Will we ultimately fail to achieve our limited goals in Afghanistan?

Sure. Without the same loss of life or the same brutality waged by the Soviets.

But the goal is limited. The Soviets wanted to uphold their puppet government. We ostensibly want a stable government. There are elections in a few months; if we wanted Karzai we'd be busily rounding up the opposition and shooting them. In many ways the biggest winner if we win in Afghanistan is the Afghan people (not more "students" running things) and China (who'll be able to access all kinds of nifty natural resources).


At the same time, the limited goal and the fact that it's tangential to the American consciousness won't mean that we'll have the same kind of trauma as the zinc boys had in Russia, it won't be this huge loss of prestige. It's a snake pit and we know it's a snake pit, without great and glorious parades predicting the triump of whatever there.


On another level, the Taliban always claimed that they brought down the Soviet Union. When they say we'll suffer the same defeat that the Soviet's did that rather implies that in a few years the US will have collapsed, Congress and the presidency will have been abolished in favor of something else, and the US will have broken up into various parts all because of what the Taliban have done.


I'd rather see Tethys return and swallow the place up.

The US especially. Obama should pull all the troops out use them to rebuild American infrastructure.

Only one power has ever conquered - and held - the region for any real period of time... and that's the Mongols. And to be fair the only thing that ever stopped the mongols was boredom and malaria, so it's not a mark against Afghanistan's ability to deliver a beating.

And living in a place that is utterly worthless, which makes "empires" realize eventually that conquering it isn't worth the cost.

Pashtun have never been particularly good at beating anyone - except their own women. All they do is run back to their caves and wait until the latest empire realizes what useless scrub land they live on, and how inaccessible it is.

Now if you want bad-ass, talk about Nepalese Ghurka. They're not only worth a hundred times the typical Pashtun in a fight, they're honorable as well.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

But thanks for the casual racism. Looks good on you.

try to conquer it.

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline (also known as Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline, TAP or TAPI) is a proposed natural gas pipeline being developed by the Asian Development Bank.[1][2][3][4] Expected to be completed around 2017, the pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India. The abbreviation comes from the first letters of those countries. Proponents of the project see it as a modern continuation of the Silk Road.[5][6] Estimated cost of the pipeline project is reported at $7.6 billion. GAIL India may become a part of TAPI project.[7]

Contents

1 History
2 Technical features
3 Route and other information
4 See also
5 References

History

The roots of this project lie in the involvement of international oil companies in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan beginning of 1990s. As Russia, who controlled all export pipelines of these countries, consistently refusing to allow the use of its pipeline network, these companies needed an independent export route avoiding both Iran and Russia.[8][unreliable source?]

The original project started on 15 March 1995 when an inaugural memorandum of understanding between the governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan for a pipeline project was signed. This project was promoted by Argentinian company Bridas Corporation. The U.S. company Unocal, in conjunction with the Saudi oil company Delta, promoted alternative project without Bridas' involvement. On 21 October 1995, these two companies signed a separate agreement with Turkmenistan's president Saparmurat Niyazov. In August 1996, the Central Asia Gas Pipeline, Ltd. (CentGas) consortium for construction of a pipeline, led by Unocal, was formed. On 27 October 1997, CentGas was incorporated in formal signing ceremonies in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan, by several international oil companies along with the Government of Turkmenistan.[citation needed]

Since the pipeline was to pass through Afghanistan, it was necessary to work with the Taliban. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Robert Oakley, moved into CentGas in 1997. In January 1998, the Taliban, selecting CentGas over Argentinian competitor Bridas Corporation, signed an agreement that allowed the proposed project to proceed. In June 1998, Russian Gazprom relinquished its 10% stake in the project. On 7 August 1998, American embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were bombed under the direction of Osama bin Laden, and all pipeline negotiations halted, as the Taliban's leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, announced that Osama bin Laden had the Taliban's support. Unocal withdrew from the consortium on 8 December 1998, and soon after closed its offices in Afghanistan and Pakistan.[citation needed]

