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alp227

(32,025 posts)
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 12:57 AM Mar 2012

Einstein Proved Right in Retest of Neutrinos’ Speed

Source: AP

Einstein may have been right after all.

European researchers said Friday they had measured again the speed of a subatomic particle that a September experiment suggested traveled faster than the speed of light, violating Einstein’s special theory of relativity, which underlies much of modern physics.

The research team, led by the Nobel Prize-winning physicist Carlo Rubbia, found that the particles, neutrinos, do not travel faster than light.

Mr. Rubbia’s team, called Icarus, measured the speed of neutrinos fired from CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, in Switzerland, to a detector 453 miles away in Italy.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/science/einstein-proved-right-in-retest-of-neutrinos-speed.html

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Einstein Proved Right in Retest of Neutrinos’ Speed (Original Post) alp227 Mar 2012 OP
Still gonna get 67,000,000 points on their drivers licenses. tclambert Mar 2012 #1
DUzy of a post longship Mar 2012 #2
Sooner or later he was bound to get a lucky guess right. bluedigger Mar 2012 #3
More accurately "Einstein Not Proved Wrong in Retest of Neutrinos' Speed" FarCenter Mar 2012 #4
I was just going to post the same thing. n/t Gore1FL Mar 2012 #8
Hardware problem slackmaster Mar 2012 #5
It really christx30 Mar 2012 #6
He had some deficiencies in math. girl gone mad Mar 2012 #13
Einstein = Most over-hyped scientist in history. harun Mar 2012 #7
Are you saying that to elevate others or to bash Einstein? n/t Gore1FL Mar 2012 #9
I think Issac Newton makes the top of that list Exultant Democracy Mar 2012 #20
Nah; "particles" can't travel faster than light. But impulses can. Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #10
But what if your 3 foot pencil were... Ferretherder Mar 2012 #11
Yes it would Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #18
No it wouldn't. harun Mar 2012 #24
Nope. Wrong. The impulse is traveling at the speed of the pencil, no faster. saras Mar 2012 #12
Think again Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #17
Assume (hypothetically) a perfectly rigid pole; as soon as you push one end, the other moves Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #27
Locking itsrobert Mar 2012 #14
"...neutrinos, do not travel faster than light." unkachuck Mar 2012 #15
If entangled particles are mad at you for going out with the guys and getting drunk, tclambert Mar 2012 #16
Entangled particles might communicate by FTL impulses similar to those noted by Woodbridge Goodman Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #19
Think again FiveGoodMen Mar 2012 #21
Can you give an example of an entirely solid object? Or does it only exist in theory? In such a vanbean Mar 2012 #25
How to communicate 100,000 times faster than light; Dr. W. Goodman PhD Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #26
Now, I'm not a fancy pants theoretical physicist (crowd gasps) gratuitous Mar 2012 #22
Easy Silent3 Mar 2012 #28
Though? Light, photons, might be considered "particles," and/or objects. Travelling at speed Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #29
I'm not sure what point you're making Silent3 Mar 2012 #30
No substantive objection to your protocol; thanks for your excellent clarification Brettongarcia Mar 2012 #31
CERN davidhaslanded Mar 2012 #23

tclambert

(11,086 posts)
1. Still gonna get 67,000,000 points on their drivers licenses.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 06:35 AM
Mar 2012

And the fine will be . . . astronomical.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
3. Sooner or later he was bound to get a lucky guess right.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:22 AM
Mar 2012

Even Einstein is subject to the Laws of Probability.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
4. More accurately "Einstein Not Proved Wrong in Retest of Neutrinos' Speed"
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:30 AM
Mar 2012

The results no longer conflict with the theory of relativity.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
6. It really
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
Mar 2012

grates on me whenever I hear someone produce the old canard that Einstein wasn't good in math as a kid. He actually excelled. The whole bad-at-math thing was put forth in an article in "Ripley's believe it or not", which should be called, "Ripley's Believe it or not, I don't care, cause I get paid either way."

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
13. He had some deficiencies in math.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:05 PM
Mar 2012

He got a lot of help from Grossman and later Levi-Civita, who had contacted Einstein to point out the many errors in his work.

Today's Physics students have much more rigorous math requirements than Einstein did. I learned tensor calculus as an undergrad. That was still cutting edge math in 1900. Einstein was capable, but I do think he had to work very hard to understand certain mathematical concepts, and he admitted as much in his letters.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
20. I think Issac Newton makes the top of that list
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 03:22 PM
Mar 2012

If it hadn't been for Halley's intervention we probably wouldn't even know who he was today. Of course it would be a bit of a stretch to really consider Newton a scientist as we know them, but that is how he is perceived.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
10. Nah; "particles" can't travel faster than light. But impulses can.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 03:48 PM
Mar 2012

Here's what Dr. W. Goodman said in his theology of nature: suppose you have a three foot pencil; you start writing your name with it, three feet away. How fast is the impulse travelling, from your hand, to the paper?

Theoretically, it could be infinitely fast, or simultaneous; the instant you move your hand, the pencil begins to write. Even with intermolecular "slack," it's still faster than light.

