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bananas

(27,509 posts)
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 06:17 PM Jan 2014

Edward Snowden Clemency: The New York Times, The Guardian Urge Obama To Help NSA Whistleblower

Source: Huffington Post

The editorial boards of The New York Times and The Guardian published editorials on Wednesday, urging the Obama administration to treat Edward Snowden as a whistleblower and offer him some form of clemency.

<snip>

On Wednesday night, the editorial board of The New York Times published an editorial that not only described Snowden as a whistleblower but also called on the government to give him clemency.

Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community.


The Times noted that none of Snowden's revelations have done profound damage to the intelligence operations of the U.S., nor have his disclosures hurt national security. However, his efforts have exposed the federal government's lack of respect for privacy and constitutional protections.

When someone reveals that government officials have routinely and deliberately broken the law, that person should not face life in prison at the hands of the same government.


The Guardian, which has been at the forefront of the Snowden story from the very beginning, is also calling for clemency.

Snowden gave classified information to journalists, even though he knew the likely consequences. That was an act of courage.


<snip>

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/edward-snowden-clemency_n_4529563.html




I agree, and I'm glad to see the New York Times take this position.
I hope Obama realizes this is the "hope and change" we voted for.
103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Edward Snowden Clemency: The New York Times, The Guardian Urge Obama To Help NSA Whistleblower (Original Post) bananas Jan 2014 OP
If I were betting on an "amnesty or no amnesty" scenario, I would bet on no amnesty. MADem Jan 2014 #1
I wouldn't bet on it either, considering his escalating war on whistleblowers bananas Jan 2014 #4
Snowden isn't a "whistleblower," though--as the term is defined. MADem Jan 2014 #18
What percentage of NSA. CIA, etc. members of the American intelligence agencies are extremely right- JDPriestly Jan 2014 #59
Well, Snowden was a Paulbot; IS a Paulbot. MADem Jan 2014 #72
Whistleblower ronnie624 Jan 2014 #69
He didn't expose it, though--he gave stuff to the Chinese and the Russians. MADem Jan 2014 #74
Obama's oppression of whistleblowers will go down in history as the equivalent of FDR's Japanese JDPriestly Jan 2014 #58
Japanese internment camps? BeyondGeography Jan 2014 #63
During WWII, FDR placed the Japanese in internment camps. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #64
Really? You sure you don't want to reconsider that comment? MADem Jan 2014 #75
"We voted for"? Nice broadbrush you got there. Oh, and fuck Comrade Snowden & the NYT. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #2
He made his bed, now he has to sleep in it. demosincebirth Jan 2014 #3
Yes - Obama promised whistleblower protection, now he should act on it! bananas Jan 2014 #14
I don't think so, this is close to treason. demosincebirth Jan 2014 #16
Human rights trump treason! onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #22
Makes no sense. Both are completey different. During war time, your dear Mr Snowden demosincebirth Jan 2014 #86
during wartime? Rumold Jan 2014 #102
What the NSA is doing IS treason. n/t Indi Guy Jan 2014 #25
Amen olddad56 Jan 2014 #46
The NSA giving raw intelligence to Israel, with the handshake agreement to not use it, is treason. OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #28
Yea, right. Our govenment commiting treason. that's an oxymoron demosincebirth Jan 2014 #84
The NSA is not upholding the Constitution. They are committing treason, not Snowden. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #60
Snoden is a rat fink! demosincebirth Jan 2014 #83
Well, ad hominem always feels good, but it neither proves nor disproves anything. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #94
That's an extremely idiotic post -nt Bradical79 Jan 2014 #100
Give the man a Cigar! demosincebirth Jan 2014 #101
I think you'd be right at home in Russia. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #42
No thanks, it's too cold. I'm right at home here in sunny "Blue" California. demosincebirth Jan 2014 #82
That's odd, because California isnt an authoritarian state. I think too many freedoms rhett o rick Jan 2014 #85
Who's deriding who? I posted my opinion and get attacked because of it? Some people can't demosincebirth Jan 2014 #89
You didnt give much of an argument. You were simply bad mouthing Snowden. rhett o rick Jan 2014 #90
You never will becasue of your close mindedness. I see this is never going to end, so I'll demosincebirth Jan 2014 #91
"your close mindedness" You just had to go there. You guys cant help yourselves rhett o rick Jan 2014 #95
Obama SHOULD take this opportunity to offer amnesty+protection to ALL whistleblowers Blue_Tires Jan 2014 #5
There already is a Whistleblower Protection Act nt treestar Jan 2014 #9
Ask Manning's opinion of that Whistle blower Protection Act. RC Jan 2014 #38
It is our law and likely more than any other country has treestar Jan 2014 #68
"Eddie" would be tried, alright. RC Jan 2014 #70
He might never have been charged at all treestar Jan 2014 #71
Apparently you are not paying attention to the news. RC Jan 2014 #73
Manning released hundreds of thousands of documents he never read himself, and which struggle4progress Jan 2014 #92
He can never come back. Helen Borg Jan 2014 #6
If he came back christx30 Jan 2014 #7
The most amusing part about all of this neffernin Jan 2014 #10
It's not going to be that easy. OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #13
I just love untruthful headlines--there are so many of them, these days. MADem Jan 2014 #20
Rationalization is apparently the key to happiness. rhett o rick Jan 2014 #44
When one rationalizes that the word "envelope" means "letter" it gives one a thrill I suppose. nt MADem Jan 2014 #45
"Trust is gone." OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #12
thank you for this informative post...great research n/t Psephos Jan 2014 #35
+1!!! snot Jan 2014 #56
"He received nothing for it . . . " Major Hogwash Jan 2014 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author neffernin Jan 2014 #8
Did you watch this video? JDPriestly Jan 2014 #61
And neffernin Jan 2014 #11
It is time for President Obama to show that he is worthy of that Nobel Peace Prize onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #15
More likely that the Justice Dept will bring charges of espionage against them. ucrdem Jan 2014 #17
wow! neverforget Jan 2014 #19
The NYT editorial is full of baloney. ucrdem Jan 2014 #21
I stopped reading the article early on. Lifelong Dem Jan 2014 #53
It's pretty shameless. ucrdem Jan 2014 #54
Human rights trump treason!! onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #23
What rights specifically? ucrdem Jan 2014 #26
What secrets specifically? raindaddy Jan 2014 #33
These secrets, and these crimes: ucrdem Jan 2014 #36
And what were the "specific" secrets.... raindaddy Jan 2014 #48
These: ucrdem Jan 2014 #49
Unfortunate timing.... raindaddy Jan 2014 #51
Yes, very unfortunate -- for us. But not an accident. ucrdem Jan 2014 #55
Sorry, This is Nothing But Speculation raindaddy Jan 2014 #76
Call it an informed opinion which is apparently more than the NYT can manage. nt ucrdem Jan 2014 #80
These ones! onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #34
What do Snowden's crimes have to do with either article? ucrdem Jan 2014 #37
The US govt was violating Article 12 onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #40
The Verizon warrant was not arbitrary. ucrdem Jan 2014 #41
Collecting data from millions (billions?) of phone calls is arbitrary, no matter how you spin it. onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #43
Metadata from Verizon business network services customers, for 3 months, expiring July 19 2013. ucrdem Jan 2014 #50
I would be pleased if the US courts would rule that way but they have not: struggle4progress Jan 2014 #93
Yes, unfortunately, the US is now a full-on police state onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #96
Your empty sloganeering cannot substitute for the work of actual organizing struggle4progress Jan 2014 #97
If expressing a view is "empty sloganeering" ... onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #98
Mmmm mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #27
As the law now stands the Verizon warrant was and is perfectly legal. ucrdem Jan 2014 #29
As in... mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #31
Look, Congress makes laws, and the courts decide their constitutionality. ucrdem Jan 2014 #32
Congress could pass a law mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #65
That's really vile. ucrdem Jan 2014 #67
You're avoiding the point intentionally mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #77
"My Butt Is A Job Creator" and "Republicans Aren't Assholes." ucrdem Jan 2014 #79
Sure, you can suggest that mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #81
Good. K&R Jefferson23 Jan 2014 #24
Three things I learned from the Snowden files Jefferson23 Jan 2014 #30
wow, a truly insightful post Psephos Jan 2014 #39
thank you for sharing that thoughtful post. nt grasswire Jan 2014 #52
You're quite welcome, grasswire. Jefferson23 Jan 2014 #66
Thank you for that! Pholus Jan 2014 #78
Great post! Bradical79 Jan 2014 #99
You are very welcome..he's a smart, astute guy..feel free to post it there. n/t Jefferson23 Jan 2014 #103
k & r! nt wildbilln864 Jan 2014 #47
The NSA is scandal and a swindle polynomial Jan 2014 #62
even if granted amnesty, I would wait a few years before returning, just to be safe yurbud Jan 2014 #87
Only if he does it for Aldrich Ames and the Walkers! whistler162 Jan 2014 #88

