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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:07 PM Jun 2014

Putin on Clinton: ‘It’s Better Not to Argue With Women’

Source: TIME

Dan Kedmey, 5:00 PM ET

Maybe weakness is not the worst quality for a woman," Putin said

Russian President Vladimir Putin offered some decidedly 19th-century reasons for avoiding a debate with Hillary Clinton.

“It’s better not to argue with women,” he said in an interview with Radio Europe 1 transcribed and posted to the Russian President’s official website on Wednesday.

Putin was asked how he might respond to Clinton’s recent comments comparing Russia’s intervention in Ukraine to Adolf Hitler’s invasion of Europe. Clinton has since walked back the statement.

“When people push boundaries too far, it’s not because they are strong but because they are weak,” Putin said, “but maybe weakness is not the worst quality for a woman.”

Read more: http://time.com/2823238/vladimir-putin-hillary-clinton/



Putin: Hillary Clinton Has 'Never Been Too Graceful' in Statements

By Andrew Rafferty

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday said Hillary Clinton’s recent comments comparing his actions to those of Adolf Hitler are a sign of weakness, saying she “has never been too graceful” in her public statements.

MORE...

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/putin-hillary-clinton-has-never-been-too-graceful-statements-n122776

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Putin on Clinton: ‘It’s Better Not to Argue With Women’ (Original Post) Purveyor Jun 2014 OP
20th century man strikes again BeyondGeography Jun 2014 #1
Putin kardonb Jun 2014 #20
oh boy, you nailed it, ON THE HEAD! AngryAmish Jun 2014 #25
I'm convinced he will announce his campaign for the repuke nomination any day now. KamaAina Jun 2014 #2
Apparently the time order was Brzezinski, H. Clinton, McCain and Rubio jakeXT Jun 2014 #3
It really marks them as morons in my mind when they do that. bemildred Jun 2014 #5
I get what you're saying and I haven't followed the story closely enough to be an authority... antigone382 Jun 2014 #6
It is plenty possible to criticize Putin without resorting to hyperbole. bemildred Jun 2014 #7
But but but iandhr Jun 2014 #4
Like the Ukraine boundries Politicalboi Jun 2014 #8
Putin sounds like a Republican. Beacool Jun 2014 #9
he should sound like a republican, the same billionaires that own the GOP politicans own Putin. olddad56 Jun 2014 #11
Putin is probably one of the richest in the world psychopomp Jun 2014 #17
what do you think his relationship with the Kock Brothers are? olddad56 Jun 2014 #29
Yep, probably so davidpdx Jun 2014 #30
Every time I hear a comment about Women in Government I like quoting Bismark in 1870. happyslug Jun 2014 #10
I like Eugenie. Beacool Jun 2014 #14
Eugenie would put up with "Crap" when she had to. happyslug Jun 2014 #23
Eugenie nerd-dom. kwassa Jun 2014 #24
Thank you. Beacool Jun 2014 #32
Putin does not have to go back that far, Elizabeth and her Daughter in Law Catherine the Great. happyslug Jun 2014 #28
Thank you for the information. Beacool Jun 2014 #31
Then there is the story of Charlemagne's Daughter. happyslug Jun 2014 #33
that's a sure sign of a man who is afraid of women Skittles Jun 2014 #12
that was my first thought, that he didn'tw ant to have to deal with her as President olddad56 Jun 2014 #16
Its like sandwind jamzrockz Jun 2014 #13
Sandwind is....gone with the wind.... Tanuki Jun 2014 #38
Something tells me Vlad does not have a lot of respect for Blacks either. Sounds like a republican. pampango Jun 2014 #15
I don't think he has a lot of respect for humans in general. olddad56 Jun 2014 #18
Its better not to argue with a woman who is WAY SMARTER THAN YOU undeterred Jun 2014 #19
well, what about Hillary, then? MisterP Jun 2014 #27
OK. That's it! Gloves Off. Hillary has to run...just to put this jerk in his place. kelliekat44 Jun 2014 #21
Soviet Union 2.0 needs to be reshut behind Iron Curtain 2.0. onehandle Jun 2014 #22
that's pretty rich, coming from the man who declared redruddyred Jun 2014 #26
Crimea projection, anyone?“When people push boundaries too far, it’s not because they are strong..." uhnope Jun 2014 #34
EXACTLY. n/t. MBS Jun 2014 #37
Did one of Hillary's people put him up to this? Rstrstx Jun 2014 #35
Classic. MBS Jun 2014 #36
 

kardonb

(777 posts)
20. Putin
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jun 2014

just like the repukes , he is scared sh-tless of Hillary . He knows she is one tough , smart LADY !

