to defend the vote and continue to insist that it's the "will of the Crimean peoples?" Or will they hope like hell your post sinks like a stone?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh, and no dissing the Pootster...cuz that's baaaad!!! He's just an interested bystander, and all!

Hell /r/worldnews on Reddit was being vote brigaded and while some suspect it was happening due to internal mod wars, it just so happened when this story dropped.

It's also fascinating to see the response narrative get tailored and fashioned in real time.

Do you believe the claim that turn-out was 83% and the vote 96% in favor of annexation is true?

"What was your name in the States?
Was it Wilson or Johnson or Bates?
Did you rifle the till?
Did you flee from your bills?
Tell me what was your name in the States?"

And if he's got a friend or a hundred, or even more, doing the same thing, a lot of sleazy and cheesy "opinion" can get shopped around.

I hope they get paid well; I think engaging in that kind of shit is worse than prostitution. "RT" on an individual level--they probably need a long shower after the workday ends.

It'll fail, though, if they can't keep their personas straight! All that hard work, flushed down the pan...they'll have to start all over. Hope MIRT is on the case!

There's a lotta that nonsense going on right up in here--it's not even subtle.

but they may need something that crosses the line before they expel them. There are many long time DU people who might quote the same sources, but it is clear where they are coming from -- mainly a distrust for the interventions of the US. With some of the new people, their language does not quite ring true.

One thing that has to be questioned is anyone who thinks that finding something wrong in the actions of the US/EU/Ukraine interim government automatically means that Russia is in the right.

Yesterday, I saw a very good article and even better series of comments (including from the journalist of the article) on Al Jazeera. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-lies-propaganda-west-age-20145384527678726.html More than anything else I have read, the combination of the article and the comments did show the different perspectives. It is interesting that the article which starts with an "anti western" perspective ends up in the discussion at a far more neutral place.

Most interesting is that the journalist brings up the promise of the Bush 1 administration not to have NATO move eastward - essentially agreeing to forever keeping those countries in Russia's sphere of influence. In the comments, the question is asked of whether that disrespects the preferences of people in those countries.

This discussion explained more clearly to me why -- that these countries should be able to have economic and other ties both ways (which seemed totally reasonable to me) could be seen by Russia as a loss - and one they refuse to accept. It explains why Russia's narrative starts with the ousting of the President -- not the President's rejection of ties with EU in spite of the fact that he actually ran for election calling for them.

I also sympathize with the evident desire of peoples long subject to Russian dominance, whether Czarist or Soviet, to be shut of it.

I am sympathetic to 'buffer' arguments, in a situation where military action, actual invasion, is a possibility, but no one is going to invade Russia from the west, and everyone knows that.

I have no sympathy whatever for arguments which boil down to 'powerful state 'Y' should have the sole right of economic exploitation of smaller neighbors 'A', 'B', and 'C'. This is pretty much the basis of Russian actions and attitudes towards Ukraine, and no more than I support U.S. interferences in Central and South American affairs, on that 'only I can cream off profit from my smaller neighbor' grounds can I countenance what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

Your analogy with US interferences with Central and South America is very apt. It is very consistent - and a good parallel - to reject both the US interferences (like aiding the Contras) as well as the Russian interferences with Ukraine, Moldova and other countries in that area.

I try to apply a uniform standard, and to do so consistently. When I see others do so, I consider a mark of understanding, and when I see someone do otherwise, take it as indicating they understand nothing.

"Once, discussing the foundation of doctrine, the Master asked a student, 'Do you think I have learned a great many things and remember them all?' The student replied, 'Yes. Is that not so?' And the Master said, 'No. I have a thread runs through it all."

The admins have the ability to check for socks, too; I hope they are doing that when warranted.

In this case, there would be the cultural and language differences that would be very difficult to keep hidden - if the people are Russian. The idea that Americans, even if they agreed that the US/EU should have not taken any role in Ukraine, would accept a job - paid or unpaid - where they worked to get out a message coordinated by the Kremlin that is - at least in part - against the US government is appalling.

That they think this could be useful, might be why they are further tamping down any freedom of speech in Russia. (It is ironic when people here reference that the US is not on the top of international lists on freedom of the press -- but they ignore that Russia is very near the bottom! )

It is clear that in both trying to keep other POVs out of Russia -- and working to get their POV in international sources, they are saying that words and advocacy can work.