MADem

(135,425 posts)
1. If I were betting on an "amnesty or no amnesty" scenario, I would bet on no amnesty.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 06:20 PM
Jan 2014

I just don't see that scenario as likely.

He'd have to get home by way of jail.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
4. I wouldn't bet on it either, considering his escalating war on whistleblowers
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 06:31 PM
Jan 2014
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/obama-whistleblower-website_n_3658815.html

Obama Promises, Including Whistleblower Protections, Disappear From Website

The Huffington Post | By Luke Johnson Posted: 07/26/2013 12:58 pm EDT | Updated: 07/26/2013 4:51 pm EDT

Amid the Obama administration's crackdown against whistleblowers, Change.gov, the 2008 website of the Obama transition team laying out the candidate's promises, has disappeared from the internet.

The Sunlight Foundation notes that it last could be viewed on June 8, which was two days after the first revelations from Edward Snowden (who had then not yet revealed himself) about the NSA's phone surveillance program. One of the promises Obama made on the website was on "whistleblower protections:"

Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.


The White House did not respond to multiple requests for comment on why the page was deleted. The site had offered a way to compare Obama's promises and administration actions and still can be viewed on the Wayback archive.

<snip>

MADem

(135,425 posts)
18. Snowden isn't a "whistleblower," though--as the term is defined.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 10:20 PM
Jan 2014

He didn't tell the US government what their problems were (which is what "whistleblowers" do, particularly when the subject matter is classified), he told everyone BUT the USG.... the Chinese government (masquerading as a SCMP reporter), and the Russian government, while he sequestered himself in their Hong Kong consulate pondering his next move. Oh, and every reporter that would answer his e-mails.

He was a fan of the Paulbot crowd, a political donor to the failed aspirations of the Pater Nincompoopus of that crew, and he had a "friend" in the form of Dandy Randy, with a catbird seat to make some real change (and some history for his self-aggrandizing self) on the Intel Committee in the Senate. He could have blown that whistle to his libertarian li'l buddy with the squirrel on his head. Randy coulda sputtered like a wet hen and PROTECTED Snowden. But hey, Ed didn't play it that way.

Instead, he ran to ... Russia. By way of ... Hong Kong. He thought he could skip-jump to Iceland, but he didn't Google them, and see what the relationship between this administration and the Icelandic government was looking like. He "ass-umed" that they had a shitty 'tude towards USA, because that was the case under the Bush regime. Not so today, where the trade relationship is robust. Then, he thought he'd skip through Cuba, but gee...Raul just didn't come through.

Which makes me think that "handshake" thing at Madiba's funeral went something like:

POTUS: Yo, Raul my man, thanks for the solid. That no-fly thing was just what we needed. I won't forget ya.

CASTRO: And thank you for moving the marker one step closer to elimination of sanctions, Presidente OBadass! We'll dig the commercial flights from Key West, and keep the charter flight "cultural exchangers" coming in the meanwhile. Every dollar helps! We'll get there one day, amigo! Putino is no damn help, these days!! I gotta look out for MY peeps, too!

