how many times to they have to try to nab her

"As popular as she is here and as pretty as she is here -- because that's what this is all about, if she was not an attractive woman we wouldn't have the group love-in -- she will be extradited if it's upheld," said Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz."

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care to ever hear alan dershowitz spout any more of his sexist opinions.

I'd care if anyone was put behind bars for 28 years if they were innocent. Looks have nothing to do with it.

I used to have such respect for him, he's such an intelligent man, so educated, Constitutional and Harvard law professor, etc., but that was just uncalled for and complete bullshit besides. Every other legal expert I've heard from about this case says the U.S. government WILL NOT extradite her back to Italy, especially given that this is like the third "trial" they've had for this case, and in this country, after her acquittal, jeopardy would have attached. Given that the Italian legal system is exceedingly fucked up, I really don't see them honoring any extradition request from Italian authorities. Her lawyers should point out to the U.S. attorney's office that Italy prosecuted geologists for not predicting an earthquake that killed people. If that isn't a dysfunctional legal system I don't know what is. I'm sure she must be afraid but I'm reasonably sure we won't be sending her back there.

It sounds like North Korea

Try someone a few times until you get the required result

SICK

Some countries have statutory laws that give double jeopardy protection in certain situations, but the US is really the only one that enshrines such broad right in the nation's Constitution. In America, the government really only gets one shot at it even if it's found that the defense was lying. A lot of countries think that's nuts.

Obviously our founding fathers knew what they were doing when it came to that. Our judicial system was largely based on fixing problems that existed in the European systems. A lot of those problems still exist today over there. In most European countries, you don't have a right to an attorney before questioning. You don't have a right to a speedy trial. And the prosecutor can appeal a not guilty verdict.

Our legal system still has a lot of problems, especially with inequality in regards to wealth (sometimes it seems you can buy a verdict in this country). But the entire world seems to have that problem too.

"That happens in most countries...the US is quite unique with double jeopardy"

Ah yes--- the first ten Amendments -----the Bill of Rights--- how quaint for Europe. And later the 14th Amendment

However our Supreme Court has done a little more about the right to counsel in the (Fourteenth) Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U.S. 335 (1963) and the right to counsel before questioning in the (Fifth) in Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966)

But neither of those will stop Police Thugs from beating a confession out of a defendant if the whole system is Rotten and Corrupt like it was in Italy in this case.

And that is why PERSONALLY I will never go visit that Rectum of the World or any other like minded Sewer

San Juan P. R. is just fine this time of year. (Its a U.S. Commonwealth)

Crime is entirely out of hand in Puerto Rico and you wouldn't catch me visiting there anytime soon. They can spot a tourist the way a leopard spots an antelope with a limp, and they will rob you and kill you, just because they can.

and we have yet to experience a single crime or even an attempted crime.

We walk around beautiful Old San Juan at night -- never a problem.

I don't know where you stay or have stayed, but neither my spouse and I

or anyone we know who visits there has ever had a problem.

A guy from my hometown got knifed to death on vacation there just last month. I read about it in the local paper, no national news outlet had it that's for sure. No doubt officials in Puerto Rico try very hard to keep these things out of the news but I see this often enough to not want to visit there. I guess you've been lucky.

I know there's considerable crime in Puerto Rico and San Juan, like all big cities,

has its share, but I never see or hear of anything in the tourist areas.

Without knowing where the poor guy from your hometown was staying,

I can't help but wonder if he wasn't just unlucky or staying in a dodgy

area. I googled the subject and here is some of what I found:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g147320-s206/San-Juan

And, once when I took an introduction to the legal system course, I was taught that in our system we'd rather send 100 guilty people free than have one innocent person convicted.

Obviously, things have changed.

I remember watching two white young brothers in an interview after they had just been released from prison after being wrongly accused of murder and had spent years on death row. They were activating against the death penalty because they could have been executed before they were proven innocent. The cop or lawyer next to them said...but only 10% of death row inmates are convicted wrongly. My God... that means for every 100 executions...10 are innocent! How horrible! From that time on I believed...better to let 100 guilty go free rather than 1 person being wrongly convicted. The horrors of an innocent person being executed is too hard to fathom. Anyway, I believe life in prison can be worse than the death penality.

People travel in Italy for lots of reasons but culture has got to be at the top of the list. The art, architecture, history and food aren't enough for you? Then perhaps, my friend, you'd be better off staying home. If you can't appreciate those qualities in a country, well, god bless ya and stay right where you are. There are some Americans, and I am one of them, that will be enjoying a Verocchio or a quintessential ragu bolognese sauce or a duomo...ciao!

