Edward Snowden Clemency: The New York Times, The Guardian Urge Obama To Help NSA Whistleblower
Source: Huffington Post
The editorial boards of The New York Times and The Guardian published editorials on Wednesday, urging the Obama administration to treat Edward Snowden as a whistleblower and offer him some form of clemency.
<snip>
On Wednesday night, the editorial board of The New York Times published an editorial that not only described Snowden as a whistleblower but also called on the government to give him clemency.
Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community.
The Times noted that none of Snowden's revelations have done profound damage to the intelligence operations of the U.S., nor have his disclosures hurt national security. However, his efforts have exposed the federal government's lack of respect for privacy and constitutional protections.
When someone reveals that government officials have routinely and deliberately broken the law, that person should not face life in prison at the hands of the same government.
The Guardian, which has been at the forefront of the Snowden story from the very beginning, is also calling for clemency.
Snowden gave classified information to journalists, even though he knew the likely consequences. That was an act of courage.
<snip>
Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/edward-snowden-clemency_n_4529563.html
I agree, and I'm glad to see the New York Times take this position.
I hope Obama realizes this is the "hope and change" we voted for.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I just don't see that scenario as likely.
He'd have to get home by way of jail.
bananas
(27,509 posts)Obama Promises, Including Whistleblower Protections, Disappear From Website
The Huffington Post | By Luke Johnson Posted: 07/26/2013 12:58 pm EDT | Updated: 07/26/2013 4:51 pm EDT
Amid the Obama administration's crackdown against whistleblowers, Change.gov, the 2008 website of the Obama transition team laying out the candidate's promises, has disappeared from the internet.
The Sunlight Foundation notes that it last could be viewed on June 8, which was two days after the first revelations from Edward Snowden (who had then not yet revealed himself) about the NSA's phone surveillance program. One of the promises Obama made on the website was on "whistleblower protections:"
Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
The White House did not respond to multiple requests for comment on why the page was deleted. The site had offered a way to compare Obama's promises and administration actions and still can be viewed on the Wayback archive.
<snip>
MADem
(135,425 posts)He didn't tell the US government what their problems were (which is what "whistleblowers" do, particularly when the subject matter is classified), he told everyone BUT the USG.... the Chinese government (masquerading as a SCMP reporter), and the Russian government, while he sequestered himself in their Hong Kong consulate pondering his next move. Oh, and every reporter that would answer his e-mails.
He was a fan of the Paulbot crowd, a political donor to the failed aspirations of the Pater Nincompoopus of that crew, and he had a "friend" in the form of Dandy Randy, with a catbird seat to make some real change (and some history for his self-aggrandizing self) on the Intel Committee in the Senate. He could have blown that whistle to his libertarian li'l buddy with the squirrel on his head. Randy coulda sputtered like a wet hen and PROTECTED Snowden. But hey, Ed didn't play it that way.
Instead, he ran to ... Russia. By way of ... Hong Kong. He thought he could skip-jump to Iceland, but he didn't Google them, and see what the relationship between this administration and the Icelandic government was looking like. He "ass-umed" that they had a shitty 'tude towards USA, because that was the case under the Bush regime. Not so today, where the trade relationship is robust. Then, he thought he'd skip through Cuba, but gee...Raul just didn't come through.
Which makes me think that "handshake" thing at Madiba's funeral went something like:
POTUS: Yo, Raul my man, thanks for the solid. That no-fly thing was just what we needed. I won't forget ya.
CASTRO: And thank you for moving the marker one step closer to elimination of sanctions, Presidente OBadass! We'll dig the commercial flights from Key West, and keep the charter flight "cultural exchangers" coming in the meanwhile. Every dollar helps! We'll get there one day, amigo! Putino is no damn help, these days!! I gotta look out for MY peeps, too!
POTUS: Cool--now let me go kiss Brazil twice! She's so funny, people believed her ire about the spying so much that we had to drop a dime on her that she's been doing the same damn thing to us, too (like everyone does--but the only one that doesn't know that is enjoying the Russian winter). Hang loose, compadre!
And I'm only half joking about that....