POTUS: Cool--now let me go kiss Brazil twice! She's so funny, people believed her ire about the spying so much that we had to drop a dime on her that she's been doing the same damn thing to us, too (like everyone does--but the only one that doesn't know that is enjoying the Russian winter). Hang loose, compadre!


And I'm only half joking about that....

But hey, Ed is "happy" where he is, so he says. He's an "indoor cat" (his term) and one litter box is pretty much like another. He'll be fine where he is. He doesn't NEED to come home. He has a new home and he's all settled in. He says he's "already won!" Charlie Sheen might talk to him about that "Winning!!!" thing...!

Maybe his fans will send him a sun lamp, though--they come in handy during those long Russian winters. Not much like Honolulu, that place...! But to an indoor cat, what's the diff?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
59. What percentage of NSA. CIA, etc. members of the American intelligence agencies are extremely right-
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 04:55 AM
Jan 2014

wing Republicans or "Paulbots"? I bet at least 85-90%.

In the 50s they would have worshiped at the feet of Joseph McCarthy.

In this interview, Thomas Drake describes the Hell he was put through after he blew the whistle to his superiors at NSA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017167635

No doubt, Snowden determined that it would be futile to go to his superiors.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
72. Well, Snowden was a Paulbot; IS a Paulbot.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:47 AM
Jan 2014

He donated to the Big Paul cheese, and he was in the authoritarian "Shoot the leakers in the balls" club while he was cheering for the prostitutes of Switzerland and griping about the cost of a hamburger.

And there IS a Paulbot in the Senate he could have gone to, on the INTEL committee, too--with higher clearance AND access; smarter on these topics than the average Senate bear. Someone to whom he could have spoken in confidence. Someone who would have been able to clear a path for him.

Sorry--I have no sympathy for the guy. He had options and he didn't take them. He could have parlayed his information into fame for Ron Paul (maybe even a j-o-b if he wanted it) and immunity for himself--and he could have stayed in his job while Rand Paul championed a huge "expose" without stealing a single thing.

I think it's entirely possible that he was a turned asset. And he may have been turned when he worked in Japan, and visited Hong Kong, some years ago. It's the only explanation that makes sense. He ran quick, because he was spooked; he knew his background check was problematic and they were gonna do a real one on him for the first time ever, and his life wouldn't hold up, and he'd be screwed. His entire career was built on a CV of lies and he got caught, so he ran.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
69. Whistleblower
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:14 AM
Jan 2014

A whistleblower (whistle-blower or whistle blower)[1] is a person who exposes misconduct, alleged dishonest or illegal activity occurring in an organization. The alleged misconduct may be classified in many ways; for example, a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health and safety violations, and corruption. Whistleblowers may make their allegations internally (for example, to other people within the accused organization) or externally (to regulators, law enforcement agencies, to the media or to groups concerned with the issues).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower

MADem

(135,425 posts)
74. He didn't expose it, though--he gave stuff to the Chinese and the Russians.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jan 2014

Those governments know more than you or I do. They got the cake, the public and the media got the frosting.

The USG probably has a better idea of everything he stole; but we don't.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
58. Obama's oppression of whistleblowers will go down in history as the equivalent of FDR's Japanese
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 04:50 AM
Jan 2014

interment camps. Future generations will blame Obama for the repression they will face if these extreme, totalitarian practices are allowed to continue at the NSA and other intelligence agencies.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
75. Really? You sure you don't want to reconsider that comment?
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:52 AM
Jan 2014

Snowden sitting in a room with a computer in Russia, shooting his mouth off, giving intel to every nation in the world, is equivalent to thousands of American families, many with small children, with pregnant moms giving birth in filthy conditions, torn from their homes and imprisoned in shacks in the desert?

Oooooooh kaaaaaaaay......

All I can say is "Hyperbole, much?"

demosincebirth

(12,543 posts)
86. Makes no sense. Both are completey different. During war time, your dear Mr Snowden
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:41 PM
Jan 2014

would be facing a firing squad. that's a fact

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
85. That's odd, because California isnt an authoritarian state. I think too many freedoms
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:40 PM
Jan 2014

make you uncomfortable. The NSA is stepping on our Constitutional rights, and yet you deride those that might try to expose them.

demosincebirth

(12,543 posts)
89. Who's deriding who? I posted my opinion and get attacked because of it? Some people can't
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:52 PM
Jan 2014

stand to have another share an opposing opinion. And DU is suppose to be progressive and liberal where differences of opinions (within certain parameters) are welcome. Hmmmm.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
90. You didnt give much of an argument. You were simply bad mouthing Snowden.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:58 PM
Jan 2014

So I must guess that you hate whistle-blowers. If that's not the case, then speak up. So far I havent heard a decent argument supporting the NSA's spying.

demosincebirth

(12,543 posts)
91. You never will becasue of your close mindedness. I see this is never going to end, so I'll
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 04:04 PM
Jan 2014

end it. Where in the hell is that Ignore button?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
95. "your close mindedness" You just had to go there. You guys cant help yourselves
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jan 2014

can you.

But I admit I may be a little biased against those that hate whistle-blowers. They generally are authoritarian followers and on the wrong side of this class war. They pledge allegiance to Gen Clapper, Booz-Allen and the Carlyle Group.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
5. Obama SHOULD take this opportunity to offer amnesty+protection to ALL whistleblowers
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 06:35 PM
Jan 2014

in both government and corporate scandals....

