Just so the oil companies could get back their oil?

But I am suggesting the oil companies want that oil back...and will get it if they can.
And there is no doubt in my mind the US has interfered in Latin America before...that is a fact.

It is not like VZ is withholding from the markets - they desperately need the oil revenue and will sell to anyone with right amount of dollars.

That is the problem...They hate the idea that the poor people may get some of that money in better living standards instead of going to a few elite families.

absconding with the swag from oil revenues.

And not just the charges made by the opposition?

the wealth of the Chavez family is an official government secret.

But if you take the time you'll find pictures of Diosdado Cabello's homestead previously posted in the LatAm forum.

They will not forego profits to make political points. Let's not forget that VZ does not set the price for their crude - the market does. Oil companies are buying VZ at a price they are happy with. VZ is not a threat to oil companies - the global markets ensure that.

That is the bottom line.
When they nationalized it it now goes to the government and funds projects that help people....not to a few owners who grow ever richer and more powerful.

as long as they make their money what does it matter to them?

And it has been that way in Latin America for decades...
Read up on General Smedley Buttler...google War is a racket.

And if they can gain control of the oil in VZ they can cut it off to Cuba and hope to gain that one piece of property back too.

I think you overstating the problem. With global markets they don't have to control every pissant oil producing country to make outrageous amounts of money. The word has changed a lot in the past 80 years - Smedley Butler may not be the best example today.

When there was a coup that ousted Chavez the US immediately recognized the coup leader...because they thought they had a winner and underestimated the peoples desire for change...And we were up to our neck in it...

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised - Chavez: Inside the Coup

VZ will have another one shortly if they don't get their shit together and stop destroying the economy.

No, they prefer a market with a bigger middle class that can afford to buy their products. A country where everybody is dirt poor is no use to them. You won't see any Shell gas stations in Somalia or Afghanistan.

If that were true, then why are there chronic shortages of basic goods? Why is their electrical grid in such a mess? Why is violent crime so rampant? Why is inflation so out of control?
And don't blame the US/CIA/RW/Oil Corps. for the mess.

All sweetness and light?....I don't know myself do you?...but I am sure for the elite life was good as it has always been.
And who owns the business that supply those goods?...I don't know because i am not there but perhaps you do...and if it is owned by the elite opposition do they have a vested interest to create the problem?

And do the right wing commit some of those crimes or is it all Chavez suporters?...Like the right wing tells us here in the US...if you ask a right winger here in the US all of those murders were caused by Democrats and democratic policies.

Oh, wait, the VN. economy is imploding spectacularly, crime is rampant, electric is hit and miss, oil production is down due to corruption and mismanagement.
Yeah, all that oil money goes towards making things better for the people.

the problem is that they have not transitioned to a more stable model.

hasn't helped any, but I don't believe that the US/CIA has anything to do with the present unrest in VN, like some here claim.

to pull those kind of shenanigans. So long as the oil flows, the US government and the world's financial elite really do not care how Venezuela takes care of its own economic priorities.

Sense they elected him...but democracy is a problem when people don't vote the way you want them too...and poor people are happy when they get a little, and rich people are angry when they don't get more...that is why some think money should be allowed to vote and not people.

but now, it's getting worse in that there are chronic shortages of basic goods, which means the poor can't afford them or find them, the electrical grid is failing due to the govt. refusal to invest in modernization and rampant theft and corruption of funds tasked for that, crime is out of control.
The Maduro govt is refusing to recognize and fix the corruption and instead, chooses to blame their favorite boogyman, the US/CIA without any proof except Maduro's word, and many here have bought into that fallacy.

Do you live there or have you ever lived there?

But the past is prolog...and there is no doubt that the CIA has been up to there neck in Latin America for decades...including the coup in Chile that killed Alenene and set up a military dictatorship that killed and disappeared thousands of people...so why the hell not believe Maduro sense we are capable of it and have a history of it.
Do you think we suddenly changed and are suddenly hands off a government that we opposed from the start?

and Latin America in general.
Just because the US was up to it's neck in Latin American affairs in the past doesn't mean that we're now, at this time, trying to forment a coup, other than Maduro's say so, there is no proof that the Obama Admin is involved in the present unrest and I believe Pres. Obama when he said that the US wouldn't participate nor encourage a coup against any Latin American govt.

n/t

According to figures from the World Bank, Venezuela’s National Statistics Institute (INE), the Latin American Energy Organization, and the UN Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC), Venezuela has a net generation of 4,179 kilowatt hours per capita (kilowatt hours per person). It is followed by Chile (3,393 kwh), Argentina (2,860 kwh), Uruguay (2750 kwh), Brazil (2317 kwh), Mexico (1,999 kwh), Panama (1,873 kwh) and Costa Rica (1,854 kwh).