But hey, Ed is "happy" where he is, so he says. He's an "indoor cat" (his term) and one litter box is pretty much like another. He'll be fine where he is. He doesn't NEED to come home. He has a new home and he's all settled in. He says he's "already won!" Charlie Sheen might talk to him about that "Winning!!!" thing...!
Maybe his fans will send him a sun lamp, though--they come in handy during those long Russian winters. Not much like Honolulu, that place...! But to an indoor cat, what's the diff?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)wing Republicans or "Paulbots"? I bet at least 85-90%.
In the 50s they would have worshiped at the feet of Joseph McCarthy.
In this interview, Thomas Drake describes the Hell he was put through after he blew the whistle to his superiors at NSA.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017167635
No doubt, Snowden determined that it would be futile to go to his superiors.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He donated to the Big Paul cheese, and he was in the authoritarian "Shoot the leakers in the balls" club while he was cheering for the prostitutes of Switzerland and griping about the cost of a hamburger.
And there IS a Paulbot in the Senate he could have gone to, on the INTEL committee, too--with higher clearance AND access; smarter on these topics than the average Senate bear. Someone to whom he could have spoken in confidence. Someone who would have been able to clear a path for him.
Sorry--I have no sympathy for the guy. He had options and he didn't take them. He could have parlayed his information into fame for Ron Paul (maybe even a j-o-b if he wanted it) and immunity for himself--and he could have stayed in his job while Rand Paul championed a huge "expose" without stealing a single thing.
I think it's entirely possible that he was a turned asset. And he may have been turned when he worked in Japan, and visited Hong Kong, some years ago. It's the only explanation that makes sense. He ran quick, because he was spooked; he knew his background check was problematic and they were gonna do a real one on him for the first time ever, and his life wouldn't hold up, and he'd be screwed. His entire career was built on a CV of lies and he got caught, so he ran.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)A whistleblower (whistle-blower or whistle blower)[1] is a person who exposes misconduct, alleged dishonest or illegal activity occurring in an organization. The alleged misconduct may be classified in many ways; for example, a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health and safety violations, and corruption. Whistleblowers may make their allegations internally (for example, to other people within the accused organization) or externally (to regulators, law enforcement agencies, to the media or to groups concerned with the issues).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower
MADem
(135,425 posts)Those governments know more than you or I do. They got the cake, the public and the media got the frosting.
The USG probably has a better idea of everything he stole; but we don't.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)interment camps. Future generations will blame Obama for the repression they will face if these extreme, totalitarian practices are allowed to continue at the NSA and other intelligence agencies.
BeyondGeography
(39,380 posts)Dude...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Snowden sitting in a room with a computer in Russia, shooting his mouth off, giving intel to every nation in the world, is equivalent to thousands of American families, many with small children, with pregnant moms giving birth in filthy conditions, torn from their homes and imprisoned in shacks in the desert?
Oooooooh kaaaaaaaay......
All I can say is "Hyperbole, much?"
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)bananas
(27,509 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)would be facing a firing squad. that's a fact
Rumold
(69 posts)we've been at war for at least the last 12 years. maybe you should pay attention.
Indi Guy
(3,992 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)make you uncomfortable. The NSA is stepping on our Constitutional rights, and yet you deride those that might try to expose them.
demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)stand to have another share an opposing opinion. And DU is suppose to be progressive and liberal where differences of opinions (within certain parameters) are welcome. Hmmmm.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)So I must guess that you hate whistle-blowers. If that's not the case, then speak up. So far I havent heard a decent argument supporting the NSA's spying.
demosincebirth
(12,543 posts)end it. Where in the hell is that Ignore button?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)can you.
But I admit I may be a little biased against those that hate whistle-blowers. They generally are authoritarian followers and on the wrong side of this class war. They pledge allegiance to Gen Clapper, Booz-Allen and the Carlyle Group.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)in both government and corporate scandals....
Snowden shouldn't be the only one who would potentially benefit from this...
treestar
(82,383 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)I'm sure it is not good.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Eddie should have used it. Then, he'd have protection and likely be here. There is no proof whatsoever that it has never been used and never protected anyone. People want to dismiss it because Eddie did. But if he'd been in good faith, he'd have tried. Then he'd at least be able to claim it didn't really work.