Snowden shouldn't be the only one who would potentially benefit from this...

treestar

(82,383 posts)
68. It is our law and likely more than any other country has
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:13 AM
Jan 2014

Eddie should have used it. Then, he'd have protection and likely be here. There is no proof whatsoever that it has never been used and never protected anyone. People want to dismiss it because Eddie did. But if he'd been in good faith, he'd have tried. Then he'd at least be able to claim it didn't really work.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
70. "Eddie" would be tried, alright.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:35 AM
Jan 2014

And sentenced to a very long time in prison. Anything Edward Snowden had exposed up front, would be mostly down the memory hole by now. And anything after that suppressed, never to see the light of day. We would not know how very out of control segments of our government are or even how dysfunctional the rest of our government itself is.

What Snowden did was to expose gross unconstitutional misconduct by an agency headed by General. Keith Alexander, a power hungry, paranoid, fiefdom king, who in a more functional country, would be courts-martial, stripped of his rank and in prison by now. In fact, he probably could not have gotten far enough to have done so much damage to the reputation of this country. The shake out is just starting. Wait a while. It will get worse, as other countries stop doing business with us, US, and other countries take up the slack.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
71. He might never have been charged at all
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:39 AM
Jan 2014

And if tried, it would have been very public, could have been acquitted.

He did not expose unconstitutional conduct. They were following the laws, such as they are. If they aren't good enough for you, you have to campaign. Courts martial are also done only when certain legal standards are met, not because you deem someone power hungry.

Other countries are never going to stop doing business with us. LOL.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
73. Apparently you are not paying attention to the news.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:48 AM
Jan 2014

Other countries are already canceling contracts with Cisco, Boeing and others, and going elsewhere. It has already started.
Other countries are also reconfiguring their Internet to by-pass this country, to lessen our spying on their communications. Most of the Internet hubs are in this country. That is changing. This country is starting to be ostracized, business wise, by most of the rest of the world.

struggle4progress

(118,350 posts)
92. Manning released hundreds of thousands of documents he never read himself, and which
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 04:36 PM
Jan 2014

his supporters have never read, a fact which annihilates the whistle-blower claim

christx30

(6,241 posts)
7. If he came back
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 06:52 PM
Jan 2014

and he managed to get himself a pardon, I'd gladly buy him a beer. He seems like a good guy and he'd he interesting to talk to.

neffernin

(275 posts)
10. The most amusing part about all of this
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:04 PM
Jan 2014

is all it takes is taking a hard drive and tossing it into an envelope addressed to a reporter. Amazing how much could happen due to one small physical act.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
13. It's not going to be that easy.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:36 PM
Jan 2014
Postal Service Confirms Photographing All Us Mail
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — The Postal Service on Friday confirmed that it takes a photograph of every letter and package mailed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year — and occasionally provides the photos to law enforcement agencies that request them as part of criminal cases.

~snip~

The Times reported that the program was a more expansive version of a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, where at the request of law enforcement officials, postal workers record information from the outside of letters and parcels before they are delivered. (Opening the mail would require a warrant.)

The information is then sent to the law enforcement agency that asked for it. Tens of thousands of pieces of mail each year undergo this scrutiny, and a number of law enforcement agencies have used it, like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Department of Health and Human Services. Law enforcement officials called the mail covers an important investigative tool.

Mail covers are not subject to judicial oversight. Law enforcement agencies simply fill out a form and submit it to the Postal Inspection Service, an arm of the post office that oversees the programs.


Inside TAO: Documents Reveal Top NSA Hacking Unit
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969-3.html

Responding to a query from SPIEGEL, NSA officials issued a statement saying, "Tailored Access Operations is a unique national asset that is on the front lines of enabling NSA to defend the nation and its allies." The statement added that TAO's "work is centered on computer network exploitation in support of foreign intelligence collection." The officials said they would not discuss specific allegations regarding TAO's mission.

Sometimes it appears that the world's most modern spies are just as reliant on conventional methods of reconnaissance as their predecessors.

Take, for example, when they intercept shipping deliveries. If a target person, agency or company orders a new computer or related accessories, for example, TAO can divert the shipping delivery to its own secret workshops. The NSA calls this method interdiction. At these so-called "load stations," agents carefully open the package in order to load malware onto the electronics, or even install hardware components that can provide backdoor access for the intelligence agencies. All subsequent steps can then be conducted from the comfort of a remote computer.

These minor disruptions in the parcel shipping business rank among the "most productive operations" conducted by the NSA hackers, one top secret document relates in enthusiastic terms. This method, the presentation continues, allows TAO to obtain access to networks "around the world."


The Bigger Story Behind the AP Spying Scandal
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/the-bigger-story-behind-the-ap-spying-scandal.html

You know that the Department of Justice tapped scores of phone lines at the Associated Press.

You might have heard that the Attorney General of the United States isn’t sure how often reporters’ records are seized.

You might have learned that the Department of Justice is prosecuting a whistleblower regarding North Korea … as well as the chief Washington correspondent for Fox News who reported on what the whistleblower told him. As the Washington Post notes:

{Department of Justice investigators} used security badge access records to track the reporter’s comings and goings from the State Department, according to a newly obtained court affidavit. They traced the timing of his calls with a State Department security adviser suspected of sharing the classified report. They obtained a search warrant for the reporter’s personal e-mails.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. I just love untruthful headlines--there are so many of them, these days.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jan 2014

The hype:

Postal Service Confirms Photographing All Us Mail
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — The Postal Service on Friday confirmed that it takes a photograph of every letter and package mailed in the United States ...


But boy oh boy, it sure sounds dire! They do what FEDEX and UPS do!

The truth: ....postal workers record information from the outside of letters .....

In other words, they don't take a picture of the LETTER, they take a picture of the envelope, that's already stamped with all kinds of bar code identifiers to speed it through the system (like they wouldn't make a record of that, simply for employment/asset load and traffic purposes).
 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
12. "Trust is gone."
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:13 PM
Jan 2014

In 2007, Obama was going to filibuster any bill that gave retroactive immunity to the telecoms that helped the Bush administration illegally spy on US citizens.

Obama's wiretapping flip-flop? Yes
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jul/14/obamas-wiretapping-flip-flop-yes/

In October 2007, Obama spokesman Bill Burton issued this unequivocal statement to the liberal blog TPM Election Central: "To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."

