isn't doing the United States a "great service". Goddamn, what a dingbat.

espoused by the founding fathers and exposed the hypocrisy that the land of the free was not as free as people would like to belive.

Snowden is a hero.

because he LOVES us, America! He wants us to be OPEN with our adversaries, have no secrets, and then they'll stop spying on us, too (after we apologize!) and the world will be a better place!

Traditionally served up with the Straw Man fallacy.

I wish we could ignore by smiley.

so they fall over and have a fit.


I think they should adopt a new one. One that better represents their belief in only looking forwards, through a self inflicted security mesh, never daring to look to the side else they may see something their dear leaders have deemed too "secret" for them to withstand. Kind of like this:

Funny how that is. I guess they love their big daddy fascist state.

because they believe Snowden is wrecking the President's second term. They never gave a shit about surveillance when Bush stepped it up. Now they're all reborn libertarians.

harm our corporate overlords. Liberals welcome those brave enough to speak our against corporate and government violations.

Snowden dared to speak out about the misadventures of the right-wing controlled spy agencies.

Thanks for pitching in. You always come up with classic lines!

She was a top aide of Clinton's - not a career State Department person. This could signal that HRC wants to move to be seen as left of Obama. (There are strong negative comments on Manning giving Wikileaks the State Department cables, but I had to google because I could not remember her commenting on Snowden. She did though - http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/Decoder-Wire/2013/0625/Hillary-Clinton-weighs-in-on-Edward-Snowden-Is-that-appropriate )

It is possible that she will use her "no" on FISA - where Obama, the then nominee, voted yes. There has to be a viable position for HRC to call for reform and reining in the NSA. (This would be good politics - especially if done before the Republican does it.) There might be a way to work with Obama on this.

Her underlings are almost certainly coached to say certain things.

"It is possible that she will use her "no" on FISA - where Obama, the then nominee, voted yes."
She knew there was enough votes to pass the 'new' execrable FISA act. If it were to be close- she would have. Old political trick.
It's either Sanders, Warren or someone equivalent. No way the Goldwater Girl.

For those with near or future interest in running for President, it was not clear which would be the better political vote.

What is interesting is that this was not a party line vote - though the Republicans were more likely to favor it. For 2016, it will be interesting to see if anyone - Obama (while in office), a Democrat or a Republican can find a good middle ground on this issue. I doubt it could become the main issue of either the primary or the general election, but being in the "best" position could make a difference at the margins.

Can't Sanders merely choose to be a Democrat? It didn't seem to be a problem for Joseph Isadore "Joe" Lieberman (and he's lot higher caliber than Joe).

Witness Bloomberg, a Dem, then a Repub, then an Indie. Witness Crist in FL a Repub, then an Indie, now a supposed Dem. Sanders could switch tomorrow if he wanted.

Any damage that is done is the government's fault, not his. From what I understand, he tried to blow the whistle internally. What the NSA is doing is just wrong. They got a new toy and think they don't have to get permission to use it.

If you don't want power taken away, don't abuse it. This is Spider-man/grade-school shit, NSA.

will be wrecked for a long, long time. I don't care how we spy on other countries, because we KNOW we're being spied on and hacked all the time. Anything that puts the US at a disadvantage internationally hasn't been "worth it"--this whole Snowden thing is great entertainment for people in this country who love to run the United States down, but the most EAGER audience for his stolen material is other countries, like China. When competitors and adversaries get excited, you know it isn't going to end well for us. So, thanks Ed for all the stuff about meta-data from cell phone towers in the US, but you probably should have stopped there, you sad little shitweasel.

Yes, because things go so well for us with the status quo. (Just exactly whatt is the "end.&quot

NSA overreach (wait, there was NSA overreach??) wasn't going to be addressed.

Our methods are being exposed. The domestic NSA stuff needs to be addressed, and probably I could have supported his efforts had he exposed only the constitutional angle of it. Why Special Ed didn't stop there, but decided to make an international "star" of himself, is beyond me.

"this whole Snowden thing is great entertainment for people in this country who love to run the United States down"
I could go to RedNekState or HotAir if I wanted to read such drivel.
Edward Snowden (or anyone that understands the situation) didn't 'run this country down'- your government did.
Now how about you defend Clapper and Alexander's lying to congress since you're on such a nativists roll?

Edit. Made my point, don't need to get a hide.

