Since the opposition candidates were harassed, beaten, and threatened until they left the race. Leaving only the far right and a couple of oligrarchs in the running.

The good news is that even the majority of folks in West Ukraine have not liked nor identified with the minority group that took power and it appears the most moderate Oligarch will win. If he wins he will be pretty much accepted just because he seems to be more interested in working with both sides of the country... even if he will be likely to continue the same corruption as before, the hope will be that he will end the radical attitudes of the current pres and PM.

Because, respectfully, you would be wrong. I don't believe there has been any functioning Democracy since the overthrow. Before that there was corruption but there was also democracy. And it appears there will still be lots of corruption but restoring Democracy will take some time now.

At the same time I am not going to try and argue that in general the East was not opposed to the current government. And in Crimea, while it was not a perfect election (Not just because of Putin but because of Kyiv as well there was no way to express the will of the people with full transparency), but given the general situation there is plenty of other evidence supporting that ultimately this direction was the way the majority wanted.

I mean there was a pew poll taken several weeks later that showed 88% of the population wanted Kiev to accept the ballot results there. polls are not a perfect instrument of democracy but they are somewhat reflective of democratic will. That should be respected.

You might also be surprised to learn that I am deeply disappointed that, basically in their fear of Power in Kiev, Crimea chose Russia. I think that may turn out to be a mistake. But I am not going to debase the people there by making them out to be "Putin's sheep", and where we likely differ is I believe (I know really) that it was ultimately the junta in Kiev and their tolerance of Neo-Nazi militants that brought about the inertia and drove Crimea into Russia.

People react to threat by seeking what they see to be a strong safe hand. Just like after 9/11 where our own people were driven by fear to accept some very bad decisions and we are still living with the results of that. But Crimeans were not afraid of Russia (as the media proclaimed), they were afraid and concerned (and outraged) by the overthrow of the government by a minority made of many who are extremists.

Of course, they weren't worth that much, maybe a few thousand, but that's how he embezzled the money. Set up a shell corporation, that he owned, the shell corporation installs the fancy light fixtures, then he takes the money and runs.

It's sick how these neo-oligarchs steal steal steal and get away with it. Well Yanukovych didn't, as Maidan proved.

difference is they ones milking the money from government here don't even need to become president.

This isn't come company lobbying a congress person and then getting a contract with the government. This isn't some guy getting a job in the industry after voting to give someone a contract in the same industry.

This is someone actually making up a fake company and overcharging beyond reason for something.

Now it happens here, but generally, you go to jail when it happens.

Anyway, your whataboutism doesn't really matter here, I can condemn it when it happens here just as I can condemn it when it happened in Ukraine.

other. You are going to get some people calling you on that.


It is naive (if not purposely dishonest) to make it sound like the current Kyiv government is anywhere near "the light".

And that's why the EU was sought, because Russia is not tying up the corruption. Just look at the Olympics and how $20-30 billion dollars was stolen from the Russian people. Poof. Gone.

The US may be the worst case example of political game-man-ship and political pocket lining, it sucks, but Russia is the worst case example of wholesale theft from a peoples. When the bankers got their bonuses under TARP, it was complete bullshit. TARP should've been conditioned on limits to bonuses, but nope. The bankers had their "tight as a drum" contracts that said they got X bonus if they were forced to resign (which of course they were). Is that bad? Of course it is. Is it $30 billion bad? Nope, the bonuses were about $2 billion all told. Is it theft? Yes. Legal theft and a true show of poor political maneuvering by the Obama administration.

I was challenged on it and eventually came to realize that much of the distinction is in tactics, but, at least at this time in history, they are looking more and more like two sides of the coin.

What about the billions that have been flat out "displaced" in our military budgets? What about the Trillions that were given to the big banks to lend, that were instead used to enrich themselves?

Even 20 years ago I would have agreed with you. But not in this period.

The military graft? Those people should be absolutely prosecuted. $60 billion just disappeared in Afghanistan. $60 billion dollars!

VICE did a documentary recently about Afghanistan junk yards and how, quite literally, the US would destroy vehicles there and then sell them to scrapyards. $6 billion. Tossed. Destroyed. I can't find a VICE link (it was on their HBO show a week or so back) but here's an NPR article. What lobbyist for the MIC decided to do that? Humvee truck engines, shot with a 50 cal. gun, so that they aren't operable. It surely would not have cost $6 billion to ship them back home?

