That should tell you how long it's been since I've been part of the Church!

I have been away from the Church for so long that I forgot that.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/18/how-this-pope-is-remaking-the-gop.html

A little over a year into Francis’s tenure, debate continues to rage throughout the church over the question of just how radical this pope really is, and the degree to which he might shift the Catholic spotlight from issues of sexual morality onto those such as poverty, immigration, torture, and even the environment. Not that issues of poverty and human dignity haven’t always concerned church leaders: “They just never got much attention if they didn’t involve a conflict over some sexual issue,” says John Carr, who served 25 years as the director of justice, peace, and human development for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). But in the Francis era, says Carr, “the same work takes on added meaning and, you hope, takes on added visibility and passion...”

It's about time! I've seen some Cow of Bashan in her expensive car with a sticker on the back saying that women who had abortions are going to hell. I think she needs to buy some flame proof underwear herself. I do no want to see anymore of these sexually obsessed people who find one flaw in another person and seek to legislate their lives from a distance, that they would never help in the first place. They make the world ugly.

Indeed, Rep. Paul Ryan may talk a good game about the poor, but his policies still give social-justice advocates an ulcer. Similarly, John Boehner may have invited the pope to address a joint session of Congress, but that doesn’t mean the speaker is looking to become his party’s point man on immigration reform.
Still, the wheels of government—like those of the church—move slowly. And just getting Washington talking about these issues in even a slightly new way is seen by many social-justice advocates as a solid first step.

I don't think anyone with an eye to what Ryan is up to would say 'he may talk a good game,' as I'm not fooled. His words about the poor and women are so full of hypocrisy, as to be what some would call demonic in the level of blatant hubris and deception. According to the words of the Man he purports to follow, or the Woman who gave him birth, he's going straight to hell. The real man that Ryan worships is Charles Koch and the Woman he worships, Ayn Rand, and as long as he does not denounce those things, he cannot co-exist on the same spiritual plane with any version of Jesus. His and their nihilism needs to be shut down for good.

And it is long past time to give up the love of power and wealth and champion equality and bring up the poor and the suffering. This was once a staple of media, at least it was when I was growing up. Now media promote the death of the poor as if it is a virtue. This was prophesied, but it's does not need a religious verse to say it is wrong. It has always been evil and it has kept mankind in chains. Ubuntu, where enjoyment is for all, not just a few, is a version of the Golden Rule. The cynics proclaim that Gold Makes the Rules, but that is because they are now satisfied with the status quo, despite their complaints. So I don't listen to them:

The ones you are noticing are more terrified than anything else. They are lashing out because they are comfortable; and to acknowledge what is happening is a threat to that comfort. Ignore them, for they are not the voices that will rise in the coming days, months and years. They are not the voices of our collected humanity. They are the old voices of fear and impotence.

~Anonymous

That the powerful cannot be curbed, that the poor are not worth loving, is not what Obama and many of us believe. The old Might Makes Right, he has said, must give way to Right Makes Might. The power of a good example. Mankind has known this forever.

Pope Francis is out to challenge “couch potato Catholics,” politicians most definitely included, chuckles Carr. He points with delight to passages from the pope’s Evangelii Gaudium that address the role of political leaders, including: “I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor! It is vital that government leaders and financial leaders take heed and broaden their horizons, working to ensure that all citizens have dignified work, education, and health care.” 

After 50 years of the GOP smearing minorities and the poor, this must make their heads explode. Obama has quietly done more for the poor and minorities in this nation than anyone else, but is demonized for his efforts. The right will continue their wailing and gnashing teeth over the ACA. I am almost tempted to go to the Red State website and see them. Or Freeperville. But their filth is like a cesspool. I'll just take the good report.

“This guy is a real challenge to the whole libertarian-leaning laissez-faire political idea,” says Winters of Francis. “There is a palpable sense among those of us on the Catholic left that the wind is at our back in a way that it has not been in at least 40 years.”

That is just what we need to go forward and leave the dark age we've been in for too long. Love and freedom cannot be separated. Love one another or perish.

Thanks for the news of some change coming for the better. It needs to be looked at and examined, nurtured and helped to grow.

They view this as just as charitable.

Far too many people (guess who?) in this country, and the world, don't give a damn about them.

Former Catholic, but I will give the Pope kuddos when the situation warrants it.

What's significant is that he washed the feet of a Muslim and a woman. Now he got their cooties. The conservative faction must be apoplectic.

And he is still hideously and vehemently anti-progressive on most issues. A few staged PR stunts don't change the fact that he and his organization oppose abortion rights, reproductive rights, gay rights, women's rights and victim's rights, and try to impose their religious dictates on non-Catholics through political strong-arm tactics.

Why this man gets so much fawning praise on a progressive website is a continuing mystery. If an American politician or political organization held the positions he does, they'd be savaged here on a daily basis, and rightly so.

I may not agree with all of the Catholic Church's positions on the subjects you mentioned, but I do like this Pope and think that he's a breath of fresh air compared to what they had before.

attempt to influence the laws and public policy of sovereign nations and to strong-arm Catholic politicians into basing their voting decisions on Catholic doctrine, rather than sound public policy considerations, then he fucking well IS held to a politician's standard, and subject to the same criticism.