Or Alexanders lies (or the creepy situation room mimicking Star Trek's helm)? Wee!

Whatever is unconstitutional about NSA data collection and hacking in this country needs to be addressed. I have no problem with that. Nobody is my hero in this situation.

until Edward revealed the treachery.
You don't care that the head of NIA and NSA lied to Congress (and YOU)?
Really...

make the leaker into a hero or a villain. I don't give a fuck about the personalities, or agencies, involved.

That's why your defending President Obama and his 'intelligence' minions. If this had been revealed during Bush's term- you'd be apoplectic.
You know, I still believe most democrats stand for fair play and being rational but there still appears to be a small segment who care less about ideals and more about party loyalty. Sorry, I'm not a ill informed cheerleader. I call em like I see em.

The people of the United States shouldn't be collectively spied on without warrants or reasonable suspicion of terrorist activity. And collecting intelligence in other countries is what all countries do, and that's pretty much fair game. Unless you think we shouldn't do that, but that's your business.

He strikes me as a guy who is a little grandiose in his self-importance, fairly self-serving, quite cowardly, and bit off more than he could chew and ran off like a weasel, begging other countries to protect him. He could have played this much, much better than he did. But he fucked it up. And the NSA fucked up, Booz Allen fucked it up, Obama fucked up by not realizing the extent of the collections--everyone fucked it up. I'm not turning Snowden into Snidely Whiplash, but I also just don't like him or his methods.

Then you get into the.most childish name calling.

Its hilarious. Its almost like one of you doesn't realize what the other of you is typing. .. or something.

not caring what ultimately happens to them, which is where I'm at with that guy) and making someone or some organization out to be some big outlandish hero or super-duper bad guy. It seems if one doesn't much agree that Snowden's a national treasure, then obviously that person is a champion of the NSA. Or if someone doesn't like the NSA's activities, then that proves that Snowden is a national treasure. I'll reiterate--I don't like him. I also don't like some of what's been going on with the government. I don't need anyone to look up to, anyone to champion, anyone to side with. Maybe you do, that's your call.

...he could have exposed the methods without the specific content.

But his ego would not allow that.

Was it the revelation that the US had all of the Al Quada phones live-tapped and then that was leaked to the media?
Oh right, that wasn't Snowden, but rather someone in the administration, that so far hasn't been investigated for this damaging 'leak.'

Your whole memo about 'running the US down' and giving data to the Russians and Chinese is a bunch of fear-mongering debunked crap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113454494

Over the weekend, The New York Times, The Guardian and Der Spiegel published a list of over 1,000 targets monitored by the National Security Agency and the U.K.'s Government Communications Headquarters. The list, leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, included the heads of international aid groups, a senior member of the European Commission, as well as the former Israeli prime minister and defense minister.

One of the reports, from January 2009, describes how the agencies monitored four Israeli targets, foremost among them former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. The prime minister's email address was hacked into at a time when tension between Israel and the U.S. was relatively high due to the repercussions of Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip, cyberattacks on Iran's nuclear facilities, and purported Israeli intentions to strike Iran.

A month after breaking into the prime minister's email, the agents worked on breaking into then-Defense Minister Ehud Barak's email address, and that of his chief of staff, Yoni Koren. Der Spiegel reported that by monitoring the defense minister's email -- minister@modgov.il -- the U.S. and U.K. were kept abreast of Barak's policies concerning Iran's nuclear program, among others. "It wasn't a forum for top-secret operations, but it was one for many internal decision-making processes," reported Der Spiegel. According to The Times, two Israeli embassies also appeared on the list, as well as a "Israeli grey arms dealer," but the paper did not identify them.

What is report contains is an embarrassment, nothing more.

You should have added that.

What did it ever do to harm you?

I think i'll go with the opinion of the former state dept employee, if it's all the same.

Never mind the gross Constitutional violations.
Move along, nothing to see here.....

She took a two-year public service leave from Princeton to serve at Secretary Clinton's request, I believe. She went back when it was over.

Snowden isn't even leaking anything. He's hiding out.

I think clemency is the last thing Snowden would want because then he might have to come up with a really good excuse as to why he abandoned his girlfriend.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

Who happens to deeply admires Ed's patriotism. The 'others' are responsible journalists who carefully vet anything they publish.
I refuse to have the authoritarians in society rip my Bill of Rights from me. Your wretched and embittered defense of the indefensible is truly revealing. Thanks.