...

But Obama knows how to drive a hard bargain, making he (and Rahm) the top recipients in the Senate and House of 2008 campaign contributions from AT&T employees and PAC.

Obama: $270,191
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000076&party=D&chamber=S&type=P&cycle=2008

Rahm: $50,650
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000076&chamber=H&party=D&cycle=2008&state=&sort=A

...

Obama supported an amendment that would have stripped telecom immunity from the measure. But after that amendment failed, Obama declined to filibuster the bill. In fact, he voted for it. It passed the Senate, 69-28, on July 9. The House passed the same bill last month, and Bush said he would sign it soon. (McCain missed the vote because he was campaigning in Ohio, but he has consistently supported the immunity plan.)

In a message to supporters, Obama defended his position, citing a phrase Democrats fought to include that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is the "exclusive" means of wiretapping for intelligence. The bill "is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year... (because it) makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court."

Snowden released the documents for OUR benefit. He received nothing for it (although he could have sold them for a lot of money.)

Obama promised to filibuster a bill that gave retroactive immunity for the telecoms that violated OUR Fourth Amendment rights; instead he took a lot of money from those same telecoms and voted for the bill.

Response to bananas (Original post)

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
61. Did you watch this video?
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 05:04 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017167635

I would normally agree with you, but Snowden did the right thing. As Thomas Drake, who saw the beginning of the lawlessness at the NSA explains, the NSA knew it was doing wrong and did not try to get legislation to support the surveillance programs precisely because they knew that Congress would not allow them to do what they are doing.

We are not a democracy if an agency in our executive branch takes unto itself the right to place all our mail and electronic communications under surveillance. Because of the NSA's superior technology, we have less freedom than the East Germans did under STASI.

As Drake explains, what the NSA is doing violates our most precious constitutional rights. That is the real crime here.

neffernin

(275 posts)
11. And
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:06 PM
Jan 2014

The Times noted that none of Snowden's revelations have done profound damage to the intelligence operations of the U.S., nor have his disclosures hurt national security.

That we know of? That funny thing about intelligence, when it is compromised those other intelligence communities who get their hands on it don't go out of their way to inform the world of such...

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
15. It is time for President Obama to show that he is worthy of that Nobel Peace Prize
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jan 2014

It's been pretty slim pickings so far ...

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
17. More likely that the Justice Dept will bring charges of espionage against them.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 10:12 PM
Jan 2014

At least against the NYT and WaPo. Not sure what we could nail the Guardian for but they richly deserve to be included in any prosecution. And no this is not sarcasm. If NYT and WaPo aided and abetted a crime of treason by receiving stolen classified material without surrendering it to US authorities I don't see why they shouldn't be prosecuted. Profiting from treason is also treason.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
21. The NYT editorial is full of baloney.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 10:41 PM
Jan 2014

What crimes did Snowden expose? What felonious activity? Oh right, none. And if the NYT needed Snowden to tell them the NSA was collecting metadata with warrants they have no business calling themselves a news organization. In other words their claims are a laughable crock of ...

sugar.

 

Lifelong Dem

(344 posts)
53. I stopped reading the article early on.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:13 AM
Jan 2014

At the point when I read this. "the enormous value of the information he has revealed".

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
23. Human rights trump treason!!
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 11:25 PM
Jan 2014

It's our duty, as human beings, not to just blindly follow the law when it violates human rights.

Remember the Nuremberg trials!

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
26. What rights specifically?
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 11:39 PM
Jan 2014

It's not "our duty" to let BAH employees pipeline state secrets to China in an effort to undermine the US government. That's called espionage and Snowden and his paymasters, aiders and abettors, including BAH, Greenwald, the NYT, WaPo, and (if possible) the Guardian richly deserve to be called on the carpet for their crimes. Those outfits are corrupt as they come.

raindaddy

(1,370 posts)
33. What secrets specifically?
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:20 AM
Jan 2014

Seems our intelligence community functioned pretty well prior to 9/11 without collecting and storing in mass innocent US citizen's phone calls, e-mail, etc.

Bush was warned at least six times we were about to be attacked by Bin Laden and he chose to ignore every one of them.. So now we're being told that our right to privacy has to be compromised because a former president was negligent?

Greenwald, Snowden and the NYT needs to be called on the carpet for their "crimes"? More like the citizens of this country are being called on the carpet because George Bush and Dick Cheney didn't do their jobs.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
36. These secrets, and these crimes:
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:29 AM
Jan 2014
Snowden's revelations quickly veered away from what he called the NSA's "domestic surveillance state" to overseas espionage by the United States. After fleeing to Hong Kong, he provided local reporters with NSA documents and told them the United States was hacking major Chinese telecommunications companies, a Beijing university and the corporate owner of the region's most extensive fiber-optic submarine cable network. That information, government officials and industry experts say, is now used by the Chinese to deflect criticisms of their hacking, both in meetings with the administration and at cyber security conferences.

The activities of the two sides, however, are vastly different in scope and intent. The United States engages in widespread electronic espionage, but that classified information cannot legally be handed over to private industry. China is using its surveillance to steal trade secrets, harm international competitors and undermine American businesses.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-edward-snowden-escalated-cyber-war-1461


p.s. to DUer ifyousayso who posted this link in GD this morning.

raindaddy

(1,370 posts)
48. And what were the "specific" secrets....
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 01:49 AM
Jan 2014

that compromised our security?

They're not only compromising US and European telecommunications companies but the heads of state of some of our allies, why would they leave out China?

We're a unregulated capitalist country "private industry hands classified information over to the government."
And for what it's worth "classified" has pretty much lost it's meaning when lobbyists are privy to energy meetings and trade
agreements while the public is kept in the dark ...

"It is ironic in a way that the government thinks it's alright to have a record of every single call that an American makes, but not alright for an American citizen to know what sovereign powers the government is negotiating away."