RC
(25,592 posts)And sentenced to a very long time in prison. Anything Edward Snowden had exposed up front, would be mostly down the memory hole by now. And anything after that suppressed, never to see the light of day. We would not know how very out of control segments of our government are or even how dysfunctional the rest of our government itself is.
What Snowden did was to expose gross unconstitutional misconduct by an agency headed by General. Keith Alexander, a power hungry, paranoid, fiefdom king, who in a more functional country, would be courts-martial, stripped of his rank and in prison by now. In fact, he probably could not have gotten far enough to have done so much damage to the reputation of this country. The shake out is just starting. Wait a while. It will get worse, as other countries stop doing business with us, US, and other countries take up the slack.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And if tried, it would have been very public, could have been acquitted.
He did not expose unconstitutional conduct. They were following the laws, such as they are. If they aren't good enough for you, you have to campaign. Courts martial are also done only when certain legal standards are met, not because you deem someone power hungry.
Other countries are never going to stop doing business with us. LOL.
RC
(25,592 posts)Other countries are already canceling contracts with Cisco, Boeing and others, and going elsewhere. It has already started.
Other countries are also reconfiguring their Internet to by-pass this country, to lessen our spying on their communications. Most of the Internet hubs are in this country. That is changing. This country is starting to be ostracized, business wise, by most of the rest of the world.
struggle4progress
(118,350 posts)his supporters have never read, a fact which annihilates the whistle-blower claim
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Pardon or no pardon. Trust is gone.
christx30
(6,241 posts)and he managed to get himself a pardon, I'd gladly buy him a beer. He seems like a good guy and he'd he interesting to talk to.
neffernin
(275 posts)is all it takes is taking a hard drive and tossing it into an envelope addressed to a reporter. Amazing how much could happen due to one small physical act.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON The Postal Service on Friday confirmed that it takes a photograph of every letter and package mailed in the United States about 160 billion pieces last year and occasionally provides the photos to law enforcement agencies that request them as part of criminal cases.
~snip~
The Times reported that the program was a more expansive version of a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, where at the request of law enforcement officials, postal workers record information from the outside of letters and parcels before they are delivered. (Opening the mail would require a warrant.)
The information is then sent to the law enforcement agency that asked for it. Tens of thousands of pieces of mail each year undergo this scrutiny, and a number of law enforcement agencies have used it, like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Department of Health and Human Services. Law enforcement officials called the mail covers an important investigative tool.
Mail covers are not subject to judicial oversight. Law enforcement agencies simply fill out a form and submit it to the Postal Inspection Service, an arm of the post office that oversees the programs.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969-3.html
Responding to a query from SPIEGEL, NSA officials issued a statement saying, "Tailored Access Operations is a unique national asset that is on the front lines of enabling NSA to defend the nation and its allies." The statement added that TAO's "work is centered on computer network exploitation in support of foreign intelligence collection." The officials said they would not discuss specific allegations regarding TAO's mission.
Sometimes it appears that the world's most modern spies are just as reliant on conventional methods of reconnaissance as their predecessors.
Take, for example, when they intercept shipping deliveries. If a target person, agency or company orders a new computer or related accessories, for example, TAO can divert the shipping delivery to its own secret workshops. The NSA calls this method interdiction. At these so-called "load stations," agents carefully open the package in order to load malware onto the electronics, or even install hardware components that can provide backdoor access for the intelligence agencies. All subsequent steps can then be conducted from the comfort of a remote computer.
These minor disruptions in the parcel shipping business rank among the "most productive operations" conducted by the NSA hackers, one top secret document relates in enthusiastic terms. This method, the presentation continues, allows TAO to obtain access to networks "around the world."
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/the-bigger-story-behind-the-ap-spying-scandal.html
You know that the Department of Justice tapped scores of phone lines at the Associated Press.
You might have heard that the Attorney General of the United States isnt sure how often reporters records are seized.