As far as the trillion dollar figure I think you're talking about some accounting thing, because TARP was only about $500 billion and 90% of it has been paid back (the $50 billion or so left over is due to some banks going insolvent or not being brought out; but the way it was set up all the other banks have to pay it off so it'll get paid regardless). I've heard about trillions going to banks but if I recall correctly it was some stupid accounting trick. Money is magical it doesn't really exist, it only holds value if society deems it so.

that they used to create easy profits and bet in the stock market instead of loaning out to kick up the economy.

http://business.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/11/28/9067808-fed-lent-banks-nearly-8-trillion-during-crisis-report-shows

That was all just an accounting thing for the most part, as far as I'm concerned.

The report talks about "total financial assistance": http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf

Basically if the $500 billion TARP bailout didn't happen, we would've lost $16 trillion in money being "moved around." Note: this money isn't moving anywhere, there's not even $2 trillion in circulation around the globe. It's all accounting stuff. "I pay you X on Y date."

It said how Tsar'ev was beaten and harrassed, so he exited the race. He was beaten by nationalists, RT said.

What it didn't say was that he was chased and beaten by pro-Russian nationalists a few times (a couple of times he escaped) because he wanted federalization for the East instead of independence.

So the dreaded nationalists that RT was speaking of--knowing that everybody would assume "Right Sector" and Ukrainian fascists--were pro-Russians.

Tsar'ev had little chance in most other areas. The East would have been his power base, like it was Yanukovich's. As it is he's pissed off some of the DPR and LPR folk with his stunt of having the reps from the two sides (plus Odessa, Zaporozhets, and a few other towns) meet up yesterday to sign an agreement declaring a union of the two "people's republics," "Novorossiya".

Some of the other candidates also dropped out. None of them were polling in the double digits, in a field of 40+ candidates. In fact, most of the remaining 20+ candidates failed--as simple math would indicate--to poll in the double digits.

The Communist Party is in a ticklish situation. It's power base is in the East and it's actively supported the DPR. It's strange to see adherents of Russian Orthodoxy waving Russian flags next to people waving Soviet flags. Then again, the natsbols are a strange mix that people 50 years ago would have sworn could never exist.

There were eggs thrown at him at one pro-russia rally (which is actually somewhat of a "tradition" there), but the beatings and threats came from Right sector and junta supporters. They tried to outlaw the party at one point. They are still trying to outlaw others.

Fortunately none of the leaders of the parties in power won. Imagine that. Even the west didn't want them. Boo hoo

Of course they will not respond like a couple of my other posts. They become very quiet when asked to comment on things like this story.

I am glad they are having a election just as promised by the interim government. Of course they will now have to come up with another excuse that it is not legitimate.

I hope many in the East find a way to vote for whoever they want without threat of being killed.

in the climate that was fostered.

However, no need to be too concerned. As long as the far right does not get back into power and the new president is interested in engaging the East it will take the wind out of the separatists sails. I think that in that case nobody will fight the results and just go with it in hopes that things will settle down.

I seem to recall them taking government buildings with guns and setting up checkpoints. Sort of like Crimea.

accidentally set fire to themselves? Sounds like the New York Post of Ukraine. A link to that non fact based story. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html

had already left the barn. Not only had it left the barn but it was halfway round the world when the slight change came. Reminiscent of a page 9 NY Times 4 day old correction. Now why would you want to defend that shoddy reporting on the deaths of so many innocent people?

It was still evolving during those few days.

I am sure you are one of the ones that says the Pro-Russian side never fired weapons from rooftops at unarmed marchers prior to the fire also.

Oops, trying to explain when caught red handed in a lie.

Enjoy your day.

They were not reporting it without attribution to those claiming it.

The Post is fairly accurate. They are independent and not state owned or controlled. So any attempt to put them up as the Ukrainian counterpart to RT would automatically fail.

Besides, is there anything in the story itself that I posted which is dubious? There is a presidential election going on today and that vote in east is being suppressed due to ongoing violence. That's pretty much straight forward.

Those people are obviously not being suppressed by their own troops. They are cheering for them in extremely large numbers and boycotting the vote. That is what happens when they have been called terrorists by their own supposed government and had their loved ones killed and their homes destroyed by nazi thugs. I thin k you have it ass backwards. The video doesn't lie.

