The jobs crisis is sort of a strange thing because there are actually lots of jobs, but companies can't find qualified applicants. This may not be true in any part of the country but where I live it is. Also, other technical fields will often recruit internationally and bring them to the US. It just hasn't been necessary for programming because there isn't much in the way of equipment needed besides inexpensive PCs.

...yeah there is a real dearth of "qualified" applicants.

I have worked for lots of immigrants who are at the top of their fields. The jobs in my area are usually good jobs that pay well that are still not being filled.

That's exactly what's happening.

Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:44 AM - Edit history (2)

Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Job growth in the field is expected to be about 27,000 a year 2010-2020, but from 2006-2011 it was less than that -- about 8%.

http://www.economicmodeling.com/2011/08/19/the-it-tech-sectors-where-the-jobs-are/

"The job market for tech workers in San Jose, San Francisco, and other pockets of the country seems to be thriving. But there also appears to be a considerable excess of new graduates in these fields compared to the annual demand over the next five years. According to EMSI estimates, there are more than 3 times as many graduates as annual job openings through 2016."

You can see in their chart (bottom of page) that there's currently an excess of about 29,000 software engineers:

15-1032 Computer software engineers, systems software 13,664 42,621 28,957 $42.80


Also, supply and demand says that if there's a shortage of workers, wages should go up to attract more people. Contra to that, tech wages are flat -- and actually declining for new hires.

"For new grads, the compensation scale isn’t as promising as years before. For the second straight year, the average salaries of technology professionals with less than two years experience have declined, and are six percent below their peak average wages in 2008."

That's because of outsourcing. There is NO evidence whatsoever that there are shortages in software engineering particulary or tech generally. Stagnant and declining wages = OVERSUPPLY, and that is because the labor market has been opened up to low wage labor from outside the US.

The propaganda coming from the tech sector about the "higher quality" of graduates from india and china is just that: propaganda to justify their low wage strategy.

Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:52 AM - Edit history (1)

(Facts given here have been demonstrated incorrect through corrections by HiPointDem. I don't, however, take messages down if the facts are incorrect, I leave them up to inform people what I got wrong. I wish this board had a strike-thru feature, but I'll "excerpt" it. I apologize for my errors.)

someone mentioned it specifically.

In fact, there is no shortage of electrical engineers either. There are about 150K electrical engineers (excluding self-employed) in the US. Mean annual wage is about $90K, median annual wage about $85K, meaning half make $85K or less.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172071.htm

Demand for EE grads is projected to increase 6% (slower than average) 2010-20. The US is expected to add about 18K EE jobs over that period, or 1800 a year. Do you really think the US is incapable of supplying 1800 EEs a year?

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm

In 2009 the unemployment rate for EEs was at record levels:

"The news for EEs was particularly bad as the jobless rate more than doubled from 4.1 percent in the first quarter to a record-high 8.6 percent in the second. The previous quarterly record was 7 percent, in the first quarter of 2003."

Read more: http://tdworld.com/business/engineer-unemployment-rate-0709/#ixzz1qYTBh8dY

In 2010:

"Among electrical engineers, the unemployment rate dropped from 7.3% to 5.2% from the third to fourth quarter. Good news? Not necessarily, because the total pool of employed electrical engineers declined in that same period by 3%, from 331,000 to 321,000."

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9149278/Obama_s_jobs_push_arrives_as_engineers_leave_IT

Here (at the link) is a graph of salaries for EEs v inflation, 1999-2009. Salaries have basically tracked inflation, which means they've been basically flat over the period.

http://www.myplan.com/bar_chart.php?type=salary&first_year=1999&last_year=2009&1999=61520&2000=66320&2001=68630&2002=70480&2003=72090&2004=74220&2005=76060&2006=78900&2007=82090&2008=85350&2009=86250&secondary=cpi


There is no evidence of shortage in any engineering field, except perhaps spot shortages in certain regions or for certain specialized tasks. The omnipresent propaganda that there is comes from think tanks paid to cherry-pick to find that result in order to justify h1b and other wage-suppressing programs. There is no evidence of labor shortages in ANY high tech field.

