But I still believe we need to stay clear of this civil war. I am for sanctions against Russia, but NO TROOPS IN UKRAINE

for this utterly unnecessary and stupid debacle?

This makes the bay of pigs appear like a minor mistake.

Maybe she'll salvage what little honor she has left and resign.

(don't know whose ears to say anymore). But I agree with you.

She had her orders, I'm sure.

Hopefully the civil war will be very brief.

the pot and having it blow up in our face.

This was all unnecessary.

And what they may have wanted earlier this year?

Is that at all important to you?

It was a stupid thing to do. We should have stood behind the EU-Yanukovytch-Russia three party agreement and let Ukraine remain neutral and in the Russian sphere.

Instead, we went all Neocon-shit (like apeshit) on it and made it worse for everyone.

The verbal bravado by Kerry, Merkel, Obama et al was even worse. If one knows one can't take on Russia without heavy casualties, one shouldn't beat one's chest.

The sanctions are another stupid thing -- for the losses in bank accounts, Russians will simply ask for advance payment for energy supplies and recover their cash-flow. The Europeans are in no position to turn down that reasonable change in terms.

Remember, nothing in this world happens without Victoria Nuland and her magic coup cookies.

She may even overtake Mrs. Fields!

Victoria Nuland's special coupkies!! They will come in broken up pieces instead of a whole cookie.

old Kremlin playbook, not your new one

It works for Alex Jones....


You watch this yet?

The modern country of Ukraine traces its history to the Cossack Hematate, which was historically the core "Ukrainian" part of the territory. I don't see them losing that region, but a civil war could strip them of a lot of other territory. It's also highly unlikely that they'd lose the western portions of the country nowadays, but it's plausible that we could eventually see a return of Ukraine's ancient southern and eastern borders.

I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but simply that it's a possibility.

the end there. I keep having to do that with every post I make about this situation. I think Russia will eventually retake all of Ukraine, but it's a long, long way to Moldova. Additionally, I would not be surprised if Ukraine does better under Russian rule than Ukrainian rule.

But I could be mistaken

My personal philosophy toward secession movements is pretty simple. If a nation can adequately represent and respect all of its various constituencies, ethnicities, and cultures, then the government and nation have a legitimate claim to stay together. If, however, a government cannot (or will not) represent all of its citizens fairly and equally, then the underrepresented groups have a right to break away and form their own nations where they can be represented.

This is tricky in the case of Ukraine as it's a democracy, but their "Ukrainianization" policies have made it obvious that the government has little interesting in representing and preserving minority constituencies, preferring instead to pursue cultural homogenization. If the government in Kiev will not represent their interests, then I can't fault them for wanting to secede.

On that same note, however, I'd absolutely oppose Russia taking over all of Ukraine, and for that very same reason. Russia has its own history of Russification, and it's extremely unlikely that the ethnic Ukrainians could expect any sort of real representation within the Russian government. They would become the very "unwanted minorities" that they are currently trying to eliminate from their own country.

When Texans revolted against Mexico, it was largely over property taxes, tariffs with the United States, immigration (gee, what a surprise), and even the issue of slavery. A lot of Texans felt they were getting the short end of the stick from Bustamante and especially Santa Anna, so we fought, got our butts kicked, and finally won. Sure, we wanted to join the States, but we were a political hot potato at the time, so we became a republic for a few years until annexation was more doable.

As for you, Odessa, you have no Alamo or Goliad to speak of, and all of your revolutionaries are astroturf planted by Moscow. Maybe I'll collect your coins and postage stamps from your brief bout of statehood, but otherwise your declaration of independence seems to me like a transparent subterfuge.

.... By sheer mistake, they seem to have awakened a genuine uprising of millions of people who hate the fascists, and whose grandparents died fighting them. Tone deaf to a degree that faileth human understanding, the US and its puppets will be slow to realize — let alone come to terms with — the forces they have unleashed. It is the most significant push back — and the critical tipping point — since the whole rigamarole began, as it were.

To be more precise, it hasn’t quite happened overnight, though it seems it at the moment. US empire jumped the shark in Libya, when a groggy Russia and China were slow to shake off their stupor and realize just how great an existential threat the US war machine really was. They marched through country after country like the Black and Tans through Ireland, burning and pillaging as they “shot down wives and children in their own heroic way..” In Syria, Russia — and to a lesser extent, China — had steeled their resolve not to let it happen again, disappointing the blood-drenched hopes of the rabid dogs of DC along with their apologist cheerleaders across virtually the entire political ‘spectrum’ in the west. In Ukraine, they again managed to get a foot in the door. But blowback — that dreaded side effect and hangover of decades of US meddling — was swift and sure, catching by surprise even those most predisposed to expect it.