-Alan Grayson

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
49. These:
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 02:23 AM
Jan 2014
Snowden's clandestine efforts to disclose thousands of classified documents about NSA surveillance emerged as the push against Chinese hacking intensified. . . . On May 24, in an email from Hong Kong, Snowden informed a Washington Post reporter to whom he had given documents that the paper had 72 hours to publish them or he would take them elsewhere; had the Post complied, its story about American computer spying would have run on the day Donilon landed in Beijing to push for Chinese hacking to be on the agenda for the presidential summit.

The first report based on Snowden's documents finally appeared in The Guardian on June 5, two days before the Obama-Xi meeting, revealing the existence of a top-secret NSA program that swept up untold amounts of data on phone calls and Internet activity. When Obama raised the topic of hacking, administration officials say, Xi again denied that China engaged in such actions, then cited The Guardian report as proof that America should not be lecturing Beijing about abusive surveillance.

"Snowden couldn't have played better into China's strategy for protecting its cyber activities if he had been doing it on purpose,'' one American intelligence official says.


Same link as above.

raindaddy

(1,370 posts)
51. Unfortunate timing....
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 02:51 AM
Jan 2014

I personally don't feel compromised because Xi lied to Obama about Chinese hacking or his bringing up the Guardian report. If we're so worried about being compromised by Chinese hacking why doesn't the US corporations making billions in profit off of cheap Chinese labor take their business elsewhere? It would be the patriotic thing to do.

Even the intelligence official cited in you article admitted that Snowden wasn't intentionally trying to protect Chinese hacking.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
55. Yes, very unfortunate -- for us. But not an accident.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 03:21 AM
Jan 2014

Not if you've been paying attention. That's what makes it a crime. Per the Newsweek article Snowden tried twice to nail the US with the China docs. The first time failed when WaPo didn't take the bait right away, or so we're told; the second time worked when the Guardian stepped forward and published the story just before Xi came to Palm Springs. Frankly I think Snowden is a patsy because the British papers pulled the exact same trick with the UEA emails in their Climategate caper in Nov. 2009. That time they had Assange play the role of "leaker" and we know how that turned out:



So the long and short of it is, whoever is behind NSAgate has pulled this trick before and since and is very good at it.

p.s. more unfortunately timed "leaks" here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645

raindaddy

(1,370 posts)
76. Sorry, This is Nothing But Speculation
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:16 PM
Jan 2014

There's absolutely no proof Snowden "timed" his leaks to hurt US interests. Of course the US was embarrassed and internationally compromised by Snowden's leaks. Most people here and around the were are shocked by the extent of the NSA's secret information gathering.

Again if the government was serious about China's hacking it's not that we don't have leverage. There are other third world countries with cheap labor to profit off of.

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
34. These ones!
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:23 AM
Jan 2014

Ever heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Worth a read!

See, for example, Article 12.

Then, maybe a peek at Article 30.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
37. What do Snowden's crimes have to do with either article?
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:33 AM
Jan 2014

from your link:

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.


Collecting telephony metadata with a warrant has nothing whatsoever to do with either article.
 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
40. The US govt was violating Article 12
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:53 AM
Jan 2014

Collecting telephony metadata, as you put it, is arbitrary interference with privacy -- if arbritrary interference with privacy means anything at all!

Do you really not see this -- or are you just getting your jollies by yanking people's chains?

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
41. The Verizon warrant was not arbitrary.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 01:01 AM
Jan 2014

It named a specific carrier, cohort, and date range. What we don't know is what criminal activity the NSA issued it to investigate, but it was something specific or they wouldn't have gotten the warrant. Of course Mr. Ed and Wilbur didn't tell us all that because it wouldn't help them sell their neocon narrative.

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
43. Collecting data from millions (billions?) of phone calls is arbitrary, no matter how you spin it.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 01:15 AM
Jan 2014

Neither Big Brother nor Peeping Sam have a place in a free society.

George Orwell, and the authors of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights could see this clearly.

Somehow, you seem blind to it (either wittingly or unwittingly).

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
50. Metadata from Verizon business network services customers, for 3 months, expiring July 19 2013.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 02:47 AM
Jan 2014

Presumably landlines. Millions seems high. Definitely not billions. And it depends who's collecting it and why. In this case I'm satisfied that the request was not arbitrary. Here's the warrant:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order

struggle4progress

(118,350 posts)
93. I would be pleased if the US courts would rule that way but they have not:
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 04:39 PM
Jan 2014

it is now long-standing judicial interpretation that government may collect telephony metadata

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
96. Yes, unfortunately, the US is now a full-on police state
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jan 2014

Big Brother is watching everyone, all the time, and the courts just let it happen.

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
98. If expressing a view is "empty sloganeering" ...
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jan 2014

... then what do you call gratuitous slanging of people who express their views?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
27. Mmmm
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 11:50 PM
Jan 2014


Full of shit, you are.


Let me be a little more specific. The government broke and is breaking the law, specifically the fourth amendment. People who expose crimes are the good guys, and especially in this case where the U.S. GOVERNMENT is committing the crime and exposing it puts a person in grave danger, he's a hero.

Hope you can breathe with your head up the government's ass.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
29. As the law now stands the Verizon warrant was and is perfectly legal.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 11:59 PM
Jan 2014

When the law changes or the courts strike it down, we'll know it. So far they haven't, Richard Leon's personal intuition notwithstanding. And you can't "break" the fourth amendment, you can only break a law, and the Obama NSA hasn't.

p.s. perhaps you'd better ask your parents if Yoda is real...

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
31. As in...
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:12 AM
Jan 2014

They passed a law that said it was just fine and fucking dandy to violate the constitution. It's similar to getting felt up before boarding a plane in that we had these rules about not being allowed to search people without probable cause, but they decided that for a 100 miles around an airport was a "border" and constitution-free.