The same think tanks paid to find evidence that US schooling has become worse than ever, and worse in comparison to other countries, in order to break protections for teachers. The same for public workers, the same for auto workers. All the last bastions of unionization in the US, what a surprise.

Your claim that Indian and Pakistani doctors are not working for less is false. Doctors and nurses are also (since 1990) under competition from h1b recruits (as well as from several other directions, which is why private practices are disappearing and why even specialties are flatlining.)

http://www.workpermit.com/us/medical_h1b_foreign_doctors.htm

"The Medical Group Management Association (MGMA) released its latest data regarding physician earnings. The 2008 report is based on 2007 annual compensation, and the results show that compensation for specialists was generally flat, and some specialists even showed a decline in average income when compared to data from the previous year."

The primary impetus of the HMO conversion of the late 80s/early 90s was to force MDs into HMOs and pay them on salary. At the same time, h1b visas, PAs, nurse practitioners and other low-wage options for primary care were opened up & student loans took on an increasing importance in education financing, while medical school costs outpaced inflation.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KKoxYzCKT0s/TnKlZVcwgAI/AAAAAAAAAyg/SQ1WEmQ6bjo/s1600/851_1+declining+physician+salary.jpg


Your claim that "Underpayment and unavailability of qualified applicants are not factors that are mutually excluding" is just stupid.

Basic laws of economics (verified by history) say wages rise in tight labor markets. Flat or declining wages = NO SHORTAGE.

There are many effective lies that have no truth behind them except this one: information is effectively controlled by the ruling class, and a significant fraction of people won't search out the rest of the story because they take what's fed to them at face value. Not the least of the reasons for that is the fairystory we are fed from birth -- about how wonderful our economic system is, along with demonization of ordinary people as "losers" who don't deserve better because they are stupid, unwilling to work and improve themselves, crazy, criminal, not "the best & the brightest" -- is so inculcated in us from the cradle that it takes us years to notice the glitches in the matrix and start thinking about them.

I took the time to answer your post at length on the off-chance that you are still young and immersed in the lies of our times.

And I'm retracting everything I've said in my previous messages.

I am aware of the ubiquity of propaganda. I am a skeptic and don't admire this economic system. I know the ruling class effectively controls the information. Still I fell for the lie. Why? Effort takes time. I don't have any. About that, I am 100 percent informed, and you are not, so, don't even argue it isn't true. It's why a lot of people will fall for it. There is a default, since I don't have the information, and I don't have time to dig it up and read. I take whatever fragmentary evidence I can from a source I trust. I gave my source. Thank you for correcting me, thank you for the sources which I will bookmark.

And I thank you through my teeth despite the fact that you called me stupid. So, that will be the last deferential thing I say to you, because I hate your arrogant guts.

Unlike propaganda, you make the correct information nauseating to read and odious to accept. Conceit is no way to impart facts. I don't care how good they are. Especially when you admit facts are losing to the pull of propaganda, for which everyone is vulnerable. You know this, but you act like a prick with what you know anyway. This is malpractice. With all your knowledge, you're making yourself a liability to your cause. Should I say to our cause? I really don't want to.

The pricklier you make the message, the less likely it is to ever overcome propaganda. I can almost admire that you're informed, and you have the time, skills and resources to do it. Almost, because I think perhaps the fact that you're an accessory to killing off the knowledge you have should give you pause. I might have muddled the knowledge. You waste most our effort when you open your mouth or touch a keyboard.

And I'm so heart-warmed to know that your time was probably worthwhile but only if I'm young and innocent. Join Douchebags Anonymous already, before you alienate too many liberal progressives. You make listening to Limbaugh too easy.

"Your claim that "Underpayment and unavailability of qualified applicants are not factors that are mutually excluding" is just stupid."

As for the rest of my post, the only personal remark in it was at the end, when I said I was taking the trouble of the long post, with legitimate citations, on the chance that you're a young person. You know why I said that? Because forums like this are full of shills who will just repeat the propaganda, ad infinitum, no matter what citations you bring to bear, and it's a waste of time to get into it with them. They'll just ignore them and continue ladling the crap. (and on edit, they will *always* make it personal.) I've seen a lot of them, and your initial post struck me in that light. It read arrogantly to me too, but I wasn't sure.

