It's definitely a long time on the ground with all the current shenanigans.

Talking. That will scare Pootie-poot.

Well as Churchhill said- to jaw jaw is better than to war war.

Russia moving into Ukraine from the east, whatever pretext might be concocted or pretended to justify it, would breach a very valuable consensus in Europe that the map is frozen, and no one is to peach on another's sovereign territory.

There is nothing so powerful as a general consensus something just is not done, and there is nothing which will fall to pieces faster if someone actually does it....

i recommend it.

I don't know just how froggy/stupid Putin feels about it, but I am hopeful that good sense can still prevail.

It might be worth putting up in G.D., as it deserves wide reading, though the discussion doubtless would deteriorate quickly.

I agree with the analysis, and would point out that one of the most frequent mistakes made is to predict, and honestly believe, that a contemplated war will, once begun, be of short duration. I suspect the Russians could quickly break conventional resistance by Ukraine's military ( I read somewhere recently a rather sad account of attempts to make fighter jets there serviceable again ), but do not doubt this would merely be the entracte to a campaign of partisan resistance, which would enjoy cross border assistance from Polish and probably Romanian territory.

OK, I'll put it up.

Good call, Sir.

For some, the only fixed star in the world is that whoever the United States may oppose at any particular time is right, and ought to be believed. Cold War reflexes, which people dismayed by Russia's actions are often accused of displaying, work both ways, and may drive comment from both sides of this.

Personally, I try and find a left side, and when I do I support it, as in Venezuela. In this situation there is no left side, and people trying to pretend there is one, and that it aligns with Putin's ambitions, present a sorry spectacle of willed obtuseness and blackwhite.

The nearest thing to a side I have in this, apart from the concept of accuracy in description and analysis, is an attachment to the status quo in which Europe passes for a peaceable, even a pacific place. That is a mere soap-bubble, viewed down the length of history, and I do not want to see it disturbed or burst, and call down maledictions on the head of him who bobbles it. And if it is burst, the name of the man who did it will be immortalized as Vladimir Putin: it will not be President Obama, or Ms. Nueland, or the IMF, or neo-cons, or any of the raggle-tag some urge the blame on. It will be the man who sent troops over the border into a neighboring country to carve himself a chunk of it....

Regardless of their putative political views.

And the only good guys I see are the people standing there in the cold in Maidan.

What a lovely touch you have.

So Long As A Policeman Burns In Such A Situation, Sir, I Am Indifferent To How It is Achieved
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=772322

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This poster writes that "so longs a policeman burns in such a situation, I am indifferent to how it is achieved". This is not something that a normal rational person writes and it reflects violent behavior that is unbecoming to the spirit of DU. We all disagree on certain subjects but to wish for another human being to be burned just because they are a riot police officer is way over the top.

When riot police use murderous violence against a protesting crowd, the objects of their violence have, and always will have, in my view, a perfect right to defend themselves against police engaged in violent political repression with whatever means come to hand, and if among those means are incendiary devices I have no objection whatever.

If someone expects me to recoil in horror from defending the right of people to resist police engaged in violent suppression of political dissent by brandishing some bad thing which happened to a police officer so engaged, they are going to be disappointed, and will be put to the need to affect shock and dismay to the best of their ability.

You yourself, Sir, are on record in a poll nearby as considering Putin's invasion and annexation of Crimea was right, and this pretty well establishes your purpose in this discussion, and the bankruptcy of your claim to merely be presenting other views. You are a decided partisan, agitating for a cause, and the cause you are agitating for is imperial adventurism by Russia, employing means which were shabby and thread-bare in the thirties and forties, and the employment of which today profoundly threatens the peace of Europe in the future.

In short, Sir --- pound sand.

their former territory based upon the fact that Far Right extremists had taken over the country where their fleet was based.....the other believes it's ok to burn people alive for a cause. I'll stick with my philosophy over yours any day. I love the way you attempt to sound so eloquent and composed with your writing....while you advocate for the burning of human beings.

I believe people under murderous assault by police repressing dissent have the right to defend themselves with deadly violence.

You have no philosophy, you have a strained indeology which sums up as 'U.S. bad, anyone else good', and a very low grade agit-prop man's kit of catch-phrases and deliberate distortions.