Einstein had an IQ of 135. Let's move on.

Ferretherder

(1,446 posts)
11. But what if your 3 foot pencil were...
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 04:55 PM
Mar 2012

...186,000 miles long - would your impulse travel that distance in less than a second, without breaking any laws of physics?

...jus' wundren...

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
12. Nope. Wrong. The impulse is traveling at the speed of the pencil, no faster.
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 05:02 PM
Mar 2012

There isn't a magical "thing" that jumps from one end of the pencil to the other. Your muscles move, at slower-than-light speed. They move the pencil, at slower-than-light speed. The marks appear on the paper, at slower-than-light speed. Where's the "impulse"?


If you move one end of a long stick, the other end does NOT move instantaneously. If the stick is a light-year long, it will take AT LEAST a year from when you push one end until when the other end moves.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
27. Assume (hypothetically) a perfectly rigid pole; as soon as you push one end, the other moves
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:11 PM
Mar 2012

The instant you touch it, in an ideal situation.

Do you think that you would push one end of a two by four, and then a little while later, the other end would move? But that would require the 2 x 4 to .... contract. While we were waiting for the other end to finally move. This might happen to a minor degree. But the more rigid the pole, the less it happens; the more instantaneous the transmission of movement.

itsrobert

(14,157 posts)
14. Locking
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:15 PM
Mar 2012

Because the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one the 12 hour rule was violated. On the other hand, maybe the 12 hour rule is never violated because past, present, and future is an illusion.

I'm confused.

Sorry, I need to rethink this.

Not locking.

 

unkachuck

(6,295 posts)
15. "...neutrinos, do not travel faster than light."
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 09:41 PM
Mar 2012

....through space?....how about through other dimensions?

....how do entangled particles communicate?

tclambert

(11,086 posts)
16. If entangled particles are mad at you for going out with the guys and getting drunk,
Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:05 PM
Mar 2012

they may not communicate with you at all. Which is actually the better possibility.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
19. Entangled particles might communicate by FTL impulses similar to those noted by Woodbridge Goodman
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:33 AM
Mar 2012

I say this in sober seriousness!

Einstein could be partially right: objects, particles might not be able to move faster than light - FTL. But? When a theoreticaly, entirely solid object moves, the movement, is transmitted through the entire length of the object, simultaneously; infinitely fast, theoretically.

vanbean

(990 posts)
25. Can you give an example of an entirely solid object? Or does it only exist in theory? In such a
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 11:41 AM
Mar 2012

theory, anything is theoritically possible; Superman is faster than a speeding bullet. Thinking again is always a good idea.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
26. How to communicate 100,000 times faster than light; Dr. W. Goodman PhD
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:18 PM
Mar 2012

Entirely, absolutely solid objects, are a hypothetical construct. That may or may not be possible in everyday life. But? To the degree that objects approach that theoretical ideal, they will transmit motion, from one end to the other, at speeds approaching infinite; instantaneously. In an average object, motion might be communicated at a speed of say, 1,000 to one million times the speed of light.

So you are disappointed? That, as far as practicality is concerned, we can communicate at say, "only" one hundred thousand times the speed of light? FTL x 100,000?

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
22. Now, I'm not a fancy pants theoretical physicist (crowd gasps)
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
Mar 2012

But I wondered how anyone could measure the movement of a particle moving faster than the speed of light. It seems that we wouldn't be able to detect it before it was "gone," if it ever was "there" in the first place.

But then, I dropped freshman physics, so I'm hardly an authority. I just don't understand how a faster-than-light particle could be detected in our slower-than-light universe.

Silent3

(15,212 posts)
28. Easy
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:32 PM
Mar 2012

The speed of light is roughly 300,000 km/sec. So, imagine two detectors for some type of particle separated by 30 km. You record the time when a short pulse of those particles is detected by the first detector, then the time when that pulse is detected by the second detector.

If the difference in times is greater than 1/10000 of a second, the particles were going slower than light.

If the difference in times is equal to 1/10000 of a second, the particles were going at (or damn near) the speed than light.

If the difference in times is less than 1/10000 of a second... either the particles were going faster than light, or, more likely, you screwed up somewhere.

None of this simple procedure requires any physical object or signal going at or faster than the speed of light as part of the measurement apparatus even though it would be capable of detecting faster-than-light phenomena.

In a real-life experiment the devil is in the details if what you're trying to do is catch a very small difference is speed, like something going just slightly over the speed of light. A seemingly small difference is much more likely to be a calibration problem or procedural error that it is to be the discovery of ground-breaking new physics.

Silent3

(15,212 posts)
30. I'm not sure what point you're making
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 07:19 AM
Mar 2012

The protocol of measuring the speed of something by measuring how much time it takes that thing to pass between two checkpoints is pretty straightforward. What objection/qualification/caveat/agreement are you trying to make?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
31. No substantive objection to your protocol; thanks for your excellent clarification
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 03:57 PM
Mar 2012

Regarding verification procedure.

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