He is THE leader of a church that has spent untold millions actively lobbying against human rights for gays and equal rights for women. The Vatican holds very influential sway at the United Nations, not to mention the governments of individual countries. And do please let me know when he speaks out against the ongoing torture, imprisonment and persecution of LGBTs in places like Uganda, Nigeria and Cameroon, laws that have been supported by his own bishops and archbishops.

Don't like the Church? Fine, that's your prerogative. As is my prerogative to like this Pope.

"“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.” "

Those are his words. His work to block a bill that would have allowed same-sex couples to marry in Argentina.


It's your prerogative, sure, but don't pretend that position is above reproach.

But because he's "just" an avowed homophobe and misogynist that's okay, then? Well thanks for letting us know.

Human beings, as a rule, do not believe things on purely or even primarily rational, logical deliberation. I don't know why we should suddenly expect people to do so, especially because-if history is any guide-the Age of "Reason" (scare quotes necessary) in the "Western" world is really the exception to the historical rule.

and spouting feel-goody platitudes matters if you're playing a PR game, and cynically trying to manipulate people into thinking that you're not a bigot, a sexist and a homophobe, or that you shouldn't be criticized for it. But some of us dismiss all that for what it is. Sadly, a lot of supposed progressive are in the group that's been gulled.

Predictably, at least one supposed progressive is in the group that hates regardless of positive actions.

must be brainwashed, or duped, or (in your words) "gulled."

But the free-thinking, individualistic, self-described "skeptics" know better than all of the masses, because they are (or claim to be) free of irrational biases and prejudices.

"it is necessary to emphasize the right of children to grow up within a family, with a father and a mother able to create a suitable environment for their development and emotional maturity. Continuing to mature in the relationship, in the complementarity of the masculinity and femininity of a father and a mother, and thus preparing the way for emotional maturity," -Bergoglio 4/11/2014

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.” - Bergoglio, letter, 2010 opposition to same sex marriage in Argentina.


He's a bigot, and I don't give a shit how many feet he washes. He's a bigot regardless.

who view Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush or Rush Limbaugh or Pat Robertson positively? All the ones who think the earth was created 6000 years ago? Would you call them rational, clear-thinking, well-informed, progressive-minded folks? Or would you condemn them with words rather like you used here, just as many other DUers do on a regular basis?

Argumentum ad populum is a bad way to make your case...sorry.

imho, it's not "progressive" to engage in such black-and-white thinking.

It may be several more generations of popes before we get one who truly is progressive...I'm a lapsed Catholic who abhors much of the church's teachings but can recognize that this pope IS an improvement in certain areas over previous popes.

But Ratzinger was a little less credible, wrapping himself in gold and other shit while he was doing it.

But they said the same things. The wrapping paper on the message is slightly different is all.

n/t

Again, Ratzinger and Francis said the same things about the rich. So did Paul II

n/t

I asked in what way he's better or even different.

have a look...you've participated in other threads discussing this same issue. Francis is an improvement, certainly around highlighting poverty.

Happy Easter!

disparity of wealth, taking care of the poor, all things Francis is doing now.

I found nothing new in this thread that I cannot point to the previous two popes as having done, EXCEPT, when Francis does it, he does not wrap himself in red velvet, and sit on a golden throne as he does it. That's it.

That's the only difference I can find.

then that's how you see it. To each his own, yanno?

I suppose a sea change in appearance can represent a huge shift for some people. My preferences lay in deeds, not the packaging.

If I had to sum Francis up in a word about his care about the poor, it is that he seems sincere, where Ratzinger did not seem sincere. But that's the best I can do.

by blatant pandering. Now when he actually makes some meaningful strides to combat the various scandals and issues that face the church, call me.

And no, press releases don't count. Turning priests over to the authorities en masse, now that would impress me.

I guess such things are supposed to make us forget that he is probably the most visible & powerful anti-gay, anti-woman leader in the free world. And it's always so nice to come to DU and see some DUers fawning over a man who considers us the work of the Devil.

I'm glad this pope is light years ahead of the last one but he is still has light years to catch up.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

Pope Francis on gay rights: His 5 worst quotes

1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

2. Gay marriage will destroy the family

More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:

“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family… At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children.

3. Gay parenting is a rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts

Again:

“At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

4. The political struggle against marriage equality is war

And finally:

“The bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. Look at San Jose, Maria, Child and ask them [to] fervently defend Argentina’s family at this time. [Be reminded] what God told his people in a time of great anguish: ‘This war is not yours but God’s.’ May they succor, defend and join God in this war.”

5. Gay adoption is discrimination against children

According to the National Catholic Reporter, Francis called gay adoption a form of “discrimination against children.” A comment that resulted in a public rebuke from Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said that Francis’ remarks suggested “medieval times and the Inquisition.”

Amen.