You might have learned that the Department of Justice is prosecuting a whistleblower regarding North Korea as well as the chief Washington correspondent for Fox News who reported on what the whistleblower told him. As the Washington Post notes:
{Department of Justice investigators} used security badge access records to track the reporters comings and goings from the State Department, according to a newly obtained court affidavit. They traced the timing of his calls with a State Department security adviser suspected of sharing the classified report. They obtained a search warrant for the reporters personal e-mails.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The hype:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON The Postal Service on Friday confirmed that it takes a photograph of every letter and package mailed in the United States ...
But boy oh boy, it sure sounds dire! They do what FEDEX and UPS do!
The truth: ....postal workers record information from the outside of letters .....
In other words, they don't take a picture of the LETTER, they take a picture of the envelope, that's already stamped with all kinds of bar code identifiers to speed it through the system (like they wouldn't make a record of that, simply for employment/asset load and traffic purposes).
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)In 2007, Obama was going to filibuster any bill that gave retroactive immunity to the telecoms that helped the Bush administration illegally spy on US citizens.
Obama's wiretapping flip-flop? Yes
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jul/14/obamas-wiretapping-flip-flop-yes/
In October 2007, Obama spokesman Bill Burton issued this unequivocal statement to the liberal blog TPM Election Central: "To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."
...
But Obama knows how to drive a hard bargain, making he (and Rahm) the top recipients in the Senate and House of 2008 campaign contributions from AT&T employees and PAC.
Obama: $270,191
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000076&party=D&chamber=S&type=P&cycle=2008
Rahm: $50,650
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000076&chamber=H&party=D&cycle=2008&state=&sort=A
...
Obama supported an amendment that would have stripped telecom immunity from the measure. But after that amendment failed, Obama declined to filibuster the bill. In fact, he voted for it. It passed the Senate, 69-28, on July 9. The House passed the same bill last month, and Bush said he would sign it soon. (McCain missed the vote because he was campaigning in Ohio, but he has consistently supported the immunity plan.)
In a message to supporters, Obama defended his position, citing a phrase Democrats fought to include that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is the "exclusive" means of wiretapping for intelligence. The bill "is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year... (because it) makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court."
Snowden released the documents for OUR benefit. He received nothing for it (although he could have sold them for a lot of money.)
Obama promised to filibuster a bill that gave retroactive immunity for the telecoms that violated OUR Fourth Amendment rights; instead he took a lot of money from those same telecoms and voted for the bill.
Psephos
(8,032 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)You can't possibly know if that is true.
Response to bananas (Original post)
neffernin This message was self-deleted by its author.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I would normally agree with you, but Snowden did the right thing. As Thomas Drake, who saw the beginning of the lawlessness at the NSA explains, the NSA knew it was doing wrong and did not try to get legislation to support the surveillance programs precisely because they knew that Congress would not allow them to do what they are doing.
We are not a democracy if an agency in our executive branch takes unto itself the right to place all our mail and electronic communications under surveillance. Because of the NSA's superior technology, we have less freedom than the East Germans did under STASI.
As Drake explains, what the NSA is doing violates our most precious constitutional rights. That is the real crime here.
The Times noted that none of Snowden's revelations have done profound damage to the intelligence operations of the U.S., nor have his disclosures hurt national security.
That we know of? That funny thing about intelligence, when it is compromised those other intelligence communities who get their hands on it don't go out of their way to inform the world of such...
onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)It's been pretty slim pickings so far ...
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)At least against the NYT and WaPo. Not sure what we could nail the Guardian for but they richly deserve to be included in any prosecution. And no this is not sarcasm. If NYT and WaPo aided and abetted a crime of treason by receiving stolen classified material without surrendering it to US authorities I don't see why they shouldn't be prosecuted. Profiting from treason is also treason.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)What crimes did Snowden expose? What felonious activity? Oh right, none. And if the NYT needed Snowden to tell them the NSA was collecting metadata with warrants they have no business calling themselves a news organization. In other words their claims are a laughable crock of ...
sugar.
Lifelong Dem
(344 posts)At the point when I read this. "the enormous value of the information he has revealed".
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Basically they're shocked to find gambling going on at a certain cafe:
onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)It's our duty, as human beings, not to just blindly follow the law when it violates human rights.
Remember the Nuremberg trials!
