particularly if their injuries are psychiatric in nature.

"We" did not sign off on this man being fit for combat duty...that was done by some quack mind fucker, who was probably playing the CYA game!

And this leads to the chain of command all the way up to the Pentagon...last time I checked I didn't work for the DoD, do you?

We need to get off this whole guilt trip...because it's getting f***ing annoying when people keep saying "we", as if "we" had anything to do with the decision made by this soldier's chain of command!

We, through our elected leaders, do have something to do with how damaged soldiers are cared for. We can effect DoD policy. We did have a lot to do with the removal of DADT.

You live in this country, you own it. There are no innocents here. We are all complicit.

Of course each of us can always do more,
of course each of us can do better.
But this mess is not our fault, and I don't
own the crimes the US government commits.

When I grew up it was "my country right or wrong"
and a bunch of us said horseshit, that's not what human life is for.

...to oust "their bastard(s)". They are doing their damndest, to take ownership.

Americans are still at the stage of flapping their hands and squealing, "What do I do? What do I do?" when their legal protests meet illegal resistance.

Lost control? Bull-FUCKING-shit. Gave it away for worthless promises: promises of perpetually cheap oil and impossibly low taxes; promises that the nasty gays will be shoved back in their closets; promises that the filthy job stealing wetbacks will be pushed back to their side of the river; promises to be tough on crime and even tougher on perverts.

in a Federalist letter. We don't value our freedoms enough to hang onto them.

Last edited Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you saying the Syrians were complicit then? By your logic, they were merely negligent or complicit in the decades before this when their country had no freedom and they weren't rebelling. Also by your logic, I'm complicit or irresponsible unless I put myself in eminent threat of death. Won't all of the most responsible people have the highest mortality rate? Is that really sound, Darwinistic judgment?

I use Syria as an extreme example, and I thought my point couldn't be missed with it: if someone is within the collective entity of a country and is called a citizen, that doesn't mean they are responsible for anything the government does.

Syria's people have not had control of their government in our lifetime. The government didn't even pretend they had a say. So, now they're putting their lives on the line, and I don't denigrate, but admire their sacrifices.

"We," that are people who are not so so manipulated by racism, destructive or empty promises, homophobia and so on, have lost control of this government. For "we" meaning all citizens and residents collectively, propaganda is one instrument to neutralize the manipulate. It is very powerful, and every human being is vulnerable to it. Even extremely well-educated people can fall for it.

And for people who it doesn't manipulate, it neutralizes, meaning that the latter are not in power.

Americans, or I guess, those of us on the left, flap our hands about it because it's very perilous and the stakes are high, not just us. Revolutions in the 20th century had a very discouraging record. It seems to lose is horrible and to win might just be worse unless you watch your step.

"We have lost control of this government, and it pretends to govern just enough that rebellion hasn't started to roll yet."
"We" are the government. "...by, of and for the People..." If "we" have lost control of it, the fault is "ours".


"I've done nothing to contribute to this, and wasn't consulted on any of it."
Did you vote? Did you attempt to influence anyone elses vote?

Last edited Tue Mar 13, 2012, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

And if we have "lost" control of it, it's questionable that a government "by, of and for the People" was ever an accurate description on anything but the most superficial level. It was Lincoln's later interpretation, and he had vested interest in putting it the right way. Argument from authority fallacy: just because Lincoln said it, doesn't mean it was true.

Did I vote? I voted. It's irrelevant. Voting means absolutely nothing, it's like a message in a bottle. If you look at our voting and election system, cheating on a massive scale is being practiced. It's highly questionable my vote is counted accurately or at all. Even if I did vote, Congress and all our legislatures are too structurally flawed to properly represent anyone's point of view but the very wealthy. How about the Electoral College and the Presidential primaries? I live in a city, and rural states like Iowa and Kansas can influence the election more than the rest of the population. And it didn't just get to be like this yesterday. It has been like this and getting worse in my lifetime.

I think you make a fundamental error in seeing our country as having gone off track, where the solution would be to go back to the principles we used to stand for. What's happening is our country is it's reaching the end of the track. Actually, US was founded to make men wealthy, and no contingency plan for what would happen if it didn't turn out, and no vision of what the final results would be.

And, no, I didn't have a say in the government the Founders set up with all its structural flaws and misjudgments. And now, I have as much influence over this government as a flea does riding a charging elephant.

