Now that's an image Maiden never had remotely voiced...

... in order to maintain visibilty. Seizing government facilities and arms is not a protest.

Kramatorsk, Savyansk, Donetsk are mentioned in the story

See the orange province in the far eastern end of Ukraine -- as far east as one can go except for the pale yellow one.

Donestsk is in big bold letters with a red dot in the middle of the orange province.

As for Kramatorsk, its at around the northern end of the orange province.

I can't find Savyansk, but there is a Slov'yansk just a bit north of Kramatorsk. I'm guessing that's Savyansk. Guess guess.

For a bigger view of the map: http://www.ezilon.com/maps/europe/ukraine-maps.html

Posted for locations only : not language references.

Outnumbered, incapable technologically, not to mention the Russian separatists come from within ( they live right there in Ukraine.)

Without international help, I dont see Ukraine able to withhold it's independence. That being said, an international conflict could mean a third world war.
Bad, bad idea.

Catch 22.

No matter how you flip it, it doeant look good.

its farcical sending armoured vehicles into an area if they're going to be captured by others.

It's hard to stop them.

At least she was until we decided to overthrow her democratically elected government and substitute some pencil-necked "technocrat" for President Yanukovich.

In which case those folks won't believe anything except what their media tells them.

This is all simple "cause and effect". Completely predictable.

See 11.23am BST

It looks like the Ukranian attempt to reassert control in Slavyansk has gone awry, with some troops going over to the pro-Russian side. This from Reuters.

At least three armoured personal carriers that were driven in to the eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk had been under the control of Ukrainian armed forces earlier on Wednesday, Reuters photographers said.

A soldier manning one of the troop carriers now under the control of pro-Russian separatists identified himself to Reuters as being a member of Ukraine's 25th paratrooper division from Dnipropetrovsk.

He said: "All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/ukraine-on-the-brink-live-blog-16-april



RIA Novosti is also reporting they were handed over.

Personnel From 6 Armored Transport Vehicles Sent To Kramatorsk In East Ukraine Switch To Side Of Pro-Federalist Activists.

SLAVIANSK, April 16 (RIA Novosti) - The personnel of six armored transport vehicles sent to the eastern Ukrainian city of Kramatorsk have switched sides and have joined the pro-federalist activists, witnesses told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

"We found them at a square near the railway station. A group of women surrounded them, we started telling them we were peaceful residents who are just fighting for their rights and that there are no terrorists here," the witness said, adding: "They won't shoot us."

"The main armored transport vehicle had a Russian flag on it and they left together with our [protesters] towards Slaviansk," the witness said.

The number of personnel from the transport vehicles was not specified.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140416/189240520/Personnel-From-6-Armored-Transport-Vehicles-Sent-To-Kramatorsk.html

Apparently there are a lot of Ukrainians who are not willing to shoot at each other.

I just posted this in another thread so this is a repost:

Youtube and news sites which emphasize reporting over propaganda are crawling with videos of Ukranian troops refusing to fire on their compatriots and switching sides.

This one is from a few days ago when local people of South-East caught and disarmed the tank near the city of Donetsk. The tank crew doesn't even seem to have and idea how to properly operate the vehicle. In this video, according to the freaks of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev, what you see are terrorists.

According to the audiovisuals, what you see is simple civilians willing to stand up in front of a tank with their car and their bodies to stop it.

Quick translation: "Who do you plan to shoot at? Stop the engine! Stop the engine! What are you pulling your assault rifle out for? Do you think that if we jump on your tank it will protect you? No, tell us, who are you going to shoot at? Switch off the engine, hush it down, we are telling you. Where will you go - everywhere people. Chaps, let's pull them out of this tank, they don't know what they are doing. Hush down the engine, stop it, who are you going to shoot at - at own lads?
Chaps, don't touch them, let's solve it normally, like normal people.
Hush down the engine, stop it."