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)It's not "our duty" to let BAH employees pipeline state secrets to China in an effort to undermine the US government. That's called espionage and Snowden and his paymasters, aiders and abettors, including BAH, Greenwald, the NYT, WaPo, and (if possible) the Guardian richly deserve to be called on the carpet for their crimes. Those outfits are corrupt as they come.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)Seems our intelligence community functioned pretty well prior to 9/11 without collecting and storing in mass innocent US citizen's phone calls, e-mail, etc.
Bush was warned at least six times we were about to be attacked by Bin Laden and he chose to ignore every one of them.. So now we're being told that our right to privacy has to be compromised because a former president was negligent?
Greenwald, Snowden and the NYT needs to be called on the carpet for their "crimes"? More like the citizens of this country are being called on the carpet because George Bush and Dick Cheney didn't do their jobs.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)The activities of the two sides, however, are vastly different in scope and intent. The United States engages in widespread electronic espionage, but that classified information cannot legally be handed over to private industry. China is using its surveillance to steal trade secrets, harm international competitors and undermine American businesses.
http://www.newsweek.com/how-edward-snowden-escalated-cyber-war-1461
p.s. to DUer ifyousayso who posted this link in GD this morning.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)that compromised our security?
They're not only compromising US and European telecommunications companies but the heads of state of some of our allies, why would they leave out China?
We're a unregulated capitalist country "private industry hands classified information over to the government."
And for what it's worth "classified" has pretty much lost it's meaning when lobbyists are privy to energy meetings and trade
agreements while the public is kept in the dark ...
"It is ironic in a way that the government thinks it's alright to have a record of every single call that an American makes, but not alright for an American citizen to know what sovereign powers the government is negotiating away."
-Alan Grayson
The first report based on Snowden's documents finally appeared in The Guardian on June 5, two days before the Obama-Xi meeting, revealing the existence of a top-secret NSA program that swept up untold amounts of data on phone calls and Internet activity. When Obama raised the topic of hacking, administration officials say, Xi again denied that China engaged in such actions, then cited The Guardian report as proof that America should not be lecturing Beijing about abusive surveillance.
"Snowden couldn't have played better into China's strategy for protecting its cyber activities if he had been doing it on purpose,'' one American intelligence official says.
Same link as above.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)I personally don't feel compromised because Xi lied to Obama about Chinese hacking or his bringing up the Guardian report. If we're so worried about being compromised by Chinese hacking why doesn't the US corporations making billions in profit off of cheap Chinese labor take their business elsewhere? It would be the patriotic thing to do.
Even the intelligence official cited in you article admitted that Snowden wasn't intentionally trying to protect Chinese hacking.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Not if you've been paying attention. That's what makes it a crime. Per the Newsweek article Snowden tried twice to nail the US with the China docs. The first time failed when WaPo didn't take the bait right away, or so we're told; the second time worked when the Guardian stepped forward and published the story just before Xi came to Palm Springs. Frankly I think Snowden is a patsy because the British papers pulled the exact same trick with the UEA emails in their Climategate caper in Nov. 2009. That time they had Assange play the role of "leaker" and we know how that turned out:
So the long and short of it is, whoever is behind NSAgate has pulled this trick before and since and is very good at it.
p.s. more unfortunately timed "leaks" here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037645
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)There's absolutely no proof Snowden "timed" his leaks to hurt US interests. Of course the US was embarrassed and internationally compromised by Snowden's leaks. Most people here and around the were are shocked by the extent of the NSA's secret information gathering.
Again if the government was serious about China's hacking it's not that we don't have leverage. There are other third world countries with cheap labor to profit off of.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)Ever heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
Worth a read!
See, for example, Article 12.
Then, maybe a peek at Article 30.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)from your link:
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
Collecting telephony metadata with a warrant has nothing whatsoever to do with either article.
onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)Collecting telephony metadata, as you put it, is arbitrary interference with privacy -- if arbritrary interference with privacy means anything at all!
Do you really not see this -- or are you just getting your jollies by yanking people's chains?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)It named a specific carrier, cohort, and date range. What we don't know is what criminal activity the NSA issued it to investigate, but it was something specific or they wouldn't have gotten the warrant. Of course Mr. Ed and Wilbur didn't tell us all that because it wouldn't help them sell their neocon narrative.
onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)Neither Big Brother nor Peeping Sam have a place in a free society.