My point of view? This country is going to crumble in my lifetime. The only say I will ever have on what happens with this hunk of geography is after that happens, and likely, I'll have none even then.

He who eats meat is brother to the butcher.

some of us knew and did some things, but not enough apparently, others didn't know and still don't and have likely done nothing about it.

If WE don't get this straight, WE WILL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN . . . .

"We," as in "our country." They're equivalent. Has education become so bad that we are getting the point of needing an interpreter to speak to each other in our native tongue? (And I take it that I don't have to explain what I said there.)

He could have substituted the latter, but the former is just as clear, for most of us. He doesn't accuse you of being in the chain of command. You need far more words than "we" to say that. If he had said "they" you might think he was talking about American POW's in Taliban prisons.

If you object to "we" you must also object to his use of "our soldiers." You can't object to one without the other. Really, with so many offensive things going on, you don't need to find nonsense to get pissed about, and with people who are friendly.

You're part of a "we" just in the sense that you are inhabiting the USA, and presumably, a citizen. Just by virtue of that, you are a little better equipped to do something about the decision making than "they" are in Afghanistan, just by virtue of physical location if nothing else.

Even if they have just as much a right to be pissed about this policy, but for different reasons.

A "we", who has for so long distanced itself from the bad behaviour of others, that those others feel free to act entirely as they please.

Becasuse:

• "WE" would rather keep our friends than speak up and call them the arseholes they are when they make disparaging comments or jokes about: wimin, niggers, coons, slopes, slants, polacks, micks, spicks, kikes, wogs, wops, ragheads, and on, and on and on and depressingly on;
  
• "WE" repeat the same stupid hateful jokes ourselves to score kudos;
  
• "WE" go with the flow and help put the boots (figurative and literal) into the "poof" who dares to enter a "real men's bar";
  
• "WE" join in on the humiliation of the "strange kid" rather than risk having that humiliation turned upon us;

It is quite common for military personnel to hide injuries and mental/emotional problems for a variety of reasons.

1. Feelings of obligation to fulfill their duties.
2. As a corrollary to item 1, a desire to avoid placing an additional burden on their comrades. ("If I don't do this some other poor bastard is going to have to do it.&quot
3. Wanting to avoid any possibility of being seen as shirking or "slacking". (This can be driven internally by both 1 and 2, and externally by peer pressure or other factors.
4. Promotion/career opportunities.
5. Ignorance (or sometimes, self-denial) of the actual or possible severity of their problems.

Anybody familiar with the military can attest to this. I've probably been guilty of all five at various points of my career.

The killer of women and children or the medical mental midget who signed off saying he was fit for duty?


My bet is the shooter!

it gets the full-bore examination as part and parcel of the defense strategy.

If he was med boarded as a consequence of his TMI, that information will get the fine-toothed comb treatment as well.

This isn't just a small thing--this guy's conduct might well change DOD's course of action.

You can't expect to deploy a normal person into combat 4 times and have them come back ok.

It would take an extraordinary person to be nice and stable after all that.

... 4 tours is not remotely rare and many have done more than that.

Our military was over-stretched and now they are beating the war drums AGAIN.

And they claim to support our troops. "Support" is not how I would describe sending them into impossible no-win situations over and over and over and over.

...the person who comes home "nice and stable" after that is probably not someone you want to be around.

"Normal" people have breaking points.

Not a bad person, just a self-centered narcissis: a mix of 65% Robert Duvall's character in Apocalypse Now and 35% of George C. Scott's character in The Great Santini. Loved Vietnam so much he spent pretty much my entire childhood there: two long tours and three short tours.

Though he now says he suffered from some PTSD, the truth is he came out OK. He just wasn't the sort who was particularly bothered by what he did, the danger to himself or even his own injuries. Anyone he killed was by definition the enemy and that was that: the only thing that seems to bother him was watching his friends die, particularly the ones suffered in gruesome ways.

Still, while he wasn't a good father, he's not a bad sort. Probably the worst thing he does is to cheat on his wives. Most folks, I think, regard him as sort of charming. I really don't think he's a sociopath, though: he's just not that deep.

3 tours of duty in iraq before this. he's not a robot. he's a human being. humans can only take so much, even highly-trained ones.

I pointed this out in the thread calling for the death penalty.

I am not surprised that something was wrong in his head. I think that's common for murderers.