I don't quite understand why anyone would want to be a party to it...but the parts are understandable.

Like advertising, there's the hook --some part of the cultural values that can be leveraged. "So let's negotiate, let's discuss." Right? Who's against that? "All of the parties involved." Again, no objection. But before you know it's the President who should be negotiating with C. Bundy and the local self-appointed militia, which in turn becomes an endless, circular, tangential mess. There are plenty of unpaid actors who will get involved.

But the purpose isn't winning or resolution or POV sharing, the purpose is the conflict and confusion which ends up degrading the cultural value and creates distrust. The topic is never the point.

I'm not kidding about it being part of doctrine. Though it's very generalized here:

"First Phase: non-military asymmetric warfare (encompassing information, moral, psycho-logical, ideological, diplomatic, and economic measures as part of a plan to establish a favorable political, economic, and military setup)."

That's from a Latvian military assessment of Crimea in regards as to how they should prepare.

For what it's worth, the Koch bros use the same method to defend coal and bash renewables. But at least they don't have an army. That I know of.

Ha, I didn't know about that. I've got to get out more...

http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-poll-indicates-most-russians-dont-favor-annexation-but-many-yearn-for-soviet-re-union/

Bloggers are still puzzled how they are to measure their “3,000 readers,” but the law enables the government essentially to force any blog they don’t like to apply for media status — and risk rejection. A little-noticed aspect of the law introduces the concept of “organizer of dissemination of information,” which is interpreted by the drafters very broadly, to mean anything from a personal web site to a group on a social network. All media must cooperate with intelligence agencies by keeping records of their users’ metadata for 6 months. Violators of the law can be fined or blocked for a month and ultimately could be banned. The vagueness of the law has prompted a joke on Twitter from a parody account of the Russian Foreign Ministry:

Туалет Казанского вокзала с посещаемостью 15 тыс. чел. в сутки был зарегистрирован как СМИ после появления на стене надписи "ПУТИН – ПИДОР"

— Мuд Роисси (@Fake_MIDRF) April 23, 2014

Translation: @Fake_MIDRF The toilet at the Kazan Station visited by 15,000 people a day was registered as mass media after appearance on the wall of a graffiti, “PUTIN IS A PED0?.

I hope their sense of humor is never lost.

that followed this fake vote. Searching on: crimea observers Enrique Ravello
gets these headlines from Russian fake news sites:

That weighs very heavily on my mind. We just don't need another World War--I just don't think we can deal with it on a global scale. If you look at the timeline, I suppose we're "overdue" for one, but I'd really like to think after two stupid ventures where we fed way too many youngsters into the grinder, that we'd just not do that dumb shit anymore.

I wish Putin would trip and hit his head. BADLY. He needs to stop indulging in this megalomaniacal nonsense.

Nothing says a good clean election like armed guards at the poling stations with clear plastic ballot boxes in view of everybody.
Not to mention a fully Combat Ready Army postioned at the border.

We may not be perfect here in the US but when your election results look like a North Korean Presidential election, the fish has been left out too long.

When the USA has several state owned media companies & the rest are too intimidated to report anything negative about the Great Leader Putin for fear of eating glow in the dark sushi or being locked away in Siberia...Then we can begin to compare propaganda budget! Putin is former KGB who were masters of propaganda used on their own people!

Just the fact you asked such a ridiculous question forces me to assume you are either grossly ignorant on the topic of Russian or you have another mission...Russian propaganda, maybe?

$1.4 Billion that was converted to pounds even though I used a dollar sign. That was in 2010. The comment was on Russia's involvement in Scotland's independence referendum.

The Russian-trolls should be banned from DU - they are liars, every single one of them.

representative.

Had things not happened the way they did in Kyiv it has been my perception they would have ordinarily just wanted "protection" from what most considered an illegitimate and extremist regime (like federalization), but the tensions and Right Sector's attempts to get into Crimea pushed them further toward Russia.

You have repeatedly defended federation as a solution. You even have taken Ukraine's rejection of the specific Russian proposal to refute the fact that Ukraine - even before Russia suggested federation was working on reforms that decentralized some powers. (This would be like you saying that because I do not eat pork, I do not eat meat. They are for some extension of power to the "states", but not the extremely weak centralized government Russia has proposed as a solution.)

You may want to look at how much power is given to the Russian "states" in their federation. You might note that it is NOTHING like what they are demanding Ukraine do. Any questions on your part why they are not doing themselves what they recommend Ukraine do?