George Orwell, and the authors of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights could see this clearly.
Somehow, you seem blind to it (either wittingly or unwittingly).
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Presumably landlines. Millions seems high. Definitely not billions. And it depends who's collecting it and why. In this case I'm satisfied that the request was not arbitrary. Here's the warrant:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order
struggle4progress
(118,350 posts)it is now long-standing judicial interpretation that government may collect telephony metadata
onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)Big Brother is watching everyone, all the time, and the courts just let it happen.
struggle4progress
(118,350 posts)onwardsand upwards
(276 posts)... then what do you call gratuitous slanging of people who express their views?
Full of shit, you are.
Let me be a little more specific. The government broke and is breaking the law, specifically the fourth amendment. People who expose crimes are the good guys, and especially in this case where the U.S. GOVERNMENT is committing the crime and exposing it puts a person in grave danger, he's a hero.
Hope you can breathe with your head up the government's ass.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)When the law changes or the courts strike it down, we'll know it. So far they haven't, Richard Leon's personal intuition notwithstanding. And you can't "break" the fourth amendment, you can only break a law, and the Obama NSA hasn't.
p.s. perhaps you'd better ask your parents if Yoda is real...
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)They passed a law that said it was just fine and fucking dandy to violate the constitution. It's similar to getting felt up before boarding a plane in that we had these rules about not being allowed to search people without probable cause, but they decided that for a 100 miles around an airport was a "border" and constitution-free.
I seriously get sick and tired of people who crow about how free this country is, then turn around, open their cheeks, and beg for a hot beef injection of security.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)It's up to those two bodies to sort out the FISA legislation but in the meantime it's the Obama administration's constitutional responsibility to follow the law. You wouldn't want anyone to violate the constitution, would you?
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)saying the government can fuck everybody in the ass all the time, and you'd be sitting there getting pounded and saying, "but it's legal, until the courts say otherwise." The judge that ruled the other day data collection was legal gave the argument that basically said, because the government didn't intend for anyone to find out about its illegal activities, the ACLU didn't have standing against it. That's a bullshit argument if there ever was one.
But here's the real issue: we've got a country where supposdly there are protections against the government doing really bad, intrusive things. Arguably, needing some reason before searching through your stuff is a very important protection. The reality is we have to fight for those right continuously and especially when the government oversteps its authority. Unfortunately there are people like you who will wimp out and make excuses for why the government should be able to do whatever it want or say, as you have, that it's up to someone else to decide that it's wrong. While that happens, you happily continue to take it up the ass.
In the most real sense possible, you are not American.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)For one thing, the Supreme Court declared in 2003 that anal sex, which you also invoked in your previous post, is legal in all states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Secondly. The Obama govt is not doing "really bad, intrusive things" because considerable effort has been made to clean up the really bad, intrusive behaviors of the last government. But Snowball and his confreres Assange and Greenwald never mention that. Why is that do you think?
As to your conclusion that "In the most real sense possible, you are not American," patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel and if I might expand on Samuel Johnson's famous phrase, the first refuge of a Paulbot. Present company excepted of course.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)What I said about anal sex had nothing to do with consenting adults, it was rather a metaphor for getting screwed over by the government. You know that.
Secondly, spying on all American citizens or as you probably sanatize it, "collecting metadata," is a really bad, intrusive thing. Yes, Bush started it but yes, Obama is continuing it. Sure, it would be very hard for him politically to stop, so we need to keep pressure on him to do so. He may want that, he may not, but it doesn't matter. We still need to put pressure/political cover to stop these abuses. It's been pointed out many times before why collecting metadata is just as intrusive as directly recoding coversations. And what do you think the government is doing with this data? They say it's for fighting terrorism, but several people have pointed out that it's had no effect on that. And "fighting terrorism" has already been used to take away all sorts of rights and freedoms, just like communism was used in the 50s.
What could this data be used for, given that it's not for terrorism? The possibilities are endless and frightening, and that's why we have constitutional protections.
