They never do.

Really they all are. And we are all guilty of human rights abuses by buying these products. The essential facts of the sweatshops are not in doubt. There have been many sucides; they are often forced to work 72 hours straight, etc. All so you can have your shiny new piece of crap toy.

If you want to pronounce yourself guilty go ahead. I and the 99% are not. It is a globalized economy and that genie is not going back in the bottle. The situation in China has been sensationalized. People in China fight for those jobs which pay much higher than the average Chinese wage. It has been documented that the suicide rate at the foxconn factory (700,000 employees) is less than the suicide rate of American cities of that size. Are you going to say Americans are committing suicide because of "sweatshop" conditions?

Here's the story at the NPR website:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/16/148761812/this-american-life-retracts-mike-daiseys-apple-factory-story

Here's This American Life
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2012/03/retracting-mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

I hope it's correct that the conditions are better than described. But there are problems and I don't want this used as an excuse to do nothing about them or to discount true accounts. Damn, damn, damn.

I'm guessing Apple/Foxconn set NP(R) straight.

China's factory and work conditions are still shite and slave-level and American corporations are profiting like fiends off of it. That's completely beyond dispute even if 1 or 2 details are fudged.

Let's not lose sight of this issue or immediately allow corporations to say "SEEEEEEE? Everything's hunky dory, tree-huggers!!!"

It is unfortunate that Daisey claimed experiences which were not his own. It allows another international megacorporation to get away with PR'ing away its abuses.

Typed from my brand new Mac Mini...hooked up to a Samsung monitor, and a 2tb Western Digital raid, with an optical disc drive whose brand name I can't recall...all of it undoubtedly manufactured by a six year old kid with a gun held to her head, at least according to the Windows/Linux crowd, whose computers are all made by fairies, unicorns and elves in a happy, sunshiny place where Care Bares run the factories and pay the employees in gold and chocolates.

Just as silly to righteously defend Pepsi over Coke, or demonize Coke over Pepsi as was done during the Cola Wars in the eighties. Both sides would snigger at the other, peering petulantly at the other over little tin cans full of soda pop.

I do often find myself giggling at both camps equally.


Enjoy your Pepsi.

Local soda maker here in CT. All locally produced using local water and local labor...and tastes ten times better than either Pepsi or Coke.

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"and tastes ten times better than either Pepsi or Coke..."

We all of us rationalize why the other guys suck... I s'pose the self-validation helps us feel better about our own choices. The cola wars are still funny...

Bad comparison IMO since the other camp is anyone who doesn't own an Apple product, where's the HP, ACER, Dell or any other PC manufactures camp of followers and defenders? It's more of a cult since one side believes anything that Apples PR team say's while everyone else tries to get them to see the flaws of his reasoning.

Apple to be the Cadillac Cimarron of computers. High priced transportation to the same location using all the same parts a Chevy.

Linux is truly the language of the proletariat.

The Cimarron was a total POS sold at a ridiculous markup at a time when Detroit auto-making was at the lowest point in its history. Also producing the Chevy Monza and Citation. What would be the "car" equivalent to Linux? Some kit you purchased from JC Whitney, just so you could say you felt good about assembling it yourself from the same use parts? They had those back in the Cimarron days, too. Plastic hot-rod hits built on Volkswagon Bug chassis.

Sorry, your analogy is an epic fail.

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Sounds spot on to me.

I wanted something similar to their workstation(quad MacPro). Guess what I found out... in order for me to build one, I had to pay almost as much for all the components, as I would have if I bought the Mac straight from an Apple store. Now there may be machines that are highly priced by Apple, but the components for the Mac I wanted to build were top-of-the-line and the machine was NOT overpriced.

What you said is exactly my point. For instance, HP is currently adverting their new "Ultrabook," which starts at $999. Starts at $999. The same price the MacBook air sold for when it was introduced well over a year ago. But now the MacBook Air has advanced, the HP is still catching up, but the people like DireStrike are hellbent on believing that somehow the Macs MUST cost too much! Dammit, they've spent years telling themselves this! But we've know all along that when you actually use the same level of components, the same quality parts, not cheap shit from the used computer store, then yes...no one can build a computer similar to what Apple offers for any less money. Certainly you can buy a CHEAPER computer. Fewer ports, expansion bays, low-end power supply, etc, etc...but, as with buy purchasing any item of true quality, that quality will cost you a bit more. Buy in the end, you'll have a quality product that lasts, not a POS hand-made machine you created with used parts from the computer thrift shop.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Some people like doing that. But some people don't.