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
3. Apparently the time order was Brzezinski, H. Clinton, McCain and Rubio
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:15 PM
Jun 2014
Interestingly enough, it was Brzezinski who first compared Putin to Hitler in a March 3 Washington Post Editorial. Hillary Clinton followed-up the next day with her comments comparing the two, followed by John McCain and Marco Rubio who on March 5 agreed with Clinton’s comments comparing Putin and Hitler. Apparently Brzezinski still continues to influence US political speak.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37954.htm


And he started early in 08

Obama adviser compares Putin to Hitler

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/12/georgia

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. It really marks them as morons in my mind when they do that.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:19 PM
Jun 2014

It's like words have no meaning, they are just shit you throw at your enemies. Godwin knew what he was talking about.

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
6. I get what you're saying and I haven't followed the story closely enough to be an authority...
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:41 PM
Jun 2014

...But in this case, I recall that Polish officials were also comparing Putin's actions in the Ukraine to some of the initial military actions of the Nazis. I get Godwin's law and all, but I feel like when Poland compares your actions to the Nazis, I tend to take that a little more seriously. To my mind, the country that probably suffered more horrific damage than any other during WWII has a bit more of a right to make comparisons than your average self-serving American politician.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
7. It is plenty possible to criticize Putin without resorting to hyperbole.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:47 PM
Jun 2014

He is bad enough as he stands, there is no need to discredit your argument by comparing him to Hitler, he is not even close. His little war in Chechnya was a nasty business, with nasty consequences, but it was not WWII.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
8. Like the Ukraine boundries
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 06:58 PM
Jun 2014

“When people push boundaries too far, it’s not because they are strong but because they are weak,” Putin said,

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
11. he should sound like a republican, the same billionaires that own the GOP politicans own Putin.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 08:28 PM
Jun 2014

I'd be surprised if Ted Cruz doesn't choose Putin for his running mate.

psychopomp

(4,668 posts)
17. Putin is probably one of the richest in the world
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 08:46 PM
Jun 2014

His net worth is estimated to be 70 billion. He puts other billionaires in prison and kills political enemies. How is he beholden to anyone??

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
29. what do you think his relationship with the Kock Brothers are?
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 12:46 AM
Jun 2014

do you not think that they have common goals? Maybe you are correct, maybe rather be owned by the billionaires, he is part of the group.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
10. Every time I hear a comment about Women in Government I like quoting Bismark in 1870.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 07:57 PM
Jun 2014

Bismark was about to start the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, but he was afraid of only one person in the Government of France, the wife of Emperor Napoleon III. Bismark called her "The only man in the French Government". This was to imply that the members of Napoleon III's government would not have the internal strength to back down when that is called for and when popular support does NOT support backing down.

Empress Eugénie was long known to have that internal strength, it is the main reason Napoleon III ended up marrying her, she refused to become his mistress and he needed an Empress after he became Emperor in 1852.

The Empress Eugénie was the only person Bismark feared in the French Government. She had the will to upset his plans, no one else did. Empress Eugénie had the inner strength to said do NOT go to war when everyone is calling for it. That was the Situation in 1870 after Bismark released his edited version of Napoleon III's demand for his agreement to the unification of Germany. Rather then just saying it was edited to make it insulting, the French declare war, a war France was NOT ready for but Germany was.

More on the Empress Eugénie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Empress_Eug%C3%A9nie

Empress Eugénie is also noted for wearing one of the first dress (gown would be a better term) dyed with artificial dyes.