As for patriotism being the last refuge, that's true but more of a diversion in this case. I'm saying that you are not standing up for your rights, and are therefore allowing them to be taken away. In fact, you are making excuses for the government taking them away. An important foundation of this country, and one that should be applied across the world because it leads to better societies, is that government can't just do what it wants to people - that its powers are limited. We all have a responsibility to keep government overreach in check, simply becuase not doing so will cause harm to our society and lead to its destruction. That's why I find your willingness to "take it up the ass" from government, in the name of security, so repugnent.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Those are the titles of your two and only two DU journal entries. Can I ever so politely suggest that one of us might be fixated on their sit-down?
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)It might have some truth to it - it might have a lot of truth to it.
The point stands that you are willing if not eager to give up your freedom to the government in the name of security. And you don't even get security. Like has been pointed out many times here, there is no evidence that collecting all the meta-data (spying) on all of us has stopped any terrorist attack. So I talk about butts a lot. How do you feel when the TSA grabs your butt as you go through the airport? I think I've read that it hasn't stopped any bombers either. In fact several people have gotten through "security" at airports with things they shouldn't have.
My point is this. You are so happy to give up your privacy, your rights, your freedoms in order to get just the faintist illusions of security. The real threat of losing this democracy is right in front of your face, but when Snowden shows this to you, you get mad at the messenger. Hell, more people die in a month from traffic accidents than from 9-11.
This is how I'm afraid democracy will get killed. People are so easily manipulated into giving up their rights and freedoms, and all the powers that be have to do is shout "terrorism" or "communism" and too many people just fall in line. Attacking Snowden and Assange illustrates all too well that, in my own color language, are you not only happy to spread your cheeks for "freedom," you don't want anyone showing you how much of an illusion you're living in.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Dec.
29
Before the year ends, I wanted to capture a few points that stand out for me about what is unquestionably the biggest news story of 2013.
The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing
The moment I read that its in Glenn Greenwalds first report from the Snowden files on June 5th I started following, closely, the story of the surveillance states unveiling by Edward Snowden and the journalists who received the documents he took.
I also wrote about it: a lot. I attended Eben Moglens lecture series, Snowden and the future. I watched countless television segments about the revelations. Over Thanksgiving, I talked to my brother, a computer engineer, about the NSA and encryption. And of course I have had hundreds of conversations with journalists, colleagues and friends about what is without question the biggest story of 2013.
Before the year ends, I wanted to capture a few points that stand out for me from all that.
1. Its not privacy but freedom. In news coverage of the Snowden files you frequently see this shorthand: privacy advocates say
From an AP story:
Feinsteins committee produced a bill last week that she says increases congressional oversight and limits some NSA powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Privacy advocates say the measure codifies the agencys rights to scoop up millions of Americans telephone records.
So you have defenders of the NSA on one side, and this creature called privacy advocates on the other. But at stake is not just privacy. Its freedom. This point was made by British philosopher Quentin Skinner in a July interview on opendemocracy.net:
The mere fact of there being surveillance takes away liberty. The response of those who are worried about surveillance has so far been too much couched, it seems to me, in terms of the violation of the right to privacy. Of course its true that my privacy has been violated if someone is reading my emails without my knowledge. But my point is that my liberty is also being violated, and not merely by the fact that someone is reading my emails but also by the fact that someone has the power to do so should they choose. We have to insist that this in itself takes away liberty because it leaves us at the mercy of arbitrary power. Its no use those who have possession of this power promising that they wont necessarily use it, or will use it only for the common good. What is offensive to liberty is the very existence of such arbitrary power.
The point holds for collecting phone records. Even if no one in the government reviews whom Ive called or texted, my liberty is violated because someone has the power to do so should they choose. Thus: Its not privacy; its freedom. But freedom advocates would be an awkward construction in a news story.
2. Collect it all was the decisive break. Over the summer, I told Glenn Greenwald that he should title the book hes working on, Collect it all. Because that was the point of no return for the surveillance state. The Washington Post took note of it in this profile of NSA director Keith Alexander:
Rather than look for a single needle in the haystack, his approach was, Lets collect the whole haystack, said one former senior U.S. intelligence official who tracked the plans implementation. Collect it all, tag it, store it. .?.?. And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it.