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." --John 10:16

This progressive Christian thinks that Pope Francis is the best thing to happen to the Roman Catholic Church in my lifetime! There's still a lot to be done, but the shutters are being opened, and fresh air and light are again present.

who were victimized by all those priests who were then shuffled from parish to parish.

that have issues with the Catholic Church. While I am not Catholic, I have such good feelings about this Pope. He goes about his business in a low key manner but he drops bombshells in the process. But his words seem heart felt and sincere. I am no bible scholar, but what he says and does seems close to the intent of the words and actions of Jesus.

and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.”? Or that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children?

Those words? You call yourself a progressive, and you have "good feelings" about someone who says such bigoted and hateful things?

I don't get how "progressives" can cheer on these misogynistic homophobes doing their evil business in the Vatican, no matter how many photo ops the Big Hats do.

haters are going to hate. There are people so blinded by their vitriol that they can only see and feel their own hate.

I am reminded of the story of the man trapped in his house by the rising flood waters. The water was up to his front porch. A neighbor came by and offered him a seat in his row boat. The man declined and said Jesus would save him. The neighbor rowed away. The water kept rising and the man was forced to the roof of his house. A local fire department came with a motor boat and offered him a seat. The man refused saying that Jesus would save him. Despite their pleas, the man refused. Have calls from other trapped people, the motor boat had to take off.

The water rose even higher and the man drowned. Upon entering heaven, the man asked Saint Peter why Jesus let him drown, to which Saint Peter replied, "Jesus tried, he sent two boats to get you."

So how do you know that Pope Francis isn't sent here to do house cleaning and hasn't already started. From what I read in the Scriptures, Jesus wasn't very popular with most folks either.

Kids need a loving home and not necessarily one with one mother & one Father but two parents of any match that will show them love.

And for the children that have one mother & one father that are abused & neglected. those are the one's you need to pray for.

Peace.

We make it work without abuse or neglect... Or help every damn day.

Washing others feet, while he has his own in his mouth. He probably secretly has a foot fetish.

I'm sure you have some substance ti support that stupid remark.

Don't need substance if you have faith, right?

Common error.

The one I was in, just before what most would call "communion," had foot washing. That would have been last Sunday night, I think, if I were still in that church.

You might wind up washing the feet of somebody making $350k/year or somebody who was retired and struggling to survive on Social Security. It might be the person you personally find the most unpleasant or even wrong on most points, or the nicest person in the congregation. Doesn't matter. You didn't get to pick and choose, to decide who's better than anybody else or who's worse. In this, there was no difference. Everybody has the lowest "job."

No footwashing, no communion.

Gee.............

Christians are asked to love and forgive all of humanity, how many are able to do that?
Peace be with you.

They just have no respect for those who they don't like or approve.

Peace be with you too.

my ignorance was really showing, as I don't keep up with any holidays.

I smiled, thanked them and wished them the same. I'm not churched, but I'm hoping that you enjoy the day and the weekend.

For you:

Thank you for the lovely video.

and applied therapeutic massage. For some reason it is always a remarkable and touching experience. It seems to relax my younger patients, often minimizing their pain. Older people appreciate the warmth of the water and the increased circulation that follows. I myself find that I connect in a more profound way with the people entrusted to my care as I can actually feel their tensions ease.

We seldom touch in our society, outside of lover to lover or mother to child.

I understand that the Pope does this as a symbolic gesture, but beyond that, simple human touch is beneficial to both the receiver and the giver.

helped me with my feet some time back when I couldn't move very well. Still can't. She saw it as meaningful as a Christian, but done doesn't have to do it for that reason. I know people in congregate care who get therapeutic care as you describe doing. It really helps make sense of their day or evening. Hard to explain. And your take on human touch is also wise, it's true, there's not much of that. I have one friend whose hug is very healing as if an energy of lover passes through here. Nice post, thanks.

is to represent Christ the servant. It is a humble gesture from the son of God.

I too am a Nurse. Many of those that are bed bound or on a coma do not get the normal sensory stimulation from the feet. I make it a special point to touch or wash the feet of those while I talked about the days events. I had a patient that was comatose for two years. Many time when I came into the room and greeted her, she would wiggle her feet. Miraculously she came out of her coma. Many of the other aides and Nurses complained that she was a difficult patient, but I never had any trouble with her. I can't be sure but I think she felt comfortable with me because of how I interacted with her while she was in a coma.

uncharitable to the oligarchs?

Like ex-communicating a Supreme Court justice or two.

I am otherwise unimpressed. Nothing but spectacle.

He seems to care about the people...and may very well bring some nice changes to the church.

however, I don't believe that it negates the positive actions of Pope Francis. It appears to me that he is attempting to divert the over zealous attention that the church has been preoccupied with human sexuality to the fundamental teachings of Jesus who apparently wasn't morbidly focused on what people were doing sexually.

I would hope that he addresses Catholic politicians, such as Ryan, that their attempts to suppress the poor are antithetical to the basic teachings of Jesus. He should remind them of the teachings of Jesus in Mathew Ch. 25 that if they actually claim to be Christians that their actions are putting them in jeopardy of eternal damnation. Perhaps we could conclude that in reality they only claim to be members of the church solely for political purposes along with their other numerous fabrications. As a cynical friend of mine admitted that he was active in the his church because it was good for business.