More on her dress:

http://www.cairn.info/zen.php?ID_ARTICLE=NAPO_112_0183

http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2013/04/down-with-spaniard-to-guillotine.html

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
14. I like Eugenie.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 08:36 PM
Jun 2014

Putin should also read about the two most powerful women of the 16th century. One can call Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici many things, "weak" is not one of them. They would have had this misogynist's head torn off with one flick of their hand. These ladies were BOSS and so is Hillary. As a tough chick myself, I love other tough women who take no crap from anyone.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. Eugenie would put up with "Crap" when she had to.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jun 2014

But the real test of any leader is knowing when to call it quits. I do not like Reagan, but he showed good leadership when he pulled US troops out of Lebanon after the suicide bombing of the Marine Barracks. The reason the Marines were in Beirut in the first place was do to Reagan's stupid action in putting them there (complicated by some local commanders decision to put all of his men in one building, which violates ALL of the rules of placement of men in a Combat Zone, dispersed till needed is the rule). Reagan could have fallen into the trap of demanding revenge for those dean Marines, but he avoided that debacle and took the heat to pull the Marines out.

Eugenie put up with a lot of Crap from her Husband, but she also told him things he did not what to hear.

Through Napoleon III's comment on his Government, (Paraphrased, Napoleon III used actual names) "One leader is a closet Republican, the Empress is a Royalist and I am a Socialist". That was NOT meant as a complement to the Closet Republican for that would be someone who supported the Upper Middle Class of France to rule France and ignore the poor. The Empress was a Royalist in that she believed in Rule by a Strong leader, but that leader had to take care of everyone in his Kingdom, including the poor. Napoleon III called himself a Socialist for he wanted to screw the Upper Middle Class but just could not bring himself up to do it for much of his power came from their support for him as Emperor.

People compare Eugene's escape from Paris in 1871 and Louis XVI attempted escape in 1792. Eugenie left with nothing but the clothing on her back in a light fast carriage and made it to England. Louis XVI had left in a heavy couch filled with all the accouterments of kingship. That slowed him down and permitted him to be captured and returned to Paris and his trial and execution. Given that her husband was a prisoner of the Germans, that made her fast move all the more remarkable.

Now, you have to also understand that the rural areas of France had deep support for the Napoleonic dynasty, for many peasants in Rural France could trace their ownership of their land to Napoleon I. While the law making such land transfers the law during the First Republic, most such land grants were NOT issued till Napoleon was Emperor. i.e. it was a dead letter law on the books till Napoleon I used it to get support from Rural France. This transfer of land provided a huge support for Napoleon III and other members of the Bonaparte family and thus outside of Paris Eugenie was more or less safe (She had to avoid areas that supported the opposition, for example Aquitaine which tended to support the Conservative Republicans and the Rhone Valley which tended to be pro-House of Bourbon (During the years prior to the Revolution, do to how the Bourbons ruled France after Louis XIV, this area had been lightly taxed and thus remember that and was the most loyal to the House of Bourbon). These trends survived till the urbanization of the late 1800s and early 1900s transformed France into a modern urban State as opposed to a mainly agricultural state, through aspects of this historical difference between the regions did have some echos in the actions of the French Underground during WWII).

Just some comments on Empress Eugenie.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
32. Thank you.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 12:06 PM
Jun 2014

Empress Eugenie was an interesting person who had a tragic life. More than losing her throne, her biggest pain was losing her son in the Anglo-Zulu war.



 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
28. Putin does not have to go back that far, Elizabeth and her Daughter in Law Catherine the Great.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 12:14 AM
Jun 2014

Russia after the death of Peter The Great ended up in the hands of FOUR strong women. First was his second wife Catherine I who ruled for two years after the death of Peter the Great. She ruled from 1725-1727

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_I_of_Russia

The Daughter of Peter the Great and Catherine I, Elizabeth was only 16 at the time of her Mother's death and thus saw herself as to young to be Empress, thus after Catherine I's death she was succeeded by the eldest son of the son of Peter the Great from his first wife. This was Peter II who only ruled three years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_II_of_Russia

Peter II was succeeded by Anna, the daughter of Ivan V, the half brother of Peter the Great who had technically ruled with Peter the Great till his death. While Ivan had been viewed as senile as age 27, his daughter was considered competent to hold power and did for ten years. She is often ignored for it was a tough ten years, 1730-1740, and that she preferred Germans to Russians (but also tried to expand Russia, but had to agree to some terms with Persia succeeding to Persia lands taken by Peter the Great).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_of_Russia

Anna adopted Ivan VI as her successor just before she died. Ivan VI was only one year old on Anna's death and his rule was probably an attempt by Anna's long time lover to retain control over the Russian Government (or gain control, Anna refuse to marry her lover, for she liked the power of being Emperor).