Judging by the copious amount of cursing the civilians are very angry because they suspect this tank is headed for the city of Slaviansk. The poor tank crew seemed clearly frightened and ashamed and the tank commander did the only right thing: he climbed out of the tank, begged to crowd not to touch it (he is personally responsible for it) and tried to convince the crowd that they didn't plan on shooting anyone. The tank commander looks like a nice young guy placed in an impossible situation and the civilians understood that. The residents were angry because initially the tank crew tried to avoid them. The good news is that level heads were saying "stop screaming! stop screaming!" and cooled down the angry crowd. And no, despite all the weasel worded screeching implications from our State Department, there weren't any Spetsnaz GRU in disguise or any sign of Russians at all.

If these civilians had been military, even without anti-tank weapons, they could have easily set this tank on fire. In other words, complete total chaos for the putchists in Kiev who weren't counting on Ukranian military not wanting to kill their fellow compatriots.


And all those who claim to "know" Russians are causing the chaos can't provide a shred of credible evidence to back up their claims except for "clothes and guns look Russian" and "they look organized". Of course they have uniforms and look "organized". Half of the Ukrainian army has defected in the East, the Berkut force was disbanded by the interim govt and most of police are siding with protestors -- there's plenty of organized and armed people to go around. And the unarmed locals, men, women and teenagers are out in full force too as evidenced by all the videos.

It was local civilian activists who peacefully disarmed the 25th Brigade of Ukrainian paratroopers sent over there and then provided food and civilian clothes for them.

The idea of shooting at one's own people at the whim of questionable 'government' in Kiev seems utterly unimpressive to Ukrainian soldiers and reservists.

On this video from Donetsk, you can see some Ukrainian military vehicles raising Russian flags, while others raise the flags of the Donetsk



Here's another video. Kramatorsk residents at the local Malotaranovka railway crossing blocking a convoy of 15 military vehicles.





Ukrainians don't want fight with Ukrainians and they don't want to fight with Russians all for the grand Austerity prizes like 50% pension cuts, higher retirement ages, loss of social services etc in IMF's Cracker Jack box. Surprise surprise.



In other important news, though you wouldn't know it from the corporate press,



as reported in the EU press.



Interview is here in Finnish: http://yle.fi/uutiset/eun_tiedustelujohtaja_venaja_ei_ole_asemoitunut_sotilaallisesti_ukrainaan/7190544

I love reading your informed comments.

According to eyewitness reports, they refused orders to open fire on the civilians surrounding their vehicles, and have now become part of the anti-interim government forces.

http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-tanks-kramatorsk-civilians-840/

Mentioned only to help prevent some lame remarks.

I'm just glad to see some news that this impending disaster might still end in a mostly peaceful way.

At least it might if the CIA Director can keep his blood-covered, torturing hands to himself.

Russian moles in the Ukrainian army?

Obviously, they speak the same language. Not difficult at all to burrow from the inside out.
The only real difficulty will be in the referendums, as they won't be able to isolate the east and hold a gun to the residents' heads, as they did in Crimea. While there is support for Russia, all reports I read say there is no majority for actual secession from Ukraine, and annexation to Russia. It will be somewhat harder to stage-manage.

Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)

All three are SMALL Armored Personal Carriers designed for Airborne units. One looked like it had a 30mm cannon, which would make it a BMD-2. The other's I can NOT make out the turret's armament, but that would be consistent with BMD-1's very short barrel 73mm gun. In another video they had a brief view of the "Cannon" on one of the Vehicles, it looked like about 3 inch in diameter, which would be consisted with being a 73mm cannon on a BMD-1:

The Ukraine had 120 BMP-1s (Crew 2, can haul 5 infantrymen) in 2006 and 78 BMD-2s in 2005 (Crew 3, can haul five infantrymen)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/bmd-1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMD-1#Operators

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/bmd-2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMD-2#Operators

The "Tank" appears in some video to be a 2S9 Anona (Anemone)- 120mm SPH/Mortar, It also uses a BMD derived chassis so is an Airborne support weapon. Could be used as a "Tank" but lack the armor of a true tank AND the gun it carries has no where near the fire power of a tank:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/2s9.htm

Being Tracked vehicle, without support elements, useless in about 2-3 weeks (Tracks are the biggest limitation after fuel, Tracks last less then 2000 miles on average).