NOT it's Justice system is still run like Somalia

I am beginning to wonder if you have any IDEA of what Italy is like, or what it has conferred upon Western Civilisation. Ever heard of the Renaissance and Galileo?

As for their current problems with their justice system, it seems like we in the U.S. had our own problems in that regard in the South in the 30s and 40s...Somalia? North Korea?

their legal system sucks and I doubt VERY much that we'll be sending

Amanda Knox back to it.

And I don't like what their legal system is doing to her. But as an amateur art historian I can't just flip off everything else that I find admirable about Italy and the Italians. They probably feel the same way about the U.S. and Americans.

That said, as an American, I might think twice about spending a LOT of time there, after what

happened to her and the author of "The Monster of Florence".

French colonialism in his country. Benin became independent before he was born but of course is still a francophone country. He has an educated but nuanced view of his country. My conversation with him and this one here has a ring of similarity. We discussed white racism in this country and white colonial exploitation in his country. Interestingly, he feels that France did some good things for Benin. In his opinion, Benin would be worse off without having been colonized by France, which totally surprised me. My other, and much older, student who is from Bratislava had some interesting insights about the rise of Nazism in Europe in the 1930s.

There's the good, the bad and the ugly in lots of countries around this world...

I've been there before and would love to go back. Of all the places I went in Europe, it was Italy and especially Tuscany that I loved the most. I'm kind of guessing based on what you said that you've never been there.

For a reason, I think. His brain is not working well anymore.

Involving an "ugly" woman.

That pretty people get the coverage and an ugly, fat person would get the same support? He happens to be right. If I were her, I'd run and I'd do it today.

Missing White Woman Syndrome which people complain about on this site constantly where the national news stations only bring up missing people investigations generally when the victim is an attractive, white, child/highschool/college age female.

That's why I'm surprised to see so many people trying to dispute what he said. He's absolutely right. That fact he's an asshole is completely besides the point.

from her looks, which is complete jackassery and anyone familiar with the case

knows that. There are other, very solid reasons to believe in her innocence, and, by

the way, the innocence of her boyfriend, Raphaelle Solicito.

Last edited Sat Feb 1, 2014, 02:28 PM - Edit history (1)

to favor her in the case, and that's patent bullshit...The prosecution had virtually NO case

against her OR her boyfriend. There's no question that attractive people get

more media coverage, but that doesn't mean all the coverage FAVORS the

"pretty person" especially when, as in this case, there are SO many more

factors involved, e.g. corrupt prosecutor, etc.

Maybe they hate her because she's beautiful?

Knox wouldn't have gotten 1% of the media attention or overwhelming support from the general public....

Just remember that when the first Knox trial was ongoing, DU could hardly be bothered to give a shit about Troy Davis being executed on a manufactured case, and there have been countless other examples since then....

Her support -- In this country, by the way, NOT in Italy or the UK -- was drawn

from the fact that the case against her and Raphaelle was LOUSY...Would you

like her to be convicted BECAUSE she was "young, white and pretty"?

As to Troy Davis, I'm sorry, but I remember his getting PLENTY of support

on DU and I personally signed a number of petitions favoring his acquittal.

Especially since he got off?

so of course the media would have been all over it....(It could also be argued that Simpson didn't "get off" as much as he got a temporary stay of sentence; but that's a discussion for another time)

Not quite sure why you felt the need to bring Simpson's name into this, since the people we're currently discussing aren't public figures??

there ARE other elements to her case that called for attention BESIDES her age, race, and perceived attractiveness.

The major one, I believe, is that this was was a murder charge against an American in a foreign country

being tried in a foreign court. The other "sensational" elements would be that of her being a young woman

charged with killing ANOTHER young woman in a supposed "sex game" gone wrong, a charge that

is, btw, completely unsubstantiated by any material evidence or eyewitness testimony whatsoever.

Killings by women are still relatively rare and even MORE so when it involves an alleged "sex game"

and most especially when the victim is ANOTHER woman who happened to be a foreign national in a foreign country.

It was a very unusual case, all around.

As for O.J., I had no particular reason for bringing him up other than his being an African American celebrity, which came

to mind when you used the word "celebre", as in "cause celebre".

what's his dog in this fight?...Jimmy Carter once referred to his being

"so biased" but I didn't think it was against pretty women -- Who knew?

....