At this point Catherine I's daughter lead a coup and took over the Government making herself Empress Elizabeth. She had Ivan VI put into prison for the rest of her reign for he had a good claim to the throne, through either through his genes or his treatment (or both) the reports we have of him is increasing mental instability. He died during an attempted coup against Catherine II, his guards under orders from Catherine II, killed him if any attempt was made to free him. It is interesting that Elizabeth and Catherine did not have him killed outright, and Catherine in her later years left his brothers and sisters move to Denmark where they were kept in a Palace they could not leave and paid for by Catherine II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Russia

Thus in 1741 and ruled till 1762. Elizabeth as the only surviving child of Catherine I and Peter the Great became Empress herself. Unlike Anna, Elizabeth preferred Russia advisers and ministers. She replaced the Cabinet System of Anna with a Senate, as Peter the Great had had. She adopted a Russian-Anglo-Austrian system of understanding (i.e. not an alliance per se, but if one was at war the others would support the one at war). This lasted till the Activities of Frederick the Great of Prussia became to much for her and she allied with Austria and France to destroy Frederick. This is the Seven Years war, she did drive Frederick from Berlin, but ended up dying at that time being replaced by her heir, Peter III, who ruled six months and replaced by his wife, a wife picked by Elizabeth, Princess Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst. On her Marriage she had to convert to Orthodoxy and adopt a more Russian Time Katrina (A name by long tradition is translated into English as Catherine the Great, 1741-1796).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_the_Great#Issue

Thus from 1725 to 1796, Males ruled Russia a total of six tears and women ruled 65 years. None of these four women were considered weak, thus Catherine I ruled for two years, Anna ruled for 10 years, Elizabeth for 21 years and Catherine II for 55 years. It was Catherine the Great that took Crimea from Turkey, took over most of Poland, and even started to take over what is now called the Former Central Asiatic Soviet States. She even had people going to Alaska.

Now Catherine the Great's son Paul, when he became Emperor made it the rule that women could not be Emperor (that had always been the law in Russia, but ignored when the Russians wanted a woman to rule, you can do that when you have total power to make the law). Paul ruled six years. He stopped Catherine's war with Persia, but did fight the French in the days just before Napoleon, driving the French out of Italy and even sending Russian Troops to the Netherlands in British war ships. On the other hand many Russians view him as to much like his Father and Anna, to pro German for their taste. An example of this was he replaced the Russian Uniform based on Russian Traditional clothing, that had been adopted by Catherine the Great, by a more Prussia style uniform. He replaced many of Catherine Generals (and then had to back track when the replacements were not as good). He was finally killed in 1801, after five years of rule, by people who wanted his son to rule.

One last woman, this time a Prussian. Louise of Prussia, the wife of the King of Prussia during the Napoleonic wars. She was educated to be a good wife and mother and that is it. She was then married off to the heir of the Prussian Throne and thrown into what many considered the most intellectual challenging court of Europe. She was lost. She broke down one time to one of the older women in waiting that she was losing her husband for she was to stupid to understand the debates he was participating with, not only with the men of his court but the Women. The old lady in waiting told her she was NOT dumb, uneducated which can be changed. The Lady in Waiting told her it was obvious she was intelligent for she was seeing her husband slip away from her and wanted to undo it. The Lady in Waiting suggested some books for her to read and discuss with her and Queen Louise quickly learned to discuss matters of State with her husband and why, the progressive factors in the Prussian Army should be supported, even when they say change what Frederick the Great had done just 30 years before. She joined that wing. She visited all of Prussia and helped push for what we now call High School for all Children and pointed out if the people does not support the Government, the Government has no real claim to rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz

Her support for the progressive movements in Prussia was important, it permitted her husband to make the needed changes. She was also a frail thing and took the defeat at Jena in 1806 hard, but it was the catalyst to reform not only the Prussian Army but the whole Prussian State. Out of this reform was the chief characteristic of Prussia after the Napoleonic Wars and Germany till recently, the people, the State and the Army became one and the same (The German Army has recently gone all Volunteer, for the first time since 1806, except for the time period after WWI imposed by the Allies under the Treaty of Versailles, which was ignored in many ways by Germany during that period).