I seriously get sick and tired of people who crow about how free this country is, then turn around, open their cheeks, and beg for a hot beef injection of security.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
32. Look, Congress makes laws, and the courts decide their constitutionality.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:16 AM
Jan 2014

It's up to those two bodies to sort out the FISA legislation but in the meantime it's the Obama administration's constitutional responsibility to follow the law. You wouldn't want anyone to violate the constitution, would you?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
65. Congress could pass a law
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 10:49 AM
Jan 2014

saying the government can fuck everybody in the ass all the time, and you'd be sitting there getting pounded and saying, "but it's legal, until the courts say otherwise." The judge that ruled the other day data collection was legal gave the argument that basically said, because the government didn't intend for anyone to find out about its illegal activities, the ACLU didn't have standing against it. That's a bullshit argument if there ever was one.

But here's the real issue: we've got a country where supposdly there are protections against the government doing really bad, intrusive things. Arguably, needing some reason before searching through your stuff is a very important protection. The reality is we have to fight for those right continuously and especially when the government oversteps its authority. Unfortunately there are people like you who will wimp out and make excuses for why the government should be able to do whatever it want or say, as you have, that it's up to someone else to decide that it's wrong. While that happens, you happily continue to take it up the ass.

In the most real sense possible, you are not American.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
67. That's really vile.
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jan 2014

For one thing, the Supreme Court declared in 2003 that anal sex, which you also invoked in your previous post, is legal in all states:

On June 26, 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision in Lawrence v. Texas struck down the Texas same-sex sodomy law, ruling that this private sexual conduct is protected by the liberty rights implicit in the due process clause of the United States Constitution. This decision invalidated all state sodomy laws insofar as they applied to noncommercial conduct in private between consenting civilians and reversed the Court's 1986 ruling in Bowers v. Hardwick that upheld Georgia's sodomy law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States


Secondly. The Obama govt is not doing "really bad, intrusive things" because considerable effort has been made to clean up the really bad, intrusive behaviors of the last government. But Snowball and his confreres Assange and Greenwald never mention that. Why is that do you think?

As to your conclusion that "In the most real sense possible, you are not American," patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel and if I might expand on Samuel Johnson's famous phrase, the first refuge of a Paulbot. Present company excepted of course.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
77. You're avoiding the point intentionally
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:16 PM
Jan 2014

What I said about anal sex had nothing to do with consenting adults, it was rather a metaphor for getting screwed over by the government. You know that.

Secondly, spying on all American citizens or as you probably sanatize it, "collecting metadata," is a really bad, intrusive thing. Yes, Bush started it but yes, Obama is continuing it. Sure, it would be very hard for him politically to stop, so we need to keep pressure on him to do so. He may want that, he may not, but it doesn't matter. We still need to put pressure/political cover to stop these abuses. It's been pointed out many times before why collecting metadata is just as intrusive as directly recoding coversations. And what do you think the government is doing with this data? They say it's for fighting terrorism, but several people have pointed out that it's had no effect on that. And "fighting terrorism" has already been used to take away all sorts of rights and freedoms, just like communism was used in the 50s.

What could this data be used for, given that it's not for terrorism? The possibilities are endless and frightening, and that's why we have constitutional protections.

As for patriotism being the last refuge, that's true but more of a diversion in this case. I'm saying that you are not standing up for your rights, and are therefore allowing them to be taken away. In fact, you are making excuses for the government taking them away. An important foundation of this country, and one that should be applied across the world because it leads to better societies, is that government can't just do what it wants to people - that its powers are limited. We all have a responsibility to keep government overreach in check, simply becuase not doing so will cause harm to our society and lead to its destruction. That's why I find your willingness to "take it up the ass" from government, in the name of security, so repugnent.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
79. "My Butt Is A Job Creator" and "Republicans Aren't Assholes."
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:50 PM
Jan 2014

Those are the titles of your two and only two DU journal entries. Can I ever so politely suggest that one of us might be fixated on their sit-down?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
81. Sure, you can suggest that
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 01:29 PM
Jan 2014

It might have some truth to it - it might have a lot of truth to it.

The point stands that you are willing if not eager to give up your freedom to the government in the name of security. And you don't even get security. Like has been pointed out many times here, there is no evidence that collecting all the meta-data (spying) on all of us has stopped any terrorist attack. So I talk about butts a lot. How do you feel when the TSA grabs your butt as you go through the airport? I think I've read that it hasn't stopped any bombers either. In fact several people have gotten through "security" at airports with things they shouldn't have.

My point is this. You are so happy to give up your privacy, your rights, your freedoms in order to get just the faintist illusions of security. The real threat of losing this democracy is right in front of your face, but when Snowden shows this to you, you get mad at the messenger. Hell, more people die in a month from traffic accidents than from 9-11.

This is how I'm afraid democracy will get killed. People are so easily manipulated into giving up their rights and freedoms, and all the powers that be have to do is shout "terrorism" or "communism" and too many people just fall in line. Attacking Snowden and Assange illustrates all too well that, in my own color language, are you not only happy to spread your cheeks for "freedom," you don't want anyone showing you how much of an illusion you're living in.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
30. Three things I learned from the Snowden files
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:04 AM
Jan 2014

Dec.
29
Before the year ends, I wanted to capture a few points that stand out for me about what is unquestionably the biggest news story of 2013.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing…

The moment I read that — it’s in Glenn Greenwald’s first report from the Snowden files on June 5th — I started following, closely, the story of the surveillance state’s unveiling by Edward Snowden and the journalists who received the documents he took.

I also wrote about it: a lot. I attended Eben Moglen’s lecture series, Snowden and the future. I watched countless television segments about the revelations. Over Thanksgiving, I talked to my brother, a computer engineer, about the NSA and encryption. And of course I have had hundreds of conversations with journalists, colleagues and friends about what is without question the biggest story of 2013.

Before the year ends, I wanted to capture a few points that stand out for me from all that.

1. It’s not “privacy” but freedom. In news coverage of the Snowden files you frequently see this shorthand: “privacy advocates say…” From an AP story:

Feinstein’s committee produced a bill last week that she says increases congressional oversight and limits some NSA powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Privacy advocates say the measure codifies the agency’s rights to scoop up millions of American’s telephone records.