The problem is assuming the photo is actually of the event. It's more often than not of the actual event. Lots of media sources, lots of events, not so many reporters on the ground. They reuse photos that are "illustrative."

It's not an uncommon complaint in the media comments there. Not a really common one, though, since the photos are there for stage dressing in most cases.

One difference between 5/11 and 5/25, though, is this: On 5/11 the claim was that the lines showed massive turnout. The reports I've read today for 5/25 are consistent--turnout is low in the East, and the long-line stories that *have* been accompanied by fresh pictures all attribute the long lines to a paucity of voting stations. The first is dishonest. The second completely honest. You have 4 polling places in a city with 250k voters and insanely long lines should still net you a low turnout.

Not because they don't want to, but because they'll be prevented from doing so.

The stances of the woman who is running (can't remember her name) worries me.

It wouldn't surprise me if they blew up a polling station in the East and blame it on the separatists in order to be able to punish the region further. That threat alone is enough to make people stay away from the polls.

Judging from what I'm reading that whole region has been busy this weekend signing the new constitution of Novorussia with delegates from all the regions as far South as Odessa and as far north as Karkhov. Looks like Joe Bidens son may not get the job afterall.

http://rt.com/news/161304-donetsk-lugansk-unite-state/

this weekend. The only thing I've been able to find on all the US and British mainstream news sites is lavish praise for the already chosen "Chocolate king". There is barely any reporting on the deaths of the Italian journalist and translator. So I guess RT will have to do.

Many in the US are still ignorant that the story is not quite as it has been told to them, but the same is not the case in the EU and the rest of the world.
By the way, if you have footage of someone on the roof shooting put it up, because I have seen a lot of the footage and have yet to see that. There is footage of someone shooting from the second floor during the earlier skirmish in the center of Odessa which is likely what gets confused.

On the other hand there was plenty of footage showing petrol bombs being thrown and fires started by the Ultras (Right Sector and football "hooligans&quot . There are videos that show people shooting at those trying to get out windows, and ultras maintaining the perimeter and trying to beat people when the police were trying to escort some out.

The events went over a fairly decent period of time. It was not just rash emotions, it was clearly a premeditated will to see a mass of those they considered their enemies die.

It is not really controversial for there to be an investigation, and even if there was a skirmish all the people that contributed would have gone to jail in the US, regardless if it was considered "revenge" or not.

Ukraine let the chief of police, seen multiple times huddling with the small group that did the firing in the center, who were oddly separate from the protesters until the event happened. The Chief of police was allowed to leave Odessa.

I mean come on, people should really use more critical thinking. This isn't a baseball game.

Why is this, which could clearly have been a HUGE news story for the western press (which normally loves to spend days overanalyzing) not getting coverage? The press reporting was shallow and hardly a followup has occurred. That is unusual even for our press.

Last edited Sun May 25, 2014, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

I know the Western version doesn't fit the videos I've seen. It's amazing more people haven't realized it. Maybe it's willful ignorance on their part due to nationalism of some sort. Kind of gives one an idea of how the nazi's of the 1930's pulled it off over the German people.

As far as RT goes, I do see a lot of criticism of it here at this website but their ability to use video and prove their points versus CNN or any other US outlet is much better. Plus their worldwide viewing audience is larger than CNN among young people from what I've seen. Probably because of their social media style approach with video to back up their stories. The US "news" outlets seem to all push the same version and even use the same words which to me implies some type of across the board coordination. Notice the "Chocolate King" is already declared president of Ukraine without the election even haven taking place on Thursday and Friday? Reminds me of how Bush stole the election in 2000.

Also I noticed all western media outlets cut and parsed Putins words about recognizing the outcome of the "election". He actually said some harsh tongue in cheek criticism that the audience liked and laughed at. The media led by Reuters and AP ignored the rest of his remarks. I wish I could find it in English because it is scathing. Putin is actually quite funny there. My wife who is Russian laughed out loud and said Russians will like Putin even more after that speech. I think our press is more corrupt than Russia's at this point so RT is fine by me. Have a nice day and thanks for your advice but I think free speech means we should be able to cite any mainstream worldwide news source. Plus isn't the BBC also a government run organization as is some US based news like C-Span?