Side Note on Tracks: The US came out with Tracks that used rubber to connect the metal parts during WWII. These last about 2000 miles, while the older steel to steel connected tracks lasted about 500 miles. The Russians hated the American Tracks, reporting that they did NOT give proper traction in mud, snow or ice and during WWII would replace the US tracks with their own metal tracks. There have been no major change in how to make tracks since WWII (some improvements but the advantages and disadvantages of both are about the same to this day). I go with the 2000 miles mark, just to be on the safe side.

Thus I can NOT say how long will these tracked vehicles be usable, but sooner or later they will need to be worked on and all I saw was one truck to support them.

The big difference between the BMD-2 and the BMD-1 is their main armament. The BMD-1 used a 73mm smooth bore cannon to provide fire support. It is a marginal weapon and was replaced in the BMD-2 with a 30mm high velocity auto cannon. The 30mm is the premium Anti-aircraft weapon of the last years of the Soviet Union and of Russia today. The 30mm also has the ability to penetrate anything in armor, including the US M2 Bradly, except for Armor used in Main Battle Tanks (Such as the M1). The down side is its barrel life expectancy is about 2000 rounds (through it would be higher in a ground based weapon, air borne weapons tend to be made lighter and thus wear out faster then heavier ground based versions of the same weapon).

The 73 mm cannon is smooth bore and thus has a much longer life expectancy (it may be in thousands o round given it is smooth bore AND low velocity, I have NOT round across any life expectancy for it). I suspect the main reason the BMD-1 is still is use in both the Ukrainian and Russia armies is that its 73 mm cannon does not wear out and thus usable for decades. On the other hand, the 73 mm has limited range, no Anti-aircraft capacity, and limited anti-Armor capacity.

I can see an airborne unit putting one or two BMP-2s in units armed with BMP1s, just to provide them with increase AA capacity. Thus the mixing of types does not surprise me. A typical Soviet Armor Company consisted of 10 tanks, broken into platoons of three tanks each (with one tank as Company headquarters tank). This is much smaller then a Western Tank Company (17 tanks to a Company, Five to a Platoon with two tanks as Company Headquarters). How much the Airborne units follow this pattern I do not know.

On the other hand the BMD series were designed to carry only five men internally, unlike the larger BMP and BTR series of Soviet/Russian Armor Infantry vehicles. The number of men on each vehicle implies either a bigger breakdown in the discipline in the Ukrainian Army then the Ukraine is willing to admit or people in town getting on the vehicles for a ride. I suspect the former, but the later can not be dismissed. I can see a Company, being reduced to five vehicles do to lack of parts (the Ukraine has a history of not maintaining its military vehicles) defecting. That would explain the lack of vehicles (they took the best five out of the ten assigned to them) and put everyone else on top of the vehicles to defect. Thus this may be a whole company of Airborne troops (100 or more men) not just five vehicles and their Crew (35 men).

In simple terms, the Army is NOT united and as such incapable of being used against any revolt by any group of people in the Ukraine (This includes both the Radical right wingers from the Western Ukraine tied in with the present Government AND the Russian Speaker people of the Easter Ukraine). The Army may be effective against a foreign invasion by Russian Forces, but only if the intervention is a clear land grab, not done as part of a peace keeping action to protect ethnic Russian living in the Ukraine.

The Ukrainian Army can move against people who provide no resistance, but once resistance is fairly certain, it will back off. That would explain its ease at taking over the airport that was reported earlier, the people holding the airport left, so the Ukrainian Army moved it. Some shots were exchanged but no real fighting.

A good historical example of this was Canadian Militia during the War of 1812. When the British moved against Fort Detroit, they dressed the Canadian Militia in regular British Uniforms. The Americans holding Detroit saw them march to the Fort and decided they were British Regulars not Militia and decided to vacate the Fort. Some shots were exchanged but the British took Fort Detroit with the assistance of the Canadian Militia.

Later on, when the US invaded Canada and took on the British and Native American Army at the Battle of the Thames, the Canadian Militia was still present, but ignored by the Americans. The reason was simple, the Canadian Militia did not know want to do. Most of their Fathers had fought at Bunker Hill, while most of their Officers had surrendered at Yorktown or otherwise were involved with the British side during the Revolution. Thus the leadership wanted to fight, but the actual troops could not decide to fight for their King (Technically since their lived in what is now Ontario they were subject to the British Crown) or their Country (America). Thus in actual battle they were useless.