Hundreds of German renowned intellectuals have just written a letter supporting Russia's action's and speaking out against the Russiaphobia in the Western media.

http://www.nrhz.de/flyer/beitrag.php?id=20163

Translated excerpt:

The expansion of NATO into former Soviet republics , the establishment of military bases in former Warsaw Pact states and the establishment of a missile defense shield in Eastern Europe with a simultaneous termination of the ABM Treaty by the United States are not only blatant word breaks. These measures can be understood by us only as a power projection of Western power , which are directed against the run of you state and economic consolidation of your country after you took office in 2000. Keir A. Lieber and Daryl G. Press in 2006 in addition set out in "Foreign Affairs" with her ​​article " The Rise of U.S. Nuclear Primacy " convincingly that the missile defense shield should allow a nuclear first strike nuclear neutralization of Russia.
This history in concise form reflects the background against which we judge the events in Ukraine since November 2013. It is now well documented that the U.S. has exploited the legitimate protests of the Ukrainian people for their own purposes. The pattern is known in other countries : Serbia, Georgia , Ukraine in 2004 , Egypt, Syria , Libya, Venezuela ..

I have never considered 'eastward ho!' a sound policy for NATO, but I do have considerable sympathy for peoples who, after decades or centuries of Russian and Soviet rule, have no desire to be once again under political or economic dominion exercised from Moscow. This is the underlying ground of all this, and without it, expansion of neither NATO nor the EU eastwards would have been possible. That, owing to programs of colonization and Russification, there exist at present Russian minorities in some of the states formerly part of the Russian empire, certainly does not alter this. Nor does that provide any legitimate cause for attempts to restore the old Russian imperium, or any portion of it, and certainly not for attempts to do so by military force projected across internationally recognized borders by invasion and conquest and occupation. That it is that last which you are energetically defending is obvious to all who read your comments. You might be owed a bit of respect if you stated what you support honestly, if you came right out and said you agree Russia's old empire should be restored, agree that Russia should have undisputed economic and political sway where-ever the old Czars ruled, and predominant economic and political influence throughout the territories of the old Warsaw Pact, rather than trying to hide behind piffle like squawks of 'the Nazis are coming!' and 'America's really to blame for all this!' and the rest of the nonesense you keep trying to persuade people to take seriously: I strongly doubt even you take any of it seriously, to be blunt.

It is very true that for the most part most of Eastern Europe has chosen to join the EU. While a few countries have chosen to go back in the fold of "mother father Russia", certainly it hasn't been that many. I guess we can just blame the right wing neo-nazi war-mongers for that.

Will Victoria Nuland cater the meeting?

Senior figures from Russia, Ukraine, the EU and the US are set to meet for talks on the situation in Ukraine next week, it has been announced, in what will be the first meeting of the four since the crisis erupted.

The EU foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, will join the US secretary of state, John Kerry, his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov and Ukraine's foreign minister, Andriy Deshchytsia.

News of the meeting emerged as a tense standoff between pro-Russian sectarianists and Ukraine security forces continued in the country's east.

Ukraine's security service has said that 56 people held inside a local headquarters in the eastern city of Luhansk occupied by pro-Russian separatists have been allowed to leave the premises.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/09/ukraine-crisis-pro-russia-separatists-release-people

Narrative changed to :

The Ukrainian authorities have said they will end the occupation of administrative buildings by pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country, either by negotiations or force, within 48 hours, as four-way talks between Russia, Ukraine, the US and EU were announced for next week in an attempt to defuse the tense situation.

"A resolution to this crisis will be found within the next 48 hours," said the interior minister, Arsen Avakov, in Kiev, referring to the eastern cities of Luhansk and Donetsk where protesters remained in control of government buildings.

"For those who want dialogue, we propose talks and a political solution. For the minority who want conflict they will get a forceful answer from the Ukrainian authorities," he said.

In Luhansk, the protesters did not appear in the mood to compromise, and on Wednesday were reinforcing the barricades around the security services building they have seized, and preparing petrol bombs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/09/ukraine-crisis-pro-russia-separatists-release-people