For example NEW comparable components for the $2,500 quad core macpro listed on Apple's site come to around $800 without the case and OS. " But we've know all along that when you actually use the same level of components, the same quality parts, not cheap shit from the used computer store, then yes...no one can build a computer similar to what Apple offers for any less money" That's just blatantly false. Anytime anyone points out the working conditions Apple fans are the first to point out that they use the same manufacturer's for their parts and in most cases identical parts as the rest of the PC maker's. Nothing is special about the internals of a mac and if you feel like the OS and cool case is worth paying three times as much you would for a pc to each his own but don't spread old Apple pr points about the parts being superior than all others.

successful in killing Apple. They were working on a version of Linux (MkLinux) at the time. But the Steve was able to cut a deal with MS that saved Apple. On of their coders suggest I learn Linux for that reason, and that it would come in handy if they survived. It did help to fill in some software gaps in the early years of OSX. I was able to run Linux apps until there was an OSX version. About all I use from Linux now is GIMP and Inkscape. Both have OSX versions, but still need X11.

Thanks

The only issue you saw here is a smear on your favorite brand? I have news for you: corporations, even Apple, are only good the way cats are good: as long as you forget they eat rats and hate each other, they're perfect. Nobody, not TAL, Ira Glass, or anyone said that working conditions in Asian electronics factories were much better for anyone. So, be just a little less brand-paranoid. On the other hand, Apple is the industry leader and it sets the standards for the rest of the industry.

To be safe from Apple's extremely aggressive legal team (and even Apple lovers have admitted that), "This American Life" retracted its whole program. However, they already said that they did do a lot of fact checking, and the ones they were able to verify did check out.

"This American Life," that is. It looks like Mike Daisy's whole story is false from beginning to end. So, I retract what I said. Daisy is a pathological liar.

The guy's was caught with his pants down and has admitted making shit up ... because it's "theater," you know, not journalism.

I take it you're all for fabricating stuff as long as it fits your agenda and world view?

It was taken seriously to the extend that it described some very real conditions at meatpacking plants and led to a lot of changes that helped the American work. Yet is was fiction.

This American Life presented the Daisey segment as representing a real trip he made and the real things that happened there: which of course, as it turned out, didn't. He didn't meet underage workers, he never saw a guy with a mangled hand, never met anyone with hexane poisoning. But he said (both in the piece and to the producers of the show) that he did. He misrepresented himself, even in the face of the fact-checking they (weakly) tried to do.

Did you listen to TAL last night? This guy is such an amazing pathological liar it was unbelievable. I mean, everything from telling them that his translator had a different name and no longer had a phone to his contention that certain things happened (like he met a single 13-year-old, but the translator wasn't around at that point.) But I have to fault TAL, who did a very weak defense of themselves as well.

I have no objection to reporting on conditions in Chinese factories. The NYT reporter who was on in the last segment did a good job (without being hyperbolic--it was a balanced report that put things in perspective). What I do object to is this being an Apple story alone, not a story about tech factories in China in general. Because as you know, every cell phone and computer company--all electronics companies of every ilk--are housed at Foxconn. Leaving out this crucial detail (no, I don't accept the idea that it's okay because Apple is biggest) is dangerous, because it creates a single villain, thus seeming to exonerate all the Nokias, Sonys, HPs, etc. etc. in the world. If this kind of story succeeds in suppressing Apple, these other companies will go right on picking up the slack in colluding to exploit Chinese workers.

The computer or smartphone you used to type your post was made in China, in whole or in part, and participated in the same collusion with poor work practices that any Apple product would.

If there's one thing I hate it's lying to play on people's emotions. I hate hyperbole, and I hate con games. I hate it when Republicans do it; and it's just as bad when "our" side does it with the weak defense that it's for a "good cause." Lies are lies, and they're wrong.

to get the information for his book, right?

You might remember that one fake document was injected into that story, and people took it as an excuse to forget the whole story, or all the other details.

What if it were like this:

- Apple fanboy wants to protect Apple.
- Apple fanboy knows that it is inevitable that Foxconn abuses will be exposed.
- Apple fanboy injects fake details into a real story.
- The fake details get discredited.
- In the process, people wonder how many other details are discredited and forget the whole story.
- Mission accomplished for Apple fanboys.

Nice try, though.

First of all, I don't know of any actual "fanboys" who are self-described as such. It's usually the hater that ascribes this term to someone who defends Apple, and therefore must be an acolyte. Then you compared this situation to Bush's TANG bullshit. Perhaps I just misunderstood what you were getting at. Maybe if you typed "Apple fanboy" in bigger, bolder letters, two or three more times, your point would be clearer.

who describes himself as that.

Maybe it was a hint at the fraud to follow?

So far, a good fiction. It may be possible to do an investigative report on the guy's investigative report.

The problem is, once the fake details are discredited, "fanboy's" name is mud for the rest of his life. Nobody does that unless they're actually in pay of Apple or Foxconn.

In the absence of any other details, the more likely reason is fame.

It's just my cReAtIvE sPeCuLaTiOn! But if I wanted to take it further I'd say that his reputation as a journalist is shot, but he's not a journalist anyways! He's a comedian!

People think most of them are paid douche bags anyway. It hurts his fame to all-but demonstrate it.

I hope the rest of professional journalists and those who claim to be take note of this kind of response.