Worse. the British had a problem with the Canadian Militia. the fear that if the Militia was dissolved and sent home, what most of the militiamen would do is look up their cousins, bothers, brother in laws serving in the US Side and join up with the American Invasion force. Thus the British Army kept the Canadian Militia in service more to weaken the invading Americans then to strengthen their side.

Just an observation of what may be going on in the Ukrainian Army. Given a large segment of the population speaks only Russian, some units may be units that speak Russia, The modern Canadian Army has this feature, with French enlistees serving in French speaking units and English Speakers serving in attached English Speaking Units (often on a one to two basis, the first two units speak English, the third unit speaks French, thus today Canada's Army consists of Three Regiments, one speaks French the other two speak English).

More on the Canadian Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Army#Regular_force

The upside of such a situation is people in each unit understand each other, the down side is the different members of the different units do not intermix and come to think of themselves as different from the others. Thus this may be a Russian Speaking unit of the Ukrainian Army, that defected, leaving its Ukrainian speaking units behind. The Ukrainians speaking units may be able to operate without the Russian Speaking units, but most units train as one and thus both units are NOT as combat ready as they were when they were one unit.

I bookmarked numerous reports of more units switching sides and saying the same thing. Chaos coming if Kiev and its backers keep this up.

Of the five vehicles defected earlier, which all the videos are showing, no others, carry the following haul numbers:

914...2S9 with 120mm mortar is numbed 914
815...BMP-1 with 73mm cannon
813...BMD-1 with 73 mm cannon
709...A BMD but I can not determine its cannon, if it even has one, may be a command version w/o cannon
842...BMD-2 with 30mm cannon
847...BMD but again I can NOT tell if it is a BMD-1 or a BMD-2.

Please note, the original report said five vehicles defeated, yet I counted six haul numbers. It may be Five BMDs and their counted the 2S9 as something else.

I have NOT seen any vehicles under RUSSIA colors except those six vehicles, the video about other defections show Ukrainian Flags flying and later said the troops in those Vehicles surrendered, but no video of the vehicles under Russia Flags. Thus the only CONFIRMED vehicle defections are the above six vehicles.

I also ran across a new clip that said Ukraine has send in "National Guard" units to the Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.nationalturk.com/en/the-national-guard-ukrainian-troops-are-advancing-in-the-east-breaking-news-49521

A Ukrainian National Guard existed in the 1990 but disbanded on 1/1/2000, but was "Reformed" on 3-12-2014, it appears to be movement of those forces that participated in the protests that saw the ousting of Yankorvich and the installation of a new government

The reformation of a Ukrainian National Guard implies the Ukrainian Army is not trust worthy and thus the creation of this new unit without input from the Eastern part of the Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine

Someone does NOT trust the Ukrainian Army,

and with good reason. See this video interview with a Ukrainian soldier. He says they won't shoot. Unfortunately though, according to the latest RT wire, an APC that was blocked by civilian cars, just shot at one of them and injured 3 people (19:03 GMT)

Thanks for pulling so much information together. I'll look for vehicle numbers from now on and save them too. Great posts

Video here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=781790

Now you've got me looking at vehicle numbers lol! These aren't defections (from what we can see in these videos) but they were defeated. Are you keeping track of all numbers you run across? Let me know and I'll keep track too.

Vehicle # 823 (minute 0.26)
Vehicle # 823 (minute 0.33)

There's another number at minute 1:28 but I can't make it out. 757? I can't make out the other 3 at all.

This unit eventually surrendered but not very peacefully as you can see.

From another video



Vehicle # 840 (minute 0.05)

All I had before was this:

so I appreciate your link very much



I wonder if they're issued "88" lapel pins or patches.

Here is a group of Ukrainian soldiers telling western journalists that they don't want to shoot at anybody and gave themselves up. They say the citizens blocked them then helped them, gave them food and water, and they just want to go home, just go. They don't want to shoot.

http://www.bild.de/video/clip/ukraine/ukrainischer-soldat-will-nicht-schiessen-35596750.bild.html

The interview is in English