This was the fateful decision. The people whom Eben Moglen calls the listeners passed some invisible barrier (invisible to them) when they decided to go for the whole haystack. The line they crossed separates the possibly legitimate, though dirty and distasteful tactics of spies from the impossible-to-justify, lets hope it never becomes public stratagems of an out-of-control surveillance establishment.
Moglen calls Collect it All one of the procedures of totalitarianism. Hes not saying the U.S. has become a totalitarian state. Hes saying it adopted one of that states procedures. Legitimating such a move before a self-governing people is very, very difficult. And this is why the surveillance state is in such trouble, politically.
3. Snowden going public changed everything. I have written about them before, but for me these words from Edward Snowden are the most important he has uttered since his name became public. They are in Barton Gellmans June 9th report:
Whistleblowers before him, he said, had been destroyed by the experience. Snowden wanted to embolden others to step forward, he wrote, by showing that they can win.
By deciding to go public as the one who leaked the documents to journalists because he could no longer live with himself if he didnt Snowden ended the whodunit before it could start. It wasnt only that he revealed his name, security clearance and position. Its that he made arguments for why he did what he did. These arguments, the most important of which was that the public should decide if the surveillance state has gone too far, were met with a furious counter-attack, and of course many of his fellow citizens rejected them.
But this is precisely what he meant by win. Now there was a debate. It was easy to despise and reject Snowden. Much harder to despise and reject the discussion he touched off. (Obama couldnt.) None of that would have happened if he hadnt gone for the win by revealing himself and his motives for leaking the documents.
http://pressthink.org/2013/12/three-things-i-learned-from-the-snowden-files/
Psephos
(8,032 posts)"These arguments, the most important of which was that the public should decide if the surveillance state has gone too far, were met with a furious counter-attack, and of course many of his fellow citizens rejected them."
yes, this is a profound point
Summum jus, summa injuria. (The height of a law is the height of its wrong. The law is made to serve us, not us serve it.)
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Pholus
(4,062 posts)I very much appreciate the well-thought-out summary!
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Should be an OP in General Discussion. If it isn't already (haven't looked yet).
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)polynomial
(750 posts)The NSA is a scandal and a swindle thats revealing huge corruption.
Reflecting on this NSA whistle blower is really something for me. Snowdens Whistle Blower action happened about the same time I experienced an on the job injury at the Union Pacific Rail Road.
The interesting parallel about this is to report an accident honestly, please indulge me in my explanation. The rail road industry is governed by the Federal Employee Legislative Act, called the FELA, where an individual is protected by OSHA against retaliation. That was something I did not know a great deal about, but now finding out. However, the Union Pacific runs the crews like a cattle drive that reeks of arbitrary personal bias.
In my case the Union Pacific Rail Road with a plan intended to ditch my injury from being reported on a federal record. High level management to include those at the central office in Omaha at the Harriman Center with intentional plans scheduled a safety briefing where I was accused of creating an incident, then terminated with allegations of immorality just to make conversation and ask questions about training and safety. Isnt that a hoot.
Talking with legal people it appears the Union Pacific is really hades on wheels. The rail road is ditching injuries or intentionally avoiding healthcare responsibility for injuries experienced in many cases across the system do to maintenance negligence.
The troubling part is the very top officials are college graduates many of that aspired to level of Magna Cum Laude with degrees in business management, yet throw around the term whistle blower when the same notion is what many call The Challenge. Even our political leadership and journalist use that expression prolifically.
Thinking about this thing called whistle blower, or just to challenge an action or management decision is a true tool of the people that makes the separation of powers. That simple notion of whistler or to make a challenge is intrinsically the separation of power by the Democratic people. If the citizen cannot Challenge and submit grievances to the government, there is no real Constitution. My wonder is how in the world a man, President Obama who taught the Constitutional theory for ten years can just ignore this truly powerful element.
Everyone must understand my respect of President Obama is fading rapidly. I voted for him twice and now with this news about President Obama essentially ditching his promise not to support all those that challenge the system is more than sad and disappointing, it shows his Audacity of Hope, that is vanishing and inspires my turn to write a book about my experience in an industry that is essentially the face of the Congress and the Senate that relates to oppression in the healthcare industry.