You do know that 4 levels of approval are required before the metadata can even be viewed, right?

Every law enforcement agency in the world has the capability of abusing its authority. The only thing that makes that less likely to happen are the laws and regulations we put into place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Rules are made to be broken. Including this one.[/center][/font][hr]

But now you're trying to use the "he abandoned his girlfriend" meme. At least the Swarm appears to be done calling her a whore.

These talking points get sicker and sicker, but those spreading the smears seem to have less and less shame.

It needed to be said.

Or your entirely made-up fantasy that Snowdens a racist.

Lashing out with anything now in desperation to derail the convo about the NSA activities.

Laughably pathetic

The first talking point by the Snowden haters was that he was a desperate loner looking for attention. Remember that line? Then the pole dancing girlfriend messed that up! Damn!

Snowden's a racist!
He left his girlfriend
Boxes in the garage
Not friendly toward his neighbors

And of course, you have a ready-made but ever-expanding set of excuses for the NSA's inexcusable behavior. You may be the last to realize it, but you damage your credibility when it becomes apparent that your hatred of Snowden has caused you to leave rational discussion behind.

to the US, they'd mysteriously find child porn on his computer or a pound of heroine in his car.

Snowden is a hero.

End of line.

And the Swarm, of course. The Swarm will be there to buzz around the forums and spread the daily TPM. The latest appears to be that Snowden's a racist. They don't have any proof Snowden's a racist but he must be because Obama's black.

I guess that's the inevitable step when 'subtle' comments about Greenwald being gay don't work.

They not only want to kill the messengers, they want to tear them to pieces! Just as I don't forgive rednecks for being racists, I don't support folks that defend Obama because he's black.
As a matter of fact, I could argue he's the perfect foil for a massive police state- Trojan Horse ver 2.0.

"His domestic surveillance revelations were OK, but what he revealed about the NSA's international operations is criminal."

Funny how all the pro-surveillance-state operatives all switch to the new talking point at the same time.

What both parties do not like is this history, and know this will not go away. It is not just what Snowden did or as in the talk show with Dick Kay a rhino blue doggie from my opinion, a caller with fever said it is how Snowden showed what he did. Snowden showed everyone how he took metadata. That’s interesting but avoids the too big to fail real reason that mainstream media avoids the insider details of very connected political business people that lie.

From my view and following the right wing methods of operations the rhetoric surrounding this treason is not addressing the inner product, really criminal, deception, the hypocrisy in real mainstream media. Notice the right wing will connect political people in the Democratic Party in everything from Acorn scandals, to Benghazi scandals especially connecting high profile Democratic persons like Hillary to anything that exploded, and every bang was her fault. We all know is not true. But Fox news will honk loud enough and long enough to change the dynamics of Duck dynasty to manufacturing switches that point to victims for homophobes. The sales of these idea logs are hopping fresh.

In Snowdens case the real juice are those private contracted companies and political people connected in that secret of secret service. Can you imagine a former national public relations company like Booze Allen and Hamilton contracted to handle very sensitive secret data. A sales machine with metadata resources beyond comprehension no one else has.

There are algorithms that can estimate behavior on the national like energy consumption, simple stuff like estimate your birth day for party time sales. It is incredible in what can be done with point to point information. This is the too big to fail advance mathematics. That derivative fraud stuff is connected to all kinds of profiteering and political legislative gerrymandering, secretly done in the theme or cover up of security and protection.

The outrage is the internal connections directly to the Bush family and the Bin Laden family part owner in this Booze Allen business. The Bin Laden Arab family documented and noted for decades as financiers to Al Qaeda plus business partners with the Bush family not only in this secret metadata collections but indirectly in arms sales via the Carlyle group. How dopy can Americans get. How much do Americans have to be hit over the head to believe Bush and Cheney committed treason.

This will set a bad precedence for those that feel that stealing confidential information and fleeing the country would eventually lead to their pardon. Snowden may have good intentions but what he did was equally wrong. Rewarding someone that broke the law and potentially putting our national security at risk should be addressed and appropriate actions should be applied.

And the other Bush war criminals?

That Obama is going to do the right thing and pardon Snowden and Manning at the end of the his presidency.

the public need to know what was going on under their reign