There is no going back. Led by the inspiration of the fed up people of Southeast Ukraine, the people, backs against the wall, are growing more confident and less afraid. And once a people loses their fear, they are a dangerous, awakened giant indeed. Of course, people can be killed — many will be. But who has taken on the Russians and won? Not to put too fine a point on it, but who do these western adventurers think they’re kidding? This is a people who have survived unimaginable privation, and more than once. In the west — especially in the US — a decent sized snowstorm strips shelves bare and sends people into a panic. To be more blunt, quoting the infamous General Buck Turgeson: “I’m not saying your average Russkie hasn’t got guts. I mean look how many them Nazzis killed off and they still wouldn’t quit!”

Or to be more poetic, I can quote a Russian friend:

For the first time in several decades, the Ukrainians and the Russians are in a position and willing to do something right: to take their country back and restore their dignity. And, we see, millions being awaken just to this simple and powerful idea. The 4th Reich is inadvertently awakening a giant–the people’s will and their new sacred cause. No one should underestimate the Russian soul. In comparison with it, the ego of the mightiest superman (Uberman) or Faustian in the West is just a cacophony of paltry frogs.

of "folks like them" - meaning fellow whites. Seeking to segregate the world into areas that are "pure" based on race, ethnicity, linguistics or religion is hardly a liberal enterprise. And our white nationalists would be the first to agree.

What was the world reaction? Did the US ever take a position on it? Just curious.

Moscow held strict control over its SSRs; none were considered to be independent states by any stretch of the imagination.

Thus, it was a shuffling of the deck within the USSR and really had no bearing on international affairs. I doubt the US had much reaction to it....much like I doubt the USSR would have cared if the US had hypothetically transferred Michigan's Upper Peninsula to Wisconsin.

It might be a good idea to read Harrison Salisbury’s Nine Hundred Days or maybe some books on the Battle of Stalingrad.
Longie

They are going to use the same excuse as they did in Crimea. I don't think the reaction will be the same.

YLE - Finnish national news broadcaster : television interview

The EU's intelligence Chief George Alafuzoff does not believe that Russia is attacking Ukraine. Alfuzoff argued opinion Rejected A-Monday evening in the Studio. -I do not believe that it would be in the interests of the State and to leave the Russian leadership to attack or to capture the area, which would tie Russia politically, economically, kultturellisesti one of a measure which would be difficult to get out of it. Alafuzoff also says that there is no evidence that the Ukraine would be at the moment, the Russian fighting forces. Instead, he says, it is likely that Russia has soluttanut in situ in the Ukraine.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/eun_tiedustelupaallikko_venajan_etu_ei_ole_edeta_ukrainaan/7194750

Translated using http://imtranslator.net/translation/finnish/to-english/translation/

EU intelligence chief Georgy Alafuzoff does not believe that Russia attacked in Ukraine. Alfuzoff bases its opinion on YLE Monday night's A-Studio. - I do not think that would be the Russian leadership and the state's interest to go to invade or take over the area, which would bind the Russian political, economic, kultturellisesti to any such action, which would be difficult to irti.Alafuzoff also says, that there is no evidence that Ukraine is currently in a Russian combat troops. Instead, in his view, it is likely that Russia has infiltrated the Ukraine scouts.

Translated using http://babblefish.com/language/free-language-translation/free-language-translators/

He says he does not think it would be a good idea for Russia to occupy Ukraine.

He says he does not thing Russian main forces are in Ukraine at present.

He says there are probably Russian 'scouts' ( which doubtless means special forces ) in Ukraine already.

This is pretty much what most people observing the situation understand to be happening.

I suggest that if U.S. special forces were operating in a country, and operating against its government, most people here would consider the U.S. had invaded the place, and they would be close enough, as they say, for government work....

I simply used the first line of the Finnish State TV article translated into English.

I can only suggest you go here http://yle.fi/uutiset/eun_tiedustelupaallikko_venajan_etu_ei_ole_edeta_ukrainaan/7194750 and pick a different translation site from the two I chose at random to confirm what was actually said.

That is a characterization of what is said, which is not actually correct. Even if it was not your own creation, you had the choice of putting it up as title, or creating a header which accurately described the contents.

simple question.