One of the aspects of the reform that traditionalist opposed was getting rid of the "Queue". The "Queue"was a pony tail worn by men that had a long history in Prussia, it was what the enlisted men had to wear to show they were members of the Army. It separated them from the rest of the population and had been adopted as a quick way to catch deserters. It was disliked by the enlisted ranks but they had to wear it. The reformers wanted to get rid of it, the conservatives wanted to retain it. The King of Prussia finally agreed to abolish it as part of the Prussian Plan to turn all of its men into part time soldiers, soldiers that could be called out when needed. This lead to the old joke about Prussia and later German. Every man was in the Army, in between 11 months of leave.

To achieve that level of reserves and retain support from the peasants, the "Queue" had to go and thus was fought by the Conservatives who opposed the other parts of the plan, including mandatory and free High School. When it was finally possible to eliminate the "Queue", her husband Frederick William III sent the first one cut to her on her death bed, to show that he was serious about the reforms. Her two eldest sons would succeed her husband as Kings of Prussia. The later one would become Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queue_(hairstyle)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jena%E2%80%93Auerstedt

One of the reasons Eastern Europeans are more tolerate of female rulers is that Slavic Culture still retains portions of its pagan past and among the Slavs, the Chief God was NOT a man but the Female God of the earth. Thus when Christianity was adopted, Mary replaced her and ended up with much of the goddess's former "power". This was seen in the 2008 primary election in Western Pennsylvania. The local Ethnics, many with Slavic background thought nothing of supporting a woman to be President. Thus Hillary won Western Pennsylvania big time.

Not that this has been just a Eastern European case. I love the Story of KING Isabella of Christopher Columbus fame. Yes, I use the term king for she always referred to herself as REX, Latin for King, not Regina, Latin for Queen. Worse, her husband is mentioned by Machiavelli as being a strong leader you could not trust, but he always agreed to do what Isabella wanted. Thus it was Isabella who gave the money to Columbus NOT her husband. Worse, in various buildings built by Isabella and Ferdinand, they are marked built by Rex, Isabella and Rex Ferdinand (Yes her name is first for she was Rex of Castile, he was only Rex of Aragon a much smaller kingdom within modern Spain). She gets a bad rap for she did start the Inquisition, but had also left Moslem remain in her kingdom. Ferdinand and Isabella did sign the expulsion order for all non-converted jews to leave Spain, it is a dark side of her rule, but like most great leaders she had her dark side if you look at her from modern eyes.

More on Isabella of Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
31. Thank you for the information.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 11:46 AM
Jun 2014

I love history. I've read plenty on Isabella and have been to her tomb in Granada. The Russian tsarinas are quite remarkable too.

The queen that I've been reading about a lot now is Catherine de Medici. She got a bum rap in her time and the way she was treated reminds me a lot of the vile things said about Hillary.

Catherine was born in Florence, the place that gave birth to the Renaissance. She became an orphan within days of being born. She was the sole heir to the vast Medici fortune (they were the bankers of the royal houses of Europe). When she was 8 years old rebels stormed the Medici palace and took the Duchessina (little duchess) hostage. She was kept hostage in a convent for years. Her uncle, Pope Clement, and his army were finally able to take back the city. Clement arranged for Catherine to be wed to Henry, the second son of the king of France, Francis I. They were both only 14 years old. Catherine fell in love with the prince. A love that was not reciprocated. Henry's father had passed on to Henry his former mistress, Diane de Poitiers. Diane was 20 years older than Henry. At first she was a surrogate mother to him. The relationship didn't become sexual until he was 16 years old. Henry doted on Diane until his death. He mostly ignored Catherine, although at Diane's urging, he visited her bed to produce a Valois heir. Catherine did not get pregnant for 10 years and was in constant fear of being sent back to Florence in disgrace. Luckily, king Francis liked her and protected her. The couple eventually had 10 children.