--imm

FRAKKING TROLLS!!!

Like some guy just goes out and does this kind of horror, because he wants to, or he enjoys it????!!! fucking BULLSHIT!

It was one of those "I'm usually against the death penalty, but..." type of threads.

I don't think it was a troll. Just someone who should have thought it through more.

I hope.

I agree with you. It was a tortured person, not a happy camper, who carried this out.


--imm

Something more helpful to victims AND criminals.

People somehow turn anti-DP positions into something TTE "Oh, so murderers should be let off."

There are other alternatives if we want them.

The accused soldier had been diagnosed with a brain injury.

It was crazy to send him back into a war zone. He should have been retired and treated!

I am saying that killing people is an indicator of brain dysfunction.

--imm

Name the topic - it is clear that our country has lost its way.

Ten days later they sent him back to Iraq..

Thank god the young man survived and is now home and doing okay.

It's TERRIBLE what they've done to these soldiers...I think they've been horribly disabused

with all these tours of duty....In Vietnam, soldiers had to do ONE tour and that was it.

Of course we had the draft then -- They got rid of that, imo, so they could keep an unpopular

war going without the whole country having a nervous breakdown...I don't like the draft,

but I think these wars have been horribly unfair to our soldiers, many who were in the National

Guard and Reserves and never thought they'd leave the country.

There are many who have brain injuries and served multiple tours. Human beings aren't built for this. I hope they increase efforts to identify these soldiers at risk.

How long before we as a culture recognize this obvious truth?

brain injuries: sadly all too many will have a hard time coping with their circumstances, in peace or war.

This is what happens when it is more important to get as many boots on the ground as possible than to take the time to diligently assess someone with a brain injury and see how that injury may affect the person.

And yes, as an up-post indicates, we are going to be seeing more and more of this as troops return home. It is a very sad commentary on our nation the way our soldiers are treated.

.

kids were shot there, too

This is the 3rd despicable act in as many months. But it comes as no surprise, really. Vietnam fell apart in the end too. Maintaining command and control just gets more difficult with each passing year. Such is the case here as well. It shows the need to bring our troops home. It is time for healing.

killing zone also. It must be agonizing. We should no longer be a party to their misery. We simply have to get the hell out of there.

Afghanistan was astounding.

It's a horror for all around and needs to end now.

This soldier never should have been sent back. That is the main screwup here.

From the Wikipedia entry:

>>>>

TBI may cause emotional, social, or behavioral problems and changes in personality.[115][116][117][118] These may include emotional instability, depression, anxiety, hypomania, mania, apathy, irritability, problems with social judgment, and impaired conversational skills.[115][118][119] TBI appears to predispose survivors to psychiatric disorders including obsessive compulsive disorder, substance abuse, dysthymia, clinical depression, bipolar disorder, and anxiety disorders.[120] In patients who have depression after TBI, suicidal ideation is not uncommon; the suicide rate among these persons is increased 2- to 3-fold.[121] Social and behavioral symptoms that can follow TBI include disinhibition, inability to control anger, impulsiveness, lack of initiative, inappropriate sexual activity, poor social judgment, and changes in personality.[115][117][118][122]

>>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_brain_injury

I just can't hear the soldier's issues in light of that. Not now at least.

From a CNN report posted by my buddy (an MD) who believes there may be a cover-up. He italicized a sentence in report:


http://edition.cnn.com/20...tings-village/?hpt=hp_c1

In the back of the trucks, a dead toddler with a bloodstained face lies between two dead men. In another truck, a blanket is pulled back to reveal the charred legs and feet of two more bodies. All of them are villagers killed in an attack while they slept in their homes before dawn Sunday.

They are some of the 16 victims of what Afghan officials have said was a rampage by a U.S. soldier from a base in western Kandahar.

Confusion, outrage follow massacre

"One guy came in and pulled a boy from his sleep and he shot him in this doorway. Then they came back inside the room and put a gun in the mouth of one child and stomped on another child," a mother said as she sat in her home.

Another mother was filled with rage and sorrow as she sat in one of the vehicles transporting the dead.

"Four girls and four boys. They are 2-year-olds. Are these Talibs?" she barked.

the other post here yesterday ? I lost track of that which gave actual timings of events. If so do you have the link ?

guilty for sending him over there again even though they knew he was having problems.