1. Fox News? Really?

2. I live here in Kiev and I can ensure you that the police station down the street are run by the same people that ran it a month ago, all the government ministries are run by the same people, and the exact same people that were in government a month ago are all still there.

At no time in the last few months have the controlled more than a couple of blocks. And now they control a city of millions?

Can you say pretentious?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/21/is-ukraine-drifting-toward-civil-war/

Any thoughts? Looking from another side...

and tend to agree with it.

The EU agreement rejected in November would require Ukraine to submit to the will of NATO.

NATO secretary general - Anders Fogh Rasmussen - declared that the abortive pact with Ukraine would have been "a major boost to Euro-Atlantic security".

NATO and the west have consistently and continually violated an agreement made after the dissolution of the USSR that NATO would not expand into any country that was formerly a Warsaw Pact country. Russia cannot trust anything the EU and NATO says in this regard. Russia understands that NATO presence is not defensive, it is a policy to encircle and contain Russia and to allow the US to do whatever it please anywhere in the world.

The parliament of Crimea, which holds the status of an autonomous region in Ukraine, as compared to a regular administrative region, has already gone on record that they will secede rather than allow a policy of forced Ukrainianization, which is a stated goal of some of the parties in the recent protests. Should Ukraine or NATO forces intervene to stop secession, Russia WILL intervene much as the intervened in the Georgia conflict. Crimea is approximately 60% Russian, 20% Ukrainian, 20% other. Plus Russia already has a military presence in Crimea. I don't see them backing away from this no matter how many times the Ukrainian Parliament votes to terminate.

Nor of course should the IMF be trusted. While I'm sure they have on occasions had some moderate successes, their failures are massive and well documented.

If you haven't seen this thread I started a couple of days ago, there's more here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024526436

I somehow missed the earlier discussion, but thanks.

As someone with relatives in Ukraine I am also very aware that this is largely the result of Geopolitics combined with right wing hatred.
Sure, people want change and are tired of the corrupt government. But the forces that may gain power have a history of hatred for half the country. They are more akin to our "tea party". I am convinced most Ukrainians, West or East, did not want this the way it is happening, and are concerned for what will come.

Fox News is just the website hosting it.

There's not as much being mentioned about protesters being in control. Regardless, it's good to have perspective from someone who is actually there.

Don't those ministries and police answer to some hierarchy? If the top of the hierarchy is gone, who is in charge there in Kiev? Kiev's mayor defected. Who else is in charge?

Obviously the police must implement the law and whatnot, but they clearly haven't implemented the anti-protest law, as they stayed out of it.

Yes, there still is a hierarchy, a chain of command. While it will likely change quickly, a number of people at the top of these hierarchy were appointed by VY (Yanukovich). Some may have already switched their party loyalties. Of course, anybody at the top of some hierarchy who doesn't understand that things are different now will likely see him/herself replaced quickly.

And it seems things are changing quicker than anybody thought possible. Instead of trying to summarize, here's a link...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html

and he allowed the police to be pardoned if they had been involved in any "crimes". This video from earlier this week shows some of the riot police who were captured by the protesters, being marched to a police station and then handed over to authorities (by those protesters).

I believe that this video report of Matt Frei was from Thursday evening, here is his written report:

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-kiev-independence-square-maidan-witnesses

It's hard to say if this happened because he honestly believes in what they are about.

It is well understood that at this point things are in the hands of very right wing forces that are militant.

If true, it's not the outcome I expected. I figured the government would dig in and there would be more bloodshed.

that all the government had to do was not do something stupid and the protests would go away in a couple of weeks.

Yet every time the protests started to die down, usually Mr. Yanukovich (VY) himself would be the one to do something incredibly stupid to revive the protests. If it wasn't VY, then some one else in the government or an ally would gladly take on the task. And each time something stupid was done by the government, it was always more stupid that the previous act of stupidity. I've recently come to the conclusion that VY is a classic megalomanic.


Megalomania is a psychopathological disorder characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. "Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs." - from Wikipedia

Why escalate? I fear Maduro is doing that in Venezuela. He would heed to watch Ukraine. Shit goes away after awhile. Let it simmer.

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:38 AM - Edit history (1)

11:35:

Worth noting that Arsen Avakov, just elected as acting interior minister, is also a close ally of jailed opposition figure Yulia Tymoshenko.

The BBC's Daniel Sandford

tweets: So the next moves will be made in Kharkiv, Donetsk and Crimea. Big, big decisions for Eastern Ukraine and Russia. Enormous stakes

11:31:

Opposition Fatherland MP Arsen Avakov has been elected acting interior minister, official TV channel Rada has reported.



10:21:

Ukrainian Russian-language website Versii.com reports that President Yanukovych is planning to resign but is in Kharkiv with senior officials to discuss forming a separate government in the south-east and Crimea. Also considering asking Russia's President Putin to guarantee safety of those regions. He is with the head of his administration Andriy Kluev and ex-PM Mykola Azarov, Versii reports.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26302572

Crimea was already considering leaving their union.

not only of the media source, but just in general this seems highly unlikely.