After September 11 attacks some conspiracy theorists claimed that possible motivation of the attacks include justifying the invasions of Afghanistan as well as geostrategic interests such as the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline project.[9] The new deal on the pipeline was signed on 27 December 2002 by the leaders of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.[10] In 2005, the Asian Development Bank submitted the final version of a feasibility study designed by British company Penspen. The project has drawn strong US support as it would allow the Central Asian republics to export energy to Western markets "without relying on Russian routes". Then-US Ambassador to Turkmenistan Ann Jacobsen noted that: "We are seriously looking at the project, and it is quite possible that American companies will join it."[11] Due to increasing instability, the project has essentially stalled; construction of the Turkmen part was supposed to start in 2006, but the overall feasibility is questionable since the southern part of the Afghan section runs through territory which continues to be under de facto Taliban control.[11]

On 24 April 2008, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan signed a framework agreement to buy natural gas from Turkmenistan.[12] The intergovernmental agreement on the pipeline was signed on 11 December 2010 in Ashgabat.[12] However, in April 2012, India and Afghanistan have failed to agree on transit fee for gas passing through Afghan territory. Consequently, Islamabad and New Delhi too could not agree on the transit fee for the segment of the pipeline passing through Pakistan, which has linked its fee structure to any India-Afghanistan agreement.[13] On 16 May 2012, the Afghan Parliament, approved the agreement on a gas pipeline and the day after, the Indian Cabinet allowed state-run gas-firm GAIL to sign the Gas Sale and Purchase Agreement (GSPA) with TürkmenGaz, Turkmenistan’s national oil company.[14]

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline (also known as Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline, TAP or TAPI) is a proposed natural gas pipeline being developed by the Asian Development Bank.[1][2][3][4] Expected to be completed around 2017, the pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India. The abbreviation comes from the first letters of those countries. Proponents of the project see it as a modern continuation of the Silk Road.[5][6] Estimated cost of the pipeline project is reported at $7.6 billion. GAIL India may become a part of TAPI project.[7]

Contents

1 History
2 Technical features
3 Route and other information
4 See also
5 References

History

The roots of this project lie in the involvement of international oil companies in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan beginning of 1990s. As Russia, who controlled all export pipelines of these countries, consistently refusing to allow the use of its pipeline network, these companies needed an independent export route avoiding both Iran and Russia.[8][unreliable source?]

The original project started on 15 March 1995 when an inaugural memorandum of understanding between the governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan for a pipeline project was signed. This project was promoted by Argentinian company Bridas Corporation. The U.S. company Unocal, in conjunction with the Saudi oil company Delta, promoted alternative project without Bridas' involvement. On 21 October 1995, these two companies signed a separate agreement with Turkmenistan's president Saparmurat Niyazov. In August 1996, the Central Asia Gas Pipeline, Ltd. (CentGas) consortium for construction of a pipeline, led by Unocal, was formed. On 27 October 1997, CentGas was incorporated in formal signing ceremonies in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan, by several international oil companies along with the Government of Turkmenistan.[citation needed]

Since the pipeline was to pass through Afghanistan, it was necessary to work with the Taliban. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Robert Oakley, moved into CentGas in 1997. In January 1998, the Taliban, selecting CentGas over Argentinian competitor Bridas Corporation, signed an agreement that allowed the proposed project to proceed. In June 1998, Russian Gazprom relinquished its 10% stake in the project. On 7 August 1998, American embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were bombed under the direction of Osama bin Laden, and all pipeline negotiations halted, as the Taliban's leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, announced that Osama bin Laden had the Taliban's support. Unocal withdrew from the consortium on 8 December 1998, and soon after closed its offices in Afghanistan and Pakistan.[citation needed]