When Henry's older brother died at 18, he became the Dauphin. Catherine didn't have much power during Henry's reign, but upon his death at 40 in a jousting accident, their son Francis(who had married Mary Stuart) became king. Since he was still a teenager Catherine and Mary's uncles (the powerful de Guise brothers) helped to rule France. Francis died 18 months after his father and his young brother Charles became king. Catherine became Regent of France and the Medici era started in full force.

Catherine was a true Renaissance queen. Many of the cultural refinements that France is now known for were brought to the country by Catherine and the Italians she brought along with her. She introduced to the court the fork, ice cream, high heels, many food items that were unknown to the French, perfumes, the side saddle (which she helped to design herself) and many other innovations. Like the rest of the Medici family, she was a big supporter of the arts. Ballet as an art form was created during her time, so were the beginnings of what later on would become operas. She built palaces, gardens and made improvements to the overall infrastructure of the country.

Her greatest misfortune as a ruler was having to reign during the years of the wars of religion. For many years she tried to unite both sides with mixed success, until out of frustration, she ordered the killing of the leaders of the Huguenots. They had assembled in Paris for the marriage of her daughter Margo to the Protestant Henry of Navarre. The attacks prompted massive riots that culminated days later with the deaths of thousands of people. Neither Catherine nor the army could contain the killings.

She was reviled in her era for being a foreigner, not of French royal blood (although she was the daughter of a French countess who was King Francis' cousin and an Italian duke). She was also a woman in a very sexist society. She was a good queen that could have been a great one if she had been given the chance. The religious wars took most of her energy, as neither side was willing to compromise.

Catherine was the subject of a relentless campaign against her, pamphlets were published accusing her of all sorts of vile things. She was called "Madame Serpent", the "Italian Merchant Woman", a moniker given by Mary Stuart, the "Reine Noir" (she wore black for the rest of her life in honor of her beloved Henry) and other similar names. Despite being reviled by the French, Catherine was one of their most important queens. Her time is known as the Medici era in French history books. She was one of the two most powerful women of the 16th century (Elizabeth I being the other one).



Notice the strand of large pearls around her waist. They were the famous Medici pearls. When her son married Mary Stuart, Catherine gifted the pearls to Mary. When Mary became a prisoner of the English, Elizabeth took the pearls away from her. Some of those pearls were incorporated to the British crown jewels.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
33. Then there is the story of Charlemagne's Daughter.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 12:33 PM
Jun 2014

Charlemagne's daughter had been seeing the top minister of Charlemagne. One night as he left her house within Charlemagne's Palace. it had snowed and she told him she was NOT going permit him to leave his footprints in the snow going from her apartment. Instead she told him to get on her back and she would carry him, thus leaving only her footprints going to and from her door.

In those days such trips were common, for the restroom tended to be in the garden kept in the middle of such complexes (People still had to go to the restroom even then). Since indoor plumbing tended to be rare at that time period (The true toilet not invented till the late 1800s), the placement of such outhouses were one of the requirement in the design of every building. Often they were in the common area surrounded by flowers and other garden trees to cove up the smell.

Anyway, Charlemagne saw his daughter carrying his minister. The next day, as he was holding open court he asked his minister in open court, What should he, Charlemagne, do to a man who treats the Emperor's daughter as a mule? The Minister just stood they scared for his life for he quickly determined WHO Charlemage was talking about. From the stories the tension was tense, the Minister did not know what to say. If he said execute the person, he may be signing his own death warrant. If he said the Emperor should overlook or forgive that act, he would be admitting he was the person who did it.

The daughter was also upset, this was NOT what she wanted. Charlemagne then mentioned that he thought such a man should marry the Emperor's daughter, showing he had no objection to such a marriage. Since this was in Arden which is now in Germany, Roman law did not apply. Charlemagne lived in the days BEFORE the Catholic Church made Marriage a Sacrament, thus only traditional German law applied. Thus you read reports that none of Charlemagne's daughter ever wed, which was true in the sense he never married them off in some sort of ceremony showing the marriage. Apparently most went off in some sort of "hand given" where a woman agreed to be the wife of a man, and he agreed to treat her as his wife (What in the US we call "Common Law Marriage&quot . Such marriages were never recorded so we have no record of them. Thus it appears Charlemagne's Daughters did marry, but not for interest of State and under then existing Germanic Law not Roman Law.

I bring it up to show how a strong woman could act even in an era dominated by men.

