Germany is neither, actually. And that's okay, but no reason to spy on the Chancellor, either.

and has survived 2 world wars, both of which were fought against Germany.

At the same time I also recognize that Germany is the strongest and largest economy in Europe, eclipsing G.B. by a significant distance.

As well while neither of them has maintained what I consider an acceptable level of defense spending and readiness to support NATO, I would put my money on Germany to have potentially better capacity to ramp up and contribute in the event of a crisis. Germany is still very much a manufacturing powerhouse. Lady Thatcher took Britain away from manufacturing and much more in the direction of financial services and a service-driven economy.

Why we would treat these two allies differently is beyond me. It is time to put the 20th century behind us and face our common challenges and potential enemies for the 21st.

US and UK banksters collude. US and UK spymasters collude. UK avoided euromess because they knew it was a crock.

Germany uses the euromess to drain the rest of Europe and colonize it into slave states. Germany is nobody's friend. And their banksters aren't even colluding with the rest of the West.

But ALL these governments abuse their 99% populations and those of other lands. I don't support the current regimes in any of the three countries, because they don't support me and my brothers and sisters of the 99%.

Word. But allow me to also emphasize as follows: ...but all these GOVERNMENTS abuse...

Let's not make the mistake of conflating governments with the people (not saying that you did, by the way).

With regards to the euromess: it was started via financial attack from the US/UK, possibly with collusion of some EU circles, and it's being used to divide the people of Europe, I believe.

Let's for once stand together - and it will have to be as "the people", clearly. Merkel kept her foor OFF the pedal when she had the opportunity to fast-track a new EU privacy directive.

take off the tinfoil hat.

I've read about the eurozone crisis for years. At the height of the (global, financial) crisis there was a very clear war of words (and downgrades) going on between these two blocs.

And the eurozone crisis started with Greece. Who helped cook the books? Goldman Sachs. Whose alumni parachuted in to "accept" the austerity measures on behalf of the people? Papademos, Goldman-Sachs.

All austerity in Europe is pushed through under threat of "the market". Who controls the market? I know it's not the 99,99%, you can decide on a name to give the others. And yes, that group will very likely include EU elites. Better now?

Here is an excerpt from one article:

The United States gave Germany a sharp rebuke Wednesday, claiming it is hampering Europe’s economic growth. The specific complaint: Germany is too geared up to produce exports. It needs to pump up consumer demand so it can buy more goods from the rest of the ailing 17-nation eurozone. On one key measure, Germany’s surplus of trade currency, the U.S. even said the country is worse than China.
This unusual faultfinding in a U.S. Treasury report is noteworthy for two reasons. One, it is very public. And two, it suggests that two of the world’s largest economies are losing the spirit of cooperation built up over decades. That often quiet cooperation was done by leaders working together to create a healthy global economy.


Read more: http://journalrecord.com/2013/11/01/guest-editorial-a-u-s-rebuke-of-germany-that-jars-opinion/#ixzz2qOx5qRP9

We can't trust Germany. They aren't truly an ally. They were host country to some of our worst terrorists. Why exactly should we agree not to spy on them? We can't trust them to keep their word that they wouldn't do the same thing.

That would be nice.

or give them any method to verify it? I suspect this is just a move by their government to try to make the whole thing go away without really doing anything about it.

and then we can all live happily ever after in the matrix.

I don't see any words, letters, statements, treaties etc able to restore trust. The violation is too massive.

innocent. Sorry, you can hate America all you want but it doesn't make Germany the good guy. Germany has caused more trouble on this planet than most countries, including the United States. If you believe that Germany doesn't try to spy on everyone as much as everyone else tries to spy on them you're kidding yourself.

of innocence, the rule of law and the right to privacy. I hope that clears things up. I have no need make such simplifications like "bad americans, good germans". I see a lot of bad governments, and a lot of good people.

Your reply was a variation on the theme "everybody is doing it". Even if they are, that still doesn't make it right.

governments? What rule of law is being broken? What right of privacy do we owe people outside our country? And if you believe we owe another country the right to privacy, how many of those countries have a law protecting American citizens from their government spying on us?

Germany, and I would trust and bet on the Germans as American allies long before I would bet on the British.

Today's Germans know what it is to live adjacent to dictatorships. Today's Germans know what it is to see watchtowers with guns sighted on your border. Today's Germans know what it means to have an ally like the US on which you can depend.

Germans work hard. They are well organized and as intelligent as the British. Germans are neat and orderly and know where their stuff is. They are the economic powerhouse of Europe because of their culture. And today's Germans are far less prone to marching in step than their grandparents were. Today's Germans are well educated and knowledgeable about the world -- sophisticated compared to their grandparents of the Third Reich.

I don't want to seem to present the Germans as the super-race. That is not at all what I am saying. But if we want allies who will stand by us, who can be trusted to keep their word and who will work hard and carry their share of the load then I would bet on the Germans.

I sound like an extreme germanophile. I am not. But if the choice of an ally were up to me and I had to choose between the UK and Germany and could not have both as allies, I would choose Germany.

On the other hand, our government's reluctance to enter into a non-spying agreement with Germany may be due to the post-WWII history of German spies for Eastern Europe within the German government or, perhaps, the strategically important geographical location of Germany. Further, it may be that the German government does not have the historical ties to our intelligence community that Britain has or that Germany's intelligence capacity is not as well developed or as similar to ours as that of Britain's.

But as far as an ally is concerned, I'd trust Germany before I would trust Britain. That is based on my experience with working with British employees and my experience living in Germany. It's very subjective.

and god help anyone who ever thought *that* would become a reality...

of distrust and thus a great insult. On top of that the Germans may perceive the fact that we are working with the British to spy on other countries presumably including Germany as a terrible insult.

It isn't so much about the perception of the German government but rather a question of the perception of the German people who, at least when I lived there, viewed the US as a close ally and friend. When I lived there, many of the then Germans viewed the US as the country that saved them from the Russians and that protected them from the fate of their countrymen who lived in East Germany. That is just my impression of how the Germans I lived among felt about Americans. I was never so well received in Europe as in the then W. Germany.

it's just that some mythical "bilateral no-spy deal" is a solution straight out of fantasyland which does nothing to address the issue in the long run...

understandings about limits on spying and agreements to share certain information. I can understand that.

and for all this talk about being "insulted", I'd hope the German gov't makes damn sure their house is ten times cleaner than everyone else's in case some 'snowden' copycat spill the beans on them as well...

given that their own security services released a "state trojan" - a whole flap about that in Germany. If anything can right this wrong, it will be the people. For one thing, the electorate have changed the coalition to include SPD, which has been very vocal on privacy rights. We'll see.

a one of them trusts the German government. They think of the two things as completely separate and not like-minded. Many of those people are military. I've long heard that Germany's government is like ours with the tea party wing that is strong enough to screw everything up, and let's face it the tea party is a giant hate group at heart.

One thing that stood out about the German people was how they stuck together in groups. They were extremely loyal to each other in my experience. It may just be how people are in very small towns, but I don't think so.