After September 11 attacks some conspiracy theorists claimed that possible motivation of the attacks include justifying the invasions of Afghanistan as well as geostrategic interests such as the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline project.[9] The new deal on the pipeline was signed on 27 December 2002 by the leaders of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.[10] In 2005, the Asian Development Bank submitted the final version of a feasibility study designed by British company Penspen. The project has drawn strong US support as it would allow the Central Asian republics to export energy to Western markets "without relying on Russian routes". Then-US Ambassador to Turkmenistan Ann Jacobsen noted that: "We are seriously looking at the project, and it is quite possible that American companies will join it."[11] Due to increasing instability, the project has essentially stalled; construction of the Turkmen part was supposed to start in 2006, but the overall feasibility is questionable since the southern part of the Afghan section runs through territory which continues to be under de facto Taliban control.[11]

On 24 April 2008, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan signed a framework agreement to buy natural gas from Turkmenistan.[12] The intergovernmental agreement on the pipeline was signed on 11 December 2010 in Ashgabat.[12] However, in April 2012, India and Afghanistan have failed to agree on transit fee for gas passing through Afghan territory. Consequently, Islamabad and New Delhi too could not agree on the transit fee for the segment of the pipeline passing through Pakistan, which has linked its fee structure to any India-Afghanistan agreement.[13] On 16 May 2012, the Afghan Parliament, approved the agreement on a gas pipeline and the day after, the Indian Cabinet allowed state-run gas-firm GAIL to sign the Gas Sale and Purchase Agreement (GSPA) with TürkmenGaz, Turkmenistan’s national oil company.[14]

...the U.S., on the other hand, was perfectly willing to let them alone, until the Taliban sponsored Osama bin Laden and attacked us on 9/11.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Maybe read up on that Osama Bin Laden chap, who he was, where he came from, and how he got there.

Might I ask which reality your community is based in, exactly? Who won the Falklands war in your universe? Sumatra, or Sealand?

You start by making a generalization about Afghanis, I respond talking about Ghurka, and you then talk about Mongols... and racism?

I'm not sure you're bright enough to understand that "races" are not actually nationalities, which is what you started talking about. But let me pinch your chubby little checks, pat you on the head, and say You're Adorable!

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

And I'm going to ask you to not exploit women to further your own bigotry. You clearly aren't a fan of liberalism, and so I don't expect you to be especially conversant with its theories and philosophies, but that sort of bullshit doesn't generally fly.

It is a gradual process but we are slowly getting out.

like the Russian debacle will turn the next election right. This next election is the one.

Just in your world, not the real one.

But I guess that presumes that Bush et al didn't know history. It's more likely that the MIC did know history and knew that the Afghan war and the so-called War on Terror was a good way to get public money into their private pockets.

Seems to me I heard Michael Moore refer to it long ago....maybe my memory fails me.

If there is an oil pipeline, or if Afghanistan is real estate between the oil and the tankers, that would seem the real reason we're there, and shame on us.

.

if Pakistan was weakened economically and militarily.

Smart people know that the key to a win in Afghanistan is to throttle the aid to Pakistan. Unfortunately, we have put in over $130 billion into Pakistan to strengthen our own enemy. It started with the stupidity of Reagan and hasn't stopped.

The key was to never invade them. It was really just part of a scheme of the Bush Crime family and associates to plunder the treasury. And it worked.

it isn't called the Graveyard of Empires for nothing.

Like viet cong. After a few yesrs in power the realities of life will force whatever regime rules back into engagement with America. As long as we avoid the colonial occupation nation building trap all these nations will swim in US orbit and we will get the natural resources we need with mutual benefits.

Great read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

The longer we stay there, the more repressive they'll be when we leave.

It's no shame to turn tail when it's such a losing proposition.

What we have to remember about the Taliban is that people were thoroughly sick of their utter corruption before we aided the rebels and they'll be allowed back only as a part of the government, not installed as the whole.

The Taliban rulers were brutal to the country as a whole, and particularly to girls and women.

Poor Afghanistan.............

... but long experience has shown they should be called Killer-of-Empires.

-- Mal