I knew that they were biased but many in the world learned from this, including me.

I knew that there were shenanigans occurring in other "revolutions", but this makes me wonder how much engineering and false reporting has happened in places like Syria as well.

What it shows is that the Ukrainian government can't control part of its own territory. Or perhaps, chooses not to.

another election should happen in a couple of years after (hopefully) things have calmed down.

Their parliamentary elections are 2017.

and held a tribute for the soldiers that had died defending their cities from Right Sector "National Guard" troops. You do realize Right Sector is pro nazi right? And they make up a percentage of the new Ukrainian coup imposed government? They are still highly active in Maidan square in Kiev.

Here's a video of a regular Ukrainian soldier stating that Right Sector opened fire on regular Ukranian troops last week. Troops that refused to shoot mortars at civilian areas. Of course the Western media reported it differently but the helicopter video's made the mainstream Western media story suspect from the beginning as it didn't fit the use of Kiev based helicopters shelling the area. The Donetsk separatist fighters have no helicopters. Now more info is coming out.

If you're not a local--and in some cases, even if you are--you're assumed to be Right Sector. There are hordes and hordes of Right Sector fascists barrelling down on them to through their babies out of their incubators, it seems.

People--some people--are honestly scared. It helps that most of the non-Russian channels, esp. Russia-24, have been turned off.

It's rather like living in Atlanta in the 1930s and told that a huge black mob is heading your way to rape your women and kids, with channel WKKK having breathlessly interviews somebody who swears that her sister heard from a friend that some black man threatened her cousin's sister's aunt. Heads bob up and down in anxious gullibility as they all grab their guns to protect what's theirs.

The majority who don't fall for the "nationalist" propaganda don't dare speak up. So in a poll most people in Lugandon (which is how some are referring to Lugansk-Donetsk) said they wouldn't vote, but when asked why only 7-8% said they didn't think they were part of Ukraine any more. About equal amounts said they were afraid to vote or didn't think there was a decent candidate, and about equal amounts (7-8%) said they either didn't think they lived in Ukraine or they had family business that was more important. About 25% wanted to vote--including many who voted for increased "autonomy".

you should feel shame. Ukrainians are much more intelligent than you give them credit for. They were not simply buying Russian press. They are very astute and have very strong social networks on the internet. Of course they also know first hand what they themselves have seen and experienced.

If they allowed the vote rather than killing people it would have been much different.

Apparently, a few dozen (hundred?) guys with guns can take over a good chunk of a country, and the central government is effectively helpless.

What happened to the local security forces? I guess they either melted away or joined the rebels.

What happened to the Ukrainian military? Yeah, they are restrained by Vlad the Bad staring back at them, but even when they've attempted to do something, they've been pretty feckless.

The separatists appear to represent a mass movement without a mass. Their power would appear to be hollow. Yet, there they are.

Hell, when they ambushed those checkpoints rather than Ukraine guys standing their ground they fled. Probably cost some guys left behind their life.

There are also a lot of opportunists, stealing phones, cars (they have been caught on video), forcing people to pay DNR "security fees." The people deal with it but I think it demoralizes them, so they don't do any mass protest.

I think the pro Russia guys have nothing to lose on one hand (poor people, drug users, alcoholics, etc), and on the other they have war trained guys like the cossacks. That gives them the psychological advantage.

Sure, they got lots of support on the maidan, but that was not representative of the average Ukrainian. Despite how the media has spun everything, the folks in maidan had a LOT of unusually hateful bigots. Like our tea party. In general people there had hardly paid any attention to the (actually minor for most) differences between their orientations.

When the junta tried to use the army and police to put down the protesters and separatists the trouble was that much of the army and police were for people, and not for a regime that obviously seemed extremist and had been given support by outside or wealthy sources. So they refused to follow orders, or even left the service.

It seems so doggone obvious that it blows me away that people cannot see that the government has not been popular or wanted. Just because the media can find large groups of people in a country of around 50 million? The press made the tea party look like a representative movement as well. But we all understand it was not??? Maidan, to a significant part, was made up of a lot of further right tea party types. Those of us who have been watching this from the Orange Revolution" know that hate speech has been regular part of leaders of many of these parties.

They tried for a week to get the cities under control, lost about 40-50 people.