The results of Venezuela’s latest National Census of Population and Housing, released in 2011, show that 98.5% of the country’s households have access to electricity.

“When you compare electricity in Venezuela with other nations,” Chacón explained, “we see it is the Latin American country most electricity generated per capita. Our country is almost triple the average for Latin America (1,614 kwh / person) and twice that of Brazil, which is the strongest economy in our region.”

Between 1999 and 2011, Venezuela’s capacity to generate electricity has reached twice what it was in the previous decade, from 1988-1999.

http://venezuela-us.org/2013/06/28/venezuela-has-latin-america%E2%80%99s-highest-electricity-consumption-lowest-costs/

as for inflation, compare it before and after chavez:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/inflation-cpi


As for crime, VZ's murder rate is lower than El Salvador's & Honduras's (by a long shot), and roughly comparable to Jamaica & the US Virgin Islands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Why aren't you supporting government overthrow in those places?

and I didn't say VN murder rate was the highest, I said VN had the highest violent crime rate in Latin America.
Their electrical grid is failing because of failure to modernize the system and wholesale theft of funds for the modernization.

You can blame the US/CIA all you want, but people in VN aren't buying Maduro's claim anymore.

As opposed to those countries that just give their oil away you mean? Like where exactly?

since Venezuela lacks refining capacity.

Which pisses them off to no end, because they have been trying for decades to destroy and get back "their property" that was lost when Batista was kicked out and Castro came in.

So you think we have current oil executives who are pissed off about losses the company took over 50 years ago before they ever worked there or were even born maybe?
There's been scores of oil nationalizations since then around the globe, are they mad at all those countries too or do they just buy their oil and write it off? I think you'll find modern executives couldn't care less about what happened before their watch, especially things 50 years ago. They care about profit and bonuses and stock prices and golden umbrellas. History not so much.

And end the embargo against them...but it is not.
The Mafia and the sugar companies lost there hold on Cuba before any of the CEOs were born I am sure...but still they don't forgit...and they want it back.
And the oil companies want control of the oil fields in Venezuela too, and they will get government to help them get it back as they always have.

So you think the Mafia and sugar companies stop that? How about no, the sugar companies would love another place to buy and sell sugar.....and i doubt Obama or the State Dept give a crap what the mafia wants.

However every politician is afraid to lose the Cuba-American vote in Fla and they all pander to it.

No matter what government Venz gets, none of them are going to give away their oil.
Right wing/left wing no matter, the oil will go for the global price per barrel like every other country in the world gets.

It's a real ripoff.

And where do you get that fact?...and are doctors all they get for the oil?

And I read it and it describes a deal that benefits both countries...something that they don't like?
And the reason they don't like it is because it helps Chavez and Castro politically?

Cuba even resells the oil because it doesn't have enough need for it.

the US wouldn't even *think* of acting in any way to overthrow the democratically elected gov't of a people who have decided that it was in their best interests to nationalize their countries natural resources. I mean, that would be wrong! Such a thing has *no* precedent, and it's also absolutely and obviously true that NO gentle god-fearing pro-democratic pro-freedom folk like the Koch brothers would even imagine interfering in such a way.

Glad to've cleared that up!

Zorro, I'm probably the most in agreement with your position as anyone here.

But, since you haven't understood already, I'll make it plain:
I support the moneyed elite wherever they be, and esp. so in developing nations where the moneyed elite face unfair opposition from communist/socialist ideologues who're motivated by envy and have no other objective than to steal the hard-earned wealth of the more worthy so as to put the swag in their own corrupt pockets. Corrupt commies like Chavez ( ) and now Maduro are totally undemocratic and this is esp. clear when they win elections by undemocratic means such as promising education/health-care/a-living-wage to the easily deluded masses of poor.