I know that there are countries, that do not have the death penalty, that will not extradite anyone to the U.S. if he will face the death penalty. Can we do something similar, not extradite someone where it is clear that an innocent American citizen is convicted for no valid evidence?

Perhaps Congress can pass a law to this effect.

Perhaps the fact Italy doesn't have Double Jeopardy protection could be reason to reject extradition request.

Let's hope that the Justice Dept. is aware of this. Surprising that Dershowitz is not..

the crime of which a defendant is accused must be a crime in both countries in order for extradition to be considered.

Here the crime is murder and is a crime in both countries.

But the fact that in the U.S. system once you have been acquitted you cannot be re-tried for the same crime (as you point out no Double Jeopardy) might be a valid reason to decline to extradite.

While people around the world laugh at our legal system and consider us to be sue happy and to some extent I agree with that, the history of this case is like something out of Alice in Wonderland.

Original trial court finds her guilty. On appeal an appeals court overturns her conviction. While rare that an appeals court here would overturn a conviction (normally they will remand back to a trial court to resolve outstanding issues of fact that are material to a determination of guilt or innocence) if they did then the person cannot be retried.

The Italian high court then ordered a re-trial. And now this will go back up on appeal?

Talk about an inefficient judicial system.

Since Italy is part of the EU then any EU country could ignore extradition requests by the U.S. I don't know if the U.S. DOJ wants to go down that road.

but I think the U.S. has to at least put up a good fight on her behalf arguing insufficient evidence and Double Jeopardy. How would Italy like it if we just kept trying and retrying one of their citizens till we got the verdict desired and not one based on evidence. They can't even prove she was at the scene let alone murder. IMHO the Italian prosecutors are playing politics to save face with their public who seem to simply want to convict her because she is a foreigner and it has nothing whatsoever to do with justice. We should fight this when it happens in the U.S. and it does and its equally as wrong. That's why I feel extradition should be denied. It shouldn't matter one way or the other pretty or not pretty. She shouldn't be punished more because some find her pretty either. If I were her I'd book a flight to a Country with no extradition treaties with Italy right now while she is still free to come and go as she pleases.

There have been a number of denied extradition requests between the US and western Europe from both parties, e.g., Switzerland had denied the US request to extradite Polanski, and and Russia has refused US requests to extradite Snowden, while the US had refused an extradition to Bolivia-- I don't think any relations between the countries involved have improved or deteriorated on those grounds alone.

As for Polanski, France and Swiss pretty much followed the treaty.

We can afford to deny Italy, especially since, as another poster said, their

legal system is screwed up -- a fact that was made manifest in this

and other cases.

I wonder if she could make an argument that exercising the extradition treaty in this case would be unconstitutional as it would be a government action putting her in double jeopardy...

Edit: read the article and it mentioned this but then sort of glossed over it dismissively...

Dershowitz should be embarrassed. These trials have been a joke. I hope that she fights any extradition efforts.

I think he was pointing out that a less attractive person or a minority wouldn't be getting this kind of attention and support. After seeing how a missing white girl is the top story on the news for weeks but a missing black girl gets zero attention, how could you deny that he's right? I usually have nothing good to say about Dersh since he defended torture but he's right on this one. I also think she should run.

This is an innocent person, TWO innocent persons, accused of a murder clearly committed by another individual.

Yes, our tabloid press focuses on missing white girls too much, but America also applauds when innocent black men are cleared of crimes by re-examination of DNA evidence. We're not our bottom-feeder press.

She's not running. She's staying put in Seattle, and I believe the State Department will go to the mat for her.

And fuck Dershowitz for piling on the slut shaming.

It would be nice if America applauded innocent black me before they spent 20 years in prison. I would hope the state department would go to the mat for her - she's an American citizen who has been tried for the same crime twice. If Europe wont extradite if someone may get the death penalty, I feel we're on very strong ground refusing to turn her over. I don't see any slut shaming at all from Dersh so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

Look, common ground.

Dershowitz is doing the slut-shaming by linking her looks to anything. In fact, her attractiveness is a contributing reason to why she was found guilty - and why she was crucified as a slut in the Italian and British Tabloid Press.

Pointing out that if she wasn't a pretty white girl she wouldn't be getting this attention is not exactly slut shaming - just pointing out the truth. I really didn't follow the case much but it was kind of in the background of the news. I knew she was found guilty, then acquitted and now tried again (I can't believe they're allowed to do this). I'm pretty sure they wont ask for extradition - Italy has enough problems right now.