See #7 and #10.

....


“We gave chances to politicians to become future ministers, presidents, but they don’t want to fulfill one condition — that the criminal go away!” he said, vowing to lead an armed attack if Mr. Yanukovych did not announce his resignation by 10 a.m. on Saturday. The crowd shouted: “Yes! Yes!”

Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, a coalition of hard-line nationalist groups, reacted defiantly to news of the settlement, drawing more cheers from the crowd.

“The agreements that were reached do not correspond to our aspirations,” he said. “Right Sector will not lay down arms. Right Sector will not lift the blockade of a single administrative building until our main demand is met — the resignation of Yanukovych.”

He added that he and his supporters were “ready to take responsibility for the further development of the revolution.” The crowd shouted: “Good! Good!”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

other than the lads going out for a bit of fun.

Staring to look if as if Yanukovych may be in the initial stages of setting up a government in the east. Maybe the country will split down the Dnieper which is a convenient geographicel division.

From Kyiv Post

Herman says Yanukovych in Kharkiv, has not fled Ukraine

Feb. 22, 11:22 a.m. -- Regions Party member of parliament Hanna Herman, another loyalist of President Viktor Yanukovych, says he has not fled Ukraine, but is rather in Kharkiv. She says, however, that Yanukovych will not take part in any separatist initiatives promoted by Kharkiv's mayor and governor. -- Katya Gorchinskaya

As for splitting the country at the Dnieper, that would divide Kiev in two. West Kiev and East Kiev. Has a very cold war feel to it, doesn't it?

So why the talk of splitting up Ukraine? Where is that coming from?

that I can be president of something."

I don't want to see Ukraine divided but, if powerful forces want it to happen, I hope the opposition will resist the idea even if they cannot stop it.

To do so would require mass relocations of ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians. The very maneuver to do that would cause so much havoc as people scramble to keep a piece of whatever pie would be chopped up.

The opposition should naturally resist it but it should be laid out under referendum. With every single person voting.

a country wide referendum would make about as sense as England and Wales voting in the Scottish referendum to separate.

What might happen is that Crimea will initially go it alone and then be joined by others.

https://twitter.com/RichardEngel

I'm sure the "very interested" already read his twitter.

KIEV, Ukraine — Opposition leader and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was ordered released from prison Saturday following a vote in Ukraine’s parliament, according to Associated Press reports.

In and extraordinary session, lawmakers also introduced an article of dismissal for President Viktor Yanukovych and chose Oleksandr Turchynov as the new speaker of the Ukrainian parliament.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraines-president-open-to-early-vote-polish-leader-says-scores-reported-killed-in-clashes/2014/02/21/05d3de46-9a82-11e3-b931-0204122c514b_story.html?hpid=z1

==========

This is getting interesting. I wonder how Moscow is going to react.

Translated from Pravda news source in Ukraine....

--------

MP faction "Rodina" Vyacheslav Kirilenko said that the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych resigned.
He told the TV channel "the Council".
"I think it is now officially announce to you all that Yanukovych resigned, and Yulia Tymoshenko at large," - he said.
Instead, an MP from the Party of Regions Herman denied the allegation, and the President's representative in the parliament Yuri Miroshnichenko - confirmed.

--------

http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/02/22/7015727/

-----
Adding:

Richard Engel ?@RichardEngel 26m
Yanukovych advisor Hanna Herman denies President Yanukovych has resigned – Interfax

Ukrainian President Insists He Won't Resign, Slams Opposition http://en.ria.ru/world/20140222/187788296/Ukrainian-President-Insists-He-Wont-Resign-Slams-Opposition.html

My Daughter who lives in Kiev had heard the President had flown to Dubai. As it looks Parliament ousted him out of power anyway.

dang....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024545597

UKRAINE PROTESTERS TAKE KIEV; PRESIDENT SAYS COUP

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/tymoshenko-spokeswoman-retracts-freedom-claim

"Everything that is happening today is, to a greater degree, vandalism and bandits and a coup d'etat," Yanukovych said in a televised statement, clearly shaken and making long pauses in his speech.

I personally know and am related to some of those killed in this coup --they had no choice. They protested, disagreed, tried to pass laws -- only to be ignored, ridiculed, and sometimes murdered. We had enough and had nothing else to lose. Tempers rose and when we were treated like discarded animals (sorry to all animal lovers -- I too am one), we just fought back.

Yanukovich was a puppet of Moscow just like the others before him (Yuschenko not so much but still was overwhelmed with the position) and I fear more puppets. Power and money corrupt and I fear those who come in will change like many of our leaders have before they entered the Washington bubble.

At least his family got out. Last reports I had was that they were spotted at Heathrow.

why are we not helping the protesters?

This is a state dept. issue. I imagine he's going to speak about the US position on all this shortly.