Like you I'm all for it when the moneyed elite send their youth out to violently protest the newly elected commies. In fact, even if generous and selfless folk like the Koch's seem to have the $$ of these protests for freedom covered, I'm eager to donate. Because that's how democracy should work, IMO, and I can't see your problem with my opinions.

Since they nationalized their oil in 1938 and threw out foreign companies they must be on the top of the list I guess..?

It's through the brilliance of questions like yours that I learn from DU.

Note that Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill, or eat, or pour muriatic acid into the frontal lobe of his brother, who Jeffrey lived with for so long. Just as the US didn't invade the country, or finance mercenary terrorists to torment the people, or actively use the CIA to fund and organize a military putch to overthrow the Mexican gov't. Without your post I would never have noticed the similarities between these two cases: just as Jeffrey Dahmer is totally innocent of the mentioned crimes against his brother, so the US is totally innocent of the mentioned crimes against Mexico: proving that both Jeffrey Dahmer and the USA are innocent entirely of anything similar to the crimes that each is said to have committed.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, EX500rider, for your response. Without it I'd never have learned the lesson I did.

Either the US and US oil companies hate countries that nationalize their oil or they don't.

Mexico nationalized theirs in 1938. So what did we do to Mexico because of that? Nothing?

And your suggestion that the US is innocent of .... what it has done in Central/South America is disgusting.

....as you claim. I didn't say anything about any other country or earlier times in history. So stuff your "disgusting" somewhere.

and the degree to which your example is puerile is the same degree to which it is disgusting.

Not particularly from the standpoint of ethics, of which it is clearly totally lacking, but from the standpoint of reason, which it is totally contradictory.

Right.....a metaphor where the US is a cannibal and Mexico is our brother... I bet that does make perfect sense to you.

You feel a bit twisted in the gut about US activity in Central/South America, e.g. under Reagan? In overthrowing democracy in Chile? In funding right-wing terrorist "contras", training them in the School of the Americas? In dealing with the reality of the past?

Tough shit, EX500rider, because no matter how averse you are to detailing the history that you *support*, that history exists and everyone who doesn't *support* that kind of policy is totally aware of it. Like I said, tough shit EX500rider - but karma bites.

What you know about how i feel about anything would be zero.

However I don't hold the Obama administration responsible for actions taken long ago by people now mostly dead and none of them in our current government. YMMV

Karma bites? I don't think 50 year old US government actions are going to affect my karma too much...lol

you know, innuendos, insults and falsehoods.

Hmmm -
between the two of you, there doesn't equal one brain.

and your refusal to link to a post where I said ANYTHING like that.

Only an idiot would suppose I did!

because you can't provide links because none exist which would make you a ...., well I don't want to get a post hidden by saying what I really think, which is, I suspect, you ultimate goal, to get one or both of us to say something hideworthy.

Welp, not going to play tonight.

Just wise beyond my years.
Which will happen to you when you grow up to be an adult.

....you'll feel better tomorrow i hope.

Now that's the funniest thing you've said all night.
Pretty sure that we feel much differently than you, matter of fact, here's what I picture you're doing right now.

you're now blaming the current VN problems on past US admins trangressions?
Can you be anymore unrealistic?

I've asked several times for proof with credible links that the current unrest in VN is a US/CIA plot to underming and overthrow the Maduro regime and all you've come up with so far is a convoluted theory that because of past deeds by long gone US admins, then it must still be going on.

VN govt., that's nothing more than the fantasy of a paranoid Maduro that refuses to face up to the fact that his regime is so corrupt and the country's problems are the results of years of widespread corruption and total mismanagement of the economy by govt officials.

It's something I'd expect on a different forum than DU.

So, you're saying that the Maduro regime had nothing to do with the current problems in VN?
According to my wife's many relatives who still reside in VN, few believe the Maduro claim that this is a US/CIA plot to undermine and remove him and install a RW govt.

VN is a powder keg waiting for a match to start the explosion and Maduro is holding the match.

I would be surprised if the Chavistas aren't thrown out on their collective asses in the next elections.

That says it for your desires, sked14. That says it for where *you* are at.

wife's relates.

You have no idea of where I'm at but, let me educate you, my wife and I don't want any coup attempt, it would be detrimental to her relatives, we both want a democratic transfer of power with fair elections.