What you said would apply to the US, but not Europe. If anything, I think that being an American worked against her. The perception abroad of Americans is not always very positive. They portrayed her as some oversexed femme fatale. I honestly don't think that she killed this girl. I think that they already have the killer in jail.

and I never said being an American didn't work against her. Just that being a pretty white girl certainly kept her story in the news much longer than it would have for some other women.

Remember the case recently of a girl who viciously killed her Mormon boyfriend (I forgot her name)? If she had been an overweight middle-aged woman no one would have cared about what happened to her. Ditto for any case against some poor black kid from the hood.

where I suspect she's considered just as "pretty".

By harping on ONLY her looks Dersh is saying there is NO other reason to believe she's

innocent and that is just bullshit..There are a LOT of factors beyond that and any NON-biased

person who kept up with the trial would realize it.

wasn't a supporter of Amanda and Raffaele. I am so passionate about this issue and have been for some time. The case against them is a joke. Not only were they not proven to be guilty, but it was demonstrated that they COULD NOT be the killers. We know who the real killer is--and he will be getting out after only seven years, thanks to the Italian authorities.

The persecution and loathing of Amanda is rooted in misogyny. They hate Amanda Knox for her supposed sexual uninhibitedness. (She dared to own a vibrator!) They are trying to crucify her. And poor Raffaele is just roadkill. A man can fall victim to misogyny too, if a misogynistic system requires his victimization.

I agree. I think that Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded. It was a bloody crime and there's so little DNA evidence that links them to the murder. I think that she was railroaded because she's an American girl. They made her into a stereotype of what a lot of people think American women are like: entitled and trampy.

I hope that all this turns out well for her in the long run. I don't think that the US should send her back to Italy.

under Bush, you may have just dumped your credibility entirely.

The poster was referring to Dershowitz, not me.

Wait, you meant Dersh, not me, right? I'm confused.

You are correct.

I was racking my brain thinking when had I ever defended Bush's tortures.

New city, new name, new Social Security number from that guy in front of the check-cashing store - I'm thinking she's going underground.

I was going to say the same .

Doesn't matter if she's guilty or not. Too risky. Someone might decide to make an example of her.
She'll be gone months before the appeal is ripe for decision And come back only if appeal is successful.

She's not going anywhere.

That's not a knock against the OP; it's a knock against yahoo for putting the story is in the news section. It would be news if a justice department official said it. But Dershowitz's opinion isn't news.

Maybe the US will have no other option but to extradite her. The whole thing is sickening.

and this is really about the astonishingly egregious facts and procedures used by the Italians in this case.

Doubtful the US will extradite her - that would be double jeopardy.

It is fairly common in the United States for a convicted person to have his or her conviction overturned, be retried, and be reconvicted. Some are even released from prison, then returned to prison. For a famous example, Leslie van Houten of Manson family fame had her initial conviction thrown out. She was released from prison. then she was retried, and reconvicted, and returned to prison, where she's been ever since. People are fixating on the idea that Ms. Knox was "acquitted." That's certainly one interpretation of the Italian process in question, but an equally valid interpretation is that her initial conviction was simply overturned. if the Italians assert the latter interpretation, there would be no double jeopardy implied.

And Italy knows it would only be asking for humiliation if it asked.

Moreover, even if the DoJ agreed, it could still be attacked in court. And having a real court looking into the procedural history of that case is not what the Italians want.

Then again Derschowitz is a publicity hound and not much more so he's probably just trying to make a headline as these schmucks so often do.

The entire prosecution of Knox and her former BF was based on made up bullshit.
This time around it seems that the prosecution just made up a new story in place of the 'satanic ritual gone wrong' that they used in the last go-round.
Hopefully the Italian SC will acquit her again.

I really feel bad for her former BF. He lives there and has to actually deal with this bullshit case.

It is unfortunate that the former BF has to contend with the charges, but being

an Italian instead of a "foreigner" may also work to his advantage.

.....and I could easily be wrong, is that there would have to be an evidentiary hearing before an extradition would be granted. This would pretty much guarantee that Ms Knox will not be extradited.

this is ridiculous. Tell the Italians to fuck off.

She had a trial in which she was found guilty, an appeal which was set aside and now this appeal which confirmed the finding of guilt in her trial.

Guilty.

and I'm SO sorry if that upsets you.

notwithstanding the absence of the subject of "whether or not she goes anywhere" in the post to which you responded.

Personally I'd rather Italy revoked the extradition agreement if they did make the request and the US said no.