As to get nearer the Mediterranean you get less cases of strong women. Not because Strong Women did not exist, but Roman, Greek and Semitic Law were male dominated and male geared (Of these three the Roman Law was the most pro-woman, it permitted a woman to retain her property if she slept in a different bed from her husband at least three days a year. On the other hand who she married was up to the eldest male in her family. Please note the eldest male in the Roman Family had the same right to determine marriage of the younger males in the family. The main difference was when the eldest male died. Each of his sons then became the eldest male of their own families. With their mother and sisters coming under the control of the eldest son and his family. Greek law was so bad when it came to Women, that the Greeks adopted Roman Law. Semitic law still survives as Sharia Law.

This comes up with the story of what most historians (and some of her contemporaries) said about the eldest daughter of Theodosius the Great. The only Roman Emperor given that title in ancient times (Constantine is sometime referred as Constantine the Great but that is a modern invention). In the 379 AD the Roman Army was destroyed by the Goths in the Battle of Adrianople. This is considered the second greatest defeat of any Roman Army, the Roman Army is estimated to have lost over 40,000 men in the battle. This makes Adrianople second only to Cannae where Hannibal destroyed a 60,000 man Roman Army.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/adrianople.html

Now the Roman Empire of 379 AD was NOT the Roman Republic of 216 BC. The Roman Army of 379 had been mercenary army since 109 BC (Rome switched to a Mercenary Army for the Roman Peasants stop showing up for wars that only benefited the wealthy of Rome). In 216 BC the Roman Army was a Militia of all Roman Citizens and thus the 60,000 men could be replaced. In 379 the Roman Peasants had little use for the Roman State and would as gladly join the Goths as any Roman army. Thus the ability to quickly raise an army to replaced the one destroyed was NOT an option for the Roman Empire of 379 AD.

After that Battle, Theodosius ended up a the Western Roman Emperor and had the duty to stop the rampaging of the Goths with what troops he could raise. Paying for the troops was a big issue, but he solved that issue by further embracing Christianity and ordered the closing of Pagan Temples (and taking the gold in the temples to pay the troops). It is noted if a Pagan Temple had no gold or silver, it survived another 200 years. The Emperor wanted everyone to be a Christian, but he would only destroy temples if he could profit from it and given the Gothic situation he needed the money.

Now Theodosius ended up defeating the Goths, but not in one big battle, but it several little battles where in contained them and forced them to accept what he was offering is settlement. This is one of the reasons he was called the Great, he did not need to win big victories to secure the Roman State.

After the Goths were contained, Theodosius embraced what we now call Christianity and rejected not only Paganism but also Arianism (Which survived another 100 years for it was a huge force within the Roman Army and appears to have remain so till after the fall of the Western Roman Empire). At his death he was succeed by his son, Theodosius II, whose first years of rule was under the influence of his older sister, Pulcheria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulcheria

Pulcheria was a strong woman with a good concept of what she was ruling and how to rule (unlike her Brother who never did fully understand how to rule). For the first years of her brother's rule she made the decision, including picking his wife. Aelia Eudocia

The story of how Aelia Eudocia became the Christian Wife of Theodosius II is interesting. Aelia Eudocia had been raised a pagan by her father a pagan Philosopher in Athens. At his death, he had left all by 100 coins to his sons. Aelia Eudocia was given the 100 coins. She objected but her brothers said no. She then went to Constantinople to plead with the Emperor about this unfair transaction. Theodosius II had always left such requests to his sister to handle. Thus Aelia Eudocia presented her case to Pulcheria. On hearing of her story and seeing her in person, Pulcheria left and went to her brother and from behind a curtain showed Theodosius II, Aelia Eudocia and asked if she was an acceptable wife and he said yes. Pulcheria then told Aelia Eudocia that the Emperor could do nothing about the Inheritance but if she agreed, he would take her as his wife on the condition she converts to Christianity. Aelia Eudocia accepted the terms.