And, I'll wager that the Chavistas will be thrown out of office next elections due to their abject failure to reign in the failure of the economy.

You infer that I support other than VN democracy, why don't you link to a post of mine where I support anything other than VN. democracy.
I'll wait.

it's that you can't link because you can't find one.

is the result of US/CIA interference in VN politics.
Where's the evidence?

Actually if it's my opinion and it was then, yes, most tortured metaphor ever. I'm afraid "No it isn't" was a kindergarten response you may wanna rethink.

Why don't you check this link "http://www.ntn24.com/" and start learning about the situation in Venezuela.

Since Chavez took power, Venezuela has been run by Cuba, Maduro is an incompetent and his only recourse is violence. There are proofs that Cuba sent last Saturday a flight with snipers, he has closed all media, and many young people were killed during a peaceful demonstration last week, these are university students, he has also jailed a high number of them for peacefully demonstrating, that is not democracy.

Never in the history of Venezuela did people have to fight for food in their supermarkets, there are lines to buy food and basic needs, there are no medicines, no doctors in hospitals, the best brains from the country have had to leave because of persecution.

I have family who lives there, I know what is going on, but it doesn't take long to figure it out if you go on youtube or facebook to find videos of the atrocities that are being committed there by the government.

You cannot be a fanatic and any news like the one we are discussing to take it as the USA being bad, on the contrary, most Venezuelans are upset that the US government has allowed these crooks to exist for so long, but then again, that is the cause of the Venezuelan people.

Reactions like yours do not help anything and anyone, it is the same problem why people everywhere always vote against their interests, it happens here and everywhere.

The myth that Chavez and their gang of thieves has made Venezuelan life better is just propaganda well executed by the Castro brothers.

Think about this, since when has Cuba been an exporter of oil? Cuba does not have oil, but Chavez has been given it to them, and of course now Maduro and they export Venezuelan oil as theirs, if that is not crazy and corrupt I don't know what is.

Chavez was killed in Cuba, he was starting to make decision on his own, as it usually happens with that type of dictators, and Cuba would not have any of it.

Please, get educated about the facts. Last week they tried to expropriate my cousins business but they could not find any irregularities and a friend in the government also intervened, but his business was given a penalty as a "pro-active" measure so that in the future they will not commit any irregularities, how irregular is that? Also, where do you think the "penalty" money ends up? In their pockets.

Diosdado Cabello, the biggest thief in the Venezuelan administration said last week that the Venezuelan money was his, and he could do whatever he deemed necessary with it, which will be to send it to his huge bank accounts in the USA and Europe.

And read the posts and watched the videos posted...it seems there are two sides to this story

And who are the students but the children of the eliet?...and it is they who benefited by the rule of the dictatorship of the past...not the people.

I watched one video that was supposed to show Chavestas robing cars and breaking the windows out...but they were young well dressed with maskes...more like the students than the ordinary people...but they blamed it on them anyway.

And I don't buy the charges that Cuba is the boogyman...but it seems the right wing uses it anyway...just like in this country that uses communism even today after it fell in the country of Russia.
And BTW, I also am familiar with the history of Cuba...are you?...Before Castro, major corporations in the US owned 90% of the land and the US mafia ran Havana and used it for vice.
We have no business here in the US maintaining a corrupt elite in Latin America so that our corporations can exploit the resources of their land...IMO...they have the right to self determination in their own land, and Maduro was elected in a fair election.

But there I found this also....The Revolution will not be televised...a documentary that shows the coup against Chavez...worth watching for those who don't know what went on and is probably going on now.

In fact, the student who got killed in front of the security forces probably shot himself in the back of his head too...

Look at the students shooting here! Check how well the USAID/NED copied the Venezuelan police dresses... simply unbelievable, right?

And did they or did they not throw rocks and have guns themselves?...and did they engage in violent protest or not?

I don't know because I am not there...but I see two sides presented, and I know full well the CIA in this country has been trying to bring down this government for a long time...that is clear...and So count me skeptical that this is a spontaneous protest and not orchestrated by powers that want back the power they lost through the democratic process.

How many of them come from poor people?...any at all?...have any numbers?
And I am sure that not every student did that...unless you have some facts I am not aware of.

Since he put his cronies in everywhere.