"Personally I'd rather Italy revoked the extradition agreement if they did make the request and the US said no".

Of course you would. Did you think that would surprise anyone here?

I couldn't care less if they revoke our extradition treaty with them; The case

against her and Solecito is utter crap, and she won't be sent back

to suffer even more under their joke of a "justice" system.

That is Italy's mindset in a nutshell when it comes to justice. Vengeful, easily led, rambunctious, animated, colorful, crazy, inconsistent..all adjectives describing their wackiness. It's easy to see how Burlusconi duped them for so long. They like to be entertained while their being ass raped.

She's pretty kinky too!!

Quadruple jeopardy doens't seem to be a problem in It alley.

We can't pick and choose. If the U.S. thought Italy's judicial system was a joke, then we shouldn't have signed a treaty with them. Our judicial system is a joke too, many would say. I don't think Americans are in the position to be judging other courts. The U.S. requests more fugitives from other countries than any other country on Earth. If Italy's government asks for Knox back, she has to go...period.

but I do think the Obama justice department would easily give her up. However, they would not give up the indicted CIA agents. Which points to the fact that citizens rights are not as important as the right of the US government to do what it wants with we citizens and Obama's complicitness in those endeavors.

Roman Polanski was in Italy in 1999 (see link). Probably other times as well.

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/46403-Roman-Polanski-to-Direct-Italian-Amadeus-Oct-29

called "voir dire" to screen potential jurors. We also employ sequestration of the jury in most

highly publicized trials, such as the Amanda Knox trial. This case virtually screamed for both

of these procedures, but did not receive either.

We also disallow prosecutors under formal criminal investigation for abuse of their office

to lead felony murder cases, as Italy did in this case.

The amount of times the US requests fugitives from other countries is irrelevant. We are frequently refused,

and that is something we are at liberty to do as well. Period.

.

I think they are in for quite a comeuppance if they ask. I think a good amount of people in the US justice system would love that opportunity...

... and why they think this doesn't make them look like fools on the world stage.

Probably my American bias...

And I do NOT think she should be extradited simply for this reason alone, I DO wonder if she is guilty or had anything to do with it?

Italy does have a law against double jeapordy, ratified in Italian law as Article 649. I do not expect these facts to be acknowledged by anyone here, yet, there it is.

against double jeopardy, but it has no commonality with our double jeopardy law, and our understanding of basic criminal rights.

North Korea also has free and fair elections if you ask them.

and all because Knox is pretty. LOL

could just as easily be seen as an appeals court overturning a conviction.

It is fairly common in the United States for a convicted person to have his or her conviction overturned, be retried, and be reconvicted. Some are even released from prison, then returned to prison. For a famous example, Leslie van Houten of Manson family fame had her initial conviction thrown out. She was released from prison. then she was retried, and reconvicted, and returned to prison, where she's been ever since. Currently, accused "Staircase murderer" Michael Peterson is free pending the prosecutor's decision to hold a new trial. His conviction was overturned on appeal, but he remains "in jeopardy" of a retrial.

People are fixating on the idea that Ms. Knox was "acquitted." That's certainly one interpretation of the Italian process in question, but an equally valid interpretation is that her initial conviction was simply overturned. If the Italians assert the latter interpretation, there would be no double jeopardy implied, anymore than it would be "double jeopardy" for North Carolina to retry Michael Peterson.

Shows my ignorance of legal processes!

American mass psychology. Anyone who denies this is being absurd. This has nothing to do with the facts of her case, but if she was a 55 year old overweight minority woman we wouldn't even know her name.

be they "pretty" or not.

In fact, I think it's worked against her, especially in Europe.

ANOTHER felony case, I don't know if that is the one described in "Monster of Florence".

"It's only because she'd pretty" BS into this, when that is CLEARLY not the case?

The actual killer, whose DNA was all over the victim, was already found and

convicted; The lead prosecutor was so corrupt he went straight to prison

for "abuse of power in ANOTHER felony case and there was little to NO evidence

OR motive pointing to Knox OR her Italian boyfriend.

The "a sex game gone wrong" theory had NO evidence behind it and seems

nothing more than the fantasy of a dirty old man.

time I checked Dershowitz was working at Harvard and very much available as a talking head but not employed by our government. Neither is the other attorney quoted in the article.

Of course I could be very wrong but I believe the first step is for Italy to request extradition.

with a salt lick of a size sufficient to provide for an entire forest full of animals in need of dietary sodium.