One of the reasons Constantine adopted Christianity was the Christians had a way to get messages to other Christians, which was reading messages out in mass. This was a way to get a message to the people, something pagan Rome never had the capacity for (Pagan temples were not places for everyone to meet, but places to go to offer individual sacrifices to the gods, thus a lousy communication system). Anyway, the marriage was announced to the Bishops who sent it to the parish Priests, who announced it during mass. Aelia Eudocia's brothers were still pagan and thus miss the messages, but was told of the "bad news" by someone shortly there after and caught the first boat East so they could go into exile in Persia. Aelia Eudocia sent a message to them that caught up with them in Antioch, that she had forgiven them for their greed and all was forgotten. She then proceeded to assist them in their lives.

http://www.luc.edu/roman-emperors/eudocia.htm#N_1_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Eudocia

Now Pulcheria was called Augusta even after Aelia Eudocia's marriage and remain so till Aelia Eudocia gave birth to her first child, when Aelia Eudocia was declared Augusta (Female Augustus or Empress).

Some historians mention these two women in constant fighting, then give no details, for it appears they did have conflicts over things inside the court, but never over anything of importance to either of them. The best example is the Roman Persian War of 421 AD. In that War, a Christian Bishop destroyed a Zoroastrianic Temple. This was under Persian Rule and the ruling house of Persia was Zoroastrian. The Persian King then executed the Bishop who destroyed the temple, but then went one step further, he wiped out a Christian Village that was under his rule. Pulcheria supported a Military response, for none would have been called for if the King had stopped with the execution of the Bishop. The Persian's king's extension of that execution to the Christians in that area was an attack on Rome and its support for Christianity. Aelia Eudocia supported her sister in law when her husband did not want to go to war. The War was fought, it was inconclusive in the field, but it also sent a message to Persia, Rome would NOT tolerate attacks on innocent Christians. If a Christian did a crime, Rome would NOT object to that Christian being punished, but Rome would protect innocent Christians even in areas of Persian Rule.

As he aged Theodosius II came under the influence of others, and forced first his sister and then his wife out of Constantinople. He first accused his wife of having sex with one of his advisers, an adviser he had know since boyhood. Theodosius II had him executed and her exiled. Aelia Eudocia moved to Jerusalem and outlived both her husband and her sister in law but never returned to Constantinople (Through appears to have supported Pulchuria actions at the death of Theodosius II).

Upon the exile of Aelia Eudocia, Pulchuria then appears to have left Constantinople in disgust. Pulcheria would return at the death of Theodosius II to take over the Government at his death. She agreed to marry a general and technically he was Emperor, but till her own death just a couple of years later she ruled.

Two interesting Women, during a time period when the Western Roman Empire was falling apart, but the Eastern Empire stayed together. If they had more power then Theodosius II had, they may even have saved the Empire.

 

jamzrockz

(1,333 posts)
13. Its like sandwind
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 08:30 PM
Jun 2014

reborn a pro Kiev supporter instead of pro Syria rebel supporter. Btw, whatever happened to sandwind?

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
22. Soviet Union 2.0 needs to be reshut behind Iron Curtain 2.0.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jun 2014

Reagan failed when they were starving and did not demand they give up their nukes.

 

redruddyred

(1,615 posts)
26. that's pretty rich, coming from the man who declared
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jun 2014

that he would not discriminate against the gays at sochi, so long as they left the children in peace.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
34. Crimea projection, anyone?“When people push boundaries too far, it’s not because they are strong..."
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 01:01 PM
Jun 2014

"...but because they are weak,”

Rstrstx

(1,399 posts)
35. Did one of Hillary's people put him up to this?
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 01:57 PM
Jun 2014

Coming from one of the most beloved figures in the US that must be a crushing blow. This is Christmas in June for her, how many independent women voters will she win over because of this?

MBS

(9,688 posts)
36. Classic.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 02:50 PM
Jun 2014

Both in terms of Putin specifically (boy, a psychologist could have a field day here) and probably also, I 'm guessing, not out of line with the thinking of a lot of Russian males. I'm happy of course to be contradicted --and I'm sure that there must be enlightened Russian men out there, but.. I once told a Russian woman about a reprint of a questionnaire I'd seen, supposedly filled out by Karl Marx, in which he identified "weakness" as the quality he most admired in women. .. "a sign", I'd said in my most scholarly posture, "that Marx was obviously a product of the 19th century". You think anything has changed??" she said, the stridency of her voice reflecting decades of frustration. "As far as Russian men are concerned, the weaker the better." Cheers

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