But since official figures were given, you may recall, as 83% turnout with 97% in favor of joining Russia, even a back of the envelope level examination ought to have come up with something higher if the official figures are even approximately correct. Since it came in with figures well below the official tallies, it certainly gives some ground for questioning the truthfulness of the official claims regarding participation and proportion voting in favor.

"Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Imgsoc.'

Like happens in our government - shoddy workmanship or poor wording can end up on the web and create a "sensation". Not that I am suggesting (like the right wing) government work is generally not good, just that it happens.

On the whole, with the history and knowing the region, as most even in the press and in even many public figures admit that in the whole Crimea majorly tends toward the Russian culture.

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

So yes, I agree that likely most of the other 17% would have tended towards another option and I think that Crimea blundered in the way the vote proceeded, just like what is happening in Kiev in May it will be forever questioned for this reason.

But in Crimea it is actually pretty clear to any objective eye that the vast majority, given their closeness to Russia, indeed would have been in favor of unification (of Russia) given the circumstances.

As someone with a deep interest and personal knowledge of Ukraine and Crimea, I was terribly dissappointed. But I blame what happened on Kiev and their integration with Right Sector and Svoboda, that changed the dynamics severely. Most Crimeans would not have believed in the overthrow, but I believe that it would have been at least a close call for a preference to autonomy if Kyiv had avoided the appearance that they were in bed with Neo-Nazi's.

Seriously, you really believe that?

But given their history and the fact they consider the Interim administration to be illegitimate and "fascist", it is not really out of the realm.

I am pretty sure they actually have had, in general, a higher participation rate than we do. Add the situation...

The situation, for ethnic Russians, stirs up feelings even heavier than say, like we had when going to war in Iraq. There was a point during that fervor that I am sure if we had a vote that on actions there we may have had quite high numbers and a similar situation where those who did not support it would boycott.

But this is a nuanced view and I know you likely already have made up your mind and will probably fall on deaf ears?

And with that under your belt, you head off into the sunset to expose false narratives in the western press....

"It's all lies! lies against my boys!"

history and yes, Russian Propaganda). But even without the propaganda I am not at all alone, in fact the majority of scholars in the media admit that Crimea severely tends toward Russia and would *never* vote for anything that would isolate them.

Damn, but you are making me begin to regret having already sold the bridge....

Not to mention, you claim that those who did the survey did not have an adequate sampling frame from which to do it. However, if that were true, then the same problem exists for getting the original claimed % --- if you do not know the number eligible, you do not have the correct denominator.

What is clear to me is that given the power and history of Russia and that their allies were running the election, many might have thought the prudent course for their own safety and livelihood was to vote for Russia. No different than a strong dictator getting 99%!

You realize that surveys like this are accepted methods of determining validity of vote counts by international observer teams, right?

Arguing against them was B.S. by Republicans in 2000 and it is B.S. now.

than you.

Are you and have you ever been a communist Cha!

You certainly have not demonstrated anything beyond an ability to do a doubleplusgood duckspeak of the Russia Times line in discussions here.

and reduces your leverage in an argument.

And since part of your stock in trade is to insult the intelligence, and question the political orientation, of persons who do not go along with your propagandas, you have no grounds from which to complain even if you actually were called names....

You were posting under the name 'ballyhoo' there, and it is pleasant to see you confirm suspicions you post under multiple identities.

Here is a link to the exchange referenced for anyone interested:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014785674#post21

You invoked the legendary foo-bird, applying it to me, I replied you had flown up your own fundament long ago, you thought it a goiod retort to say that from there you had a better view of America, and I simply translated that into plain English...

I am looking for the post. But I may have confused the one where I was called "a fucking liar" (as name calling is quite prevalent on this topic) and that was (the asshole one) the one that I did the alerting on, but it was not directed at me.
The "fucking Liar" was someone else, not you, before you accuse me of something else.

I have not alerted on anyone for any comment directed to me. Someone posting under the name 'nyabingi' did have a post hidden, in which he called me an arrogant liar. If at some point you called me an asshole and the post was hidden I would not be surprised, either that you did it or that it was hidden. But your usage seemed to say I had had a post hidden for address to you, and the post I referenced is the only one close to the description.

Of course, now you have raised the possibility you post under yet a third name....

"Always tell the truth, it's easier to remember."

this is being verified.

are talking about.