First publicly acknowledging the mistake and holding themselves accountable:

And addressing it not just in a small blurb or mention that could easily get missed but doing something like this:

"On this week's episode of This American Life, we will devote the entire hour to detailing the errors in "Mr. Daisey Goes to the Apple Factory."

that still persist at Foxconn.

What a jerk.

a reminder to Americans that people busted their asses for the things we buy and get paid little to nothing so that the uppercrust can max out on profits.

They will use this as an excuse to ignore the facts because parts of a story happened not to be true.

Best 25. a year I spend. I'm glad the facts are out and wondered about a few of those same points during the show too, but it is still a fantastic show.

I'm at work and so far have only been able to catch the intro to this week's program, but it seems to suggest that elements of Daisey's story were fabricated or embellished, but the underlying story of terrible working conditions isn't necessarily false.

Ira Glass indicates that this aspect of the report has been corroborated by independent journalists and by Apple itself, to some extent.


I'll download the program later. Looking forward to a commendable demonstration of journalistic integrity.

if you believe that the story "really is true" you can dismiss these admissions and continue to believe it.

Or can we still discuss those elements of it that have been independently corroborated?

Is the subject itself off-limits because Daisey pissed in the pool? If so, then Apple should hire him as the best thing that ever happened to their PR department!

but as a poster above mentioned, those who believe it is true, think this is just part of Apple's coverup. Those who think it's untrue will make the, "if they lied about this, what else are they lying about?".

In the end, regardless of any evidence presented, most people have already picked their side and will bend the facts to fit their opinions.

I was relieved to see This American Life act so quickly to issue the retraction, though you're correct that it will do little to persuade those who have already drawn their conclusions.

Issues brought up can be discussed but evidence/proof/verification must come from other sources. It nearly decapitates the n-hexan story.

Daisey grew himself a poisonous tree- and then flung us all the fruit. What a mess.

His version of the tale is irredeemable, but such facts as can be independently corroborated are still fair game.

If I were of a more conspiratorial mind, I might suspect that Apple had hired him in the first place.

Not that This American Life is exactly a news program. It is something else.

But Apple got pissed off and they caved.

If elements of the story are false, then it's the responsibility of This American Life to retract those elements, which they've done.

Far from "caving," I would call this a rare example of strong journalistic ethics!

There were doubts about certain aspects of the stories from the start.

And it does not discount the whole problem of poor working conditions for labor that makes all electronics.

Ira Glass really grills Mike Daisy, who comes off as a pathological liar by the end. He, more or less, is made to admit that it's almost all false, and the little that he won't admit is untrue can't be verified.

I'm willing to say that the only thing factual was that Daisy visited Foxconn and had a interpreter named Cathy Lee. That's it.

conditions at Foxxconn back -- way back. It truly disgusts me.

The damage will be widespread.

However, in Glass's defense, "This American Life" was not originally an investigative journalism show. It was originally a story-telling show where the journalistic stakes were much lower because the stories were personal. It has only recently moved into it after a few initial successes from personal stories that crossed-over into larger topics.

If you listen to Ira Glass: the guy is not an investigative journalist. That's not how he started out. That's not what the show's original purpose. He is extraordinary in his niche, but he wasn't well-prepared for serious investigative journalism, and he made a j-student's error on an earth-shaking story.

The show aimed to high, and the Peter Principle caught up to Glass. I've enjoyed his shows so much in the past, that I have to cut him some slack. Daisy, on the other hand, is a pathological liar without shame, and he was able to seem sincere all the way through his monologues and through the previous show. Whatever one's political, religious or social belief, there are liars or psychotics in all those segments. Liberal, conservative, Christian, Atheists.

Even with this error, that's Fox 133,543 errors (citation needed), Ira Glass 1. And he had the class to do a whole show retracting it. When has another, purportedly professional journalistic outlet ever done that? I'm not aware of it. To me, it looks groundbreaking.

To the extent that I signed up for audible.com in order to get the TAL podcasts prior to them being free. I've downloaded and shared TAL podcasts with friends and co-workers -- especially the show entitled "Heretic."

I've heard Glass call people to task when he felt that they were being untruthful. I've been constantly impressed with his insight. I, in particular, am not as good at reading people, and I'm positive that Glass is more knowledgeable, worldly, and just plain smarter than I am -- as many people are.

So when I listened to the Mike Daisey show, where he used a performance artist to call attention to Apple's ("the wealthiest corporation on Earth" according to a Feb. 2012 NPR story) labor practices, even I had a sinking feeling that this wasn't going to end well.

Love Ira Glass. Love that he's introduced me to David Sedaris, Sarah Vowell, David Rakoff, and so many others. Glass dropped the ball on his fact checking, and the consequences, I fear, are going to have negative repercussions for millions of incredibly impoverished people. That's difficult for me to stomach.

add some false details more extreme than reality, so that when they are exposed as false, the reality doesn't look as bad, or is no longer looked at at all.