So you have defenders of the NSA on one side, and this creature called “privacy advocates” on the other. But at stake is not just privacy. It’s freedom. This point was made by British philosopher Quentin Skinner in a July interview on opendemocracy.net:

The mere fact of there being surveillance takes away liberty. The response of those who are worried about surveillance has so far been too much couched, it seems to me, in terms of the violation of the right to privacy. Of course it’s true that my privacy has been violated if someone is reading my emails without my knowledge. But my point is that my liberty is also being violated, and not merely by the fact that someone is reading my emails but also by the fact that someone has the power to do so should they choose. We have to insist that this in itself takes away liberty because it leaves us at the mercy of arbitrary power. It’s no use those who have possession of this power promising that they won’t necessarily use it, or will use it only for the common good. What is offensive to liberty is the very existence of such arbitrary power.

The point holds for collecting phone records. Even if no one in the government reviews whom I’ve called or texted, my liberty is violated because “someone has the power to do so should they choose.” Thus: It’s not privacy; it’s freedom. But “freedom advocates” would be an awkward construction in a news story.

2. “Collect it all” was the decisive break. Over the summer, I told Glenn Greenwald that he should title the book he’s working on, “Collect it all.” Because that was the point of no return for the surveillance state. The Washington Post took note of it in this profile of NSA director Keith Alexander:

“Rather than look for a single needle in the haystack, his approach was, ‘Let’s collect the whole haystack,’ ” said one former senior U.S. intelligence official who tracked the plan’s implementation. “Collect it all, tag it, store it. .?.?. And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it.”

This was the fateful decision. The people whom Eben Moglen calls “the listeners” passed some invisible barrier (invisible to them) when they decided to go for the whole haystack. The line they crossed separates the possibly legitimate, though dirty and distasteful tactics of spies from the impossible-to-justify, “let’s hope it never becomes public” stratagems of an out-of-control surveillance establishment.

Moglen calls Collect it All one of the “procedures of totalitarianism.” He’s not saying the U.S. has become a totalitarian state. He’s saying it adopted one of that state’s procedures. Legitimating such a move before a self-governing people is very, very difficult. And this is why the surveillance state is in such trouble, politically.

3. Snowden going public changed everything. I have written about them before, but for me these words from Edward Snowden are the most important he has uttered since his name became public. They are in Barton Gellman’s June 9th report:

Whistleblowers before him, he said, had been destroyed by the experience. Snowden wanted “to embolden others to step forward,” he wrote, by showing that “they can win.”

By deciding to go public — as the one who leaked the documents to journalists because he could no longer live with himself if he didn’t — Snowden ended the whodunit before it could start. It wasn’t only that he revealed his name, security clearance and position. It’s that he made arguments for why he did what he did. These arguments, the most important of which was that the public should decide if the surveillance state has gone too far, were met with a furious counter-attack, and of course many of his fellow citizens rejected them.

But this is precisely what he meant by “win.” Now there was a debate. It was easy to despise and reject Snowden. Much harder to despise and reject the discussion he touched off. (Obama couldn’t.) None of that would have happened if he hadn’t gone for the win by revealing himself and his motives for leaking the documents.

http://pressthink.org/2013/12/three-things-i-learned-from-the-snowden-files/

Psephos

(8,032 posts)
39. wow, a truly insightful post
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 12:50 AM
Jan 2014

"These arguments, the most important of which was that the public should decide if the surveillance state has gone too far, were met with a furious counter-attack, and of course many of his fellow citizens rejected them."

yes, this is a profound point

Summum jus, summa injuria. (The height of a law is the height of its wrong. The law is made to serve us, not us serve it.)

polynomial

(750 posts)
62. The NSA is scandal and a swindle
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 05:49 AM
Jan 2014

The NSA is a scandal and a swindle that’s revealing huge corruption.
Reflecting on this NSA whistle blower is really something for me. Snowdens Whistle Blower action happened about the same time I experienced an on the job injury at the Union Pacific Rail Road.

The interesting parallel about this is to report an accident honestly, please indulge me in my explanation. The rail road industry is governed by the Federal Employee Legislative Act, called the FELA, where an individual is protected by OSHA against retaliation. That was something I did not know a great deal about, but now finding out. However, the Union Pacific runs the crews like a cattle drive that reeks of arbitrary personal bias.

In my case the Union Pacific Rail Road with a plan intended to ditch my injury from being reported on a federal record. High level management to include those at the central office in Omaha at the Harriman Center with intentional plans scheduled a safety briefing where I was accused of creating an incident, then terminated with allegations of immorality just to make conversation and ask questions about training and safety. Isn’t that a hoot.

Talking with legal people it appears the Union Pacific is really hades on wheels. The rail road is ditching injuries or intentionally avoiding healthcare responsibility for injuries experienced in many cases across the system do to maintenance negligence.

The troubling part is the very top officials are college graduates many of that aspired to level of Magna Cum Laude with degrees in business management, yet throw around the term whistle blower when the same notion is what many call “The Challenge”. Even our political leadership and journalist use that expression prolifically.

Thinking about this thing called whistle blower, or just to challenge an action or management decision is a true tool of the people that makes the separation of powers. That simple notion of whistler or to make a challenge is intrinsically the separation of power by the Democratic people. If the citizen cannot Challenge and submit grievances to the government, there is no real Constitution. My wonder is how in the world a man, President Obama who taught the Constitutional theory for ten years can just ignore this truly powerful element.

Everyone must understand my respect of President Obama is fading rapidly. I voted for him twice and now with this news about President Obama essentially ditching his promise not to support all those that challenge the system is more than sad and disappointing, it shows his “Audacity of Hope”, that is vanishing and inspires my turn to write a book about my experience in an industry that is essentially the face of the Congress and the Senate that relates to oppression in the healthcare industry.

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