Like clockwork when it comes to the Defense of Pootie Society! If there isn't a salary involved, there should be, for that kind of devotion!

Vlad can do no wrong, doncha know--he's misunderstood...and he rides a bear, shirtless! Swoon!

about it, mf. I'm in America in your face asshole.

Oh hi Oh

calls for wars of aggression.

a Ukrainian Protection Group, sir. How can she be objective in her Crimea Voting Tale?...sir

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/author/halya-coynash/

http://khpg.org/en/

There is a link to the original source. It has been translated by her accurately, and the numbers extracted honestly.

I know it is not the sort of source you prefer to cite, nothing like 'wide awake gentile':

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post10

Nor does it contain any ringing endorsement of ethnic cleansing directed at Roma, as you posted up here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014790244#post13

For that matter, it does not even contain a call for invasion of Ukraine, such as you ringingly proclaimed in the wee hours last night, though you lacked the intestinal fortitude to stand by it and went back with a self-delete after seeing the obloquy it called down on you.

On Tue May 6, 2014, 08:26 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

Whatever has to be done to stop this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=797508

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Again, linking to a rightist troll site:

here is a sample of its content:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/13/validating-the-second-amendment/

Political hack, Harry Reid’s effort to repay political cronies using the federal government Bureau of Land Management to steal Mr. Bundy’s cattle and ranch started the whole confrontation

Does anyone still doubt why the Founding Father gave us the Second Amendment in the Constitution of the United States? Do the idiots wishing to disarm America by doing away with an armed citizenry ever use their brain other than to keep their ears from flapping together? Is not the example of the Bureau of Land Management’s recent stand-off with Cliven Bundy and the armed cattle ranchers in Nevada enough proof to show what would be the fate of every American were not the public formidably armed and determined to stand up to a never ending over-reach of the Federal Government?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue May 6, 2014, 08:42 AM, and voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is not the only right wing site this poster has linked to. Hide.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Linking to that site should get somebody banned
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Really? A RW site you link to?

Thank you.

I disagree with a lot of what this poster was showing, but it is unnecessary to 'rub it in his face' sort to speak. Especially from someone who is usually stark in context and of being very gentile of manners. Frankly Sir, don't be rude. Even to an idiot.

I think it is beneficial to show the quality of the support for Putin's fascism and imperialism which is presented to us here.

and have gotten posts hidden for it. They shouldn't be here anymore.

I remember a couple of threads on the vote in crimea where people defended this vote http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024682996 and http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024693868 I am glad that my position that this vote was a joke has been vindicated.

Yes, I read about that on Forbes news. "Putin's 'Human Rights Council' Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results" link http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/

The fate of Crimea, therefore, was decided by the 15 percent of Crimeans, who voted in favor of unification with Russia (under the watchful eye of Kalashnikov-toting soldiers).

To make sure no one misses this:

Official Kremlin results: 97% for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and percent of Crimeans voting in favor 82%.

President’s Human Rights Council results: 50% for annexation, turnout 30%, percent of Crimeans voting in favor 15%.

I am sure the lady who put it up first did so in good faith, but it is far from a straight report.

The article linked to here in the O.P. is a much cleaner piece, and contains a link to the actual source of the numbers.

Among other distortions in the Forbes piece, the author says the information had been scrubbed: it has not, or certainly was not when he wrote his piece, nor some hours afterwards when I linked to it. That kind of thing is no better than what one would expect in an RT leader....

Our medias are loaded with distortions/misinformation over the Ukraine/Putin issues. I fear for Ukraine. Putin will run his countrywide 'vote' on the 25th?, with again the same bogus vote results for the entire country.

Thanks for posting the article links in the OP.

The May 25 balloting is proposed by the Kiev government, to select replacement for the interim government in place at present.

Putin's people in Donets have declared they will hold a secession referendum on May 11.

A good deal of Russian action at present is aimed at preventing the May 25 vote being carried out nation-wide.

Of course anything done on May 11 will be a sham, and impress only stooges and dupes. The Crimea vote will look on the square in comparison with it.

How can we inform the people of Ukraine and Putin occupied Crimea, of the real results from the Crimea vote? Putin has taken over their media access.

Once Putin has another sham vote for Ukraine, the 11th!, there will be a repeat of Crimea. Putins thugs will get rid of the local leadership and occupy the entire country.

And there is not much of anything that can be done which would take immediate effect.