Unlike you, however, I didn't spend half my post telling you off based on my initial gut reaction. I spent 95% of it impersonally refuting the content of your post -- not my assessment of your character and motivations -- with cold facts, to the best of my ability and understanding, based on 60 years on earth and my own experience being a young person who believed the self-serving lies of the propaganda machine.

It's nothing to do with conceit, more with anger and pity and frustration with the false lives most people are condemned to live. Sorry, you read me wrong. Judgments about people's motivations based on a couple of posts on the internets are usually wrong.

I appreciate that you are intellectually honest to the degree that you'd take the information in my post into account. Thanks.

And btw, I *never* call *persons* stupid, only claims, and I give evidence to support that. Unlike many many so-called progressives who can be seen calling religious people, uneducated people, right-wing people, the 'sheeple,' -- whatever their particular prejudice is -- "stupid". Not their belief system, not their claims, but the people themselves. Because part of the propaganda we are subject to is the whole ideology of intelligence, where the world is divided into the "smart" and the "stupid," with the "smart" therefore entitled to rule, or at least manage and natter at, the rest. This serves the economic system very well & is part of the many divide and conquer tactics of the ruling class. And those who identify as progressives, typically well-educated, are particularly susceptible to this kind of thinking about intelligence, and not so likely to see its problematic aspect.

I don't divide the world into the smart and the stupid.

You really have read me wrong.

"The other thing that is disturbing about Jacob's interview is this comment, "He recently sent a letter to Homeland Security, he says, to request that it extend practical work training visas to 29 months". Most people would miss the importance of this comment but if you read these comments in light of the H-1B job ad ("If your performance is satisfactory, Qualcomm will be interested in hiring you as their permanent employee after 9 months of employment with Mindlance and working onsite at Qualcomm.&quot , it's clear that Qualcomm brings these people into San Diego using the Indian job shop H-1B Visa. They work these people hard for the 9 month "evaluation" period, after which they are either shipped back to India or transferred to a Qualcomm H-1B. Apparently if Jacobs had his way the 9 month evaluation period would be extended to almost 2.5 years.

Imagine the pressure that these poor immigrants must be under, either work long and hard hours to make the cut or be sent packing back to India. It's the kind of incentive that no American has and why companies like Qualcomm are lobbying hard to remove the H-1B Visa cap completely. For the poor immigrant who cranks out the best and hardest working 9 months that he has ever done, the trials and tribulations aren't over though. Once moved to a Qualcomm H-1B Visa, the employee can now apply for Green Card status (which many if not most do) and this process takes 6 years to be approved, during which time they can't leave the company or risk having the Green Card process restarted. They must also work hard to ensure that they aren't laid off or terminated as this would require that they leave the country within approximately 2 weeks. This is exactly the indentured servitude policies that create an uneven playing field that both Americans and immigrants complain about."

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/mar/09/citylights1-american-engineers-short-supply/

Oh, please. Silicon Valley is full of qualified unemployed software engineers.

I wish I could remember the company name, but when I worked there some company was found to have hired Indian engineers and stacked them up 10-15 to an apartment for living quarters, and they were paying them far below the supposedly fair wage.

i have to laugh at people who say it's about quality. lol.

as if i needed another reason

It amazes me how this company is still in business.

But then again, so does the Kardashians being on TV.
Says a lot about this society we live in.

a company is worth billions, yet charges no user fees - you gotta think long and hard about that

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/09/six-reasons-why-wired-uks-editor-isnt-on-facebook/

... Rather, no unemployed software engineers who will work cheaply enough -- and put up with enough crap -- to suit Mr. Zuckerberg.

I've worked with lots of software developers brought here from India for more than a decade.

I thought the whole H1B visa thing was about bringing in cheap labor...

They never heard of H1B visas? This is hardly a first.

I don't know whether Facebook has done it. I do know that other domestic companies have, so the claim in the article is false.

Even a few DUers have mentioned this happening in their own tech companies, and that was a few years back...

Anyone in the South Bay ( San Franciso area) has known of the influx of Indian hires as far back as 2000 and the complaints of
the newly fired Americans having to train their Indian replacements.
Stories about the american layoffs and of Indian hires were in the paper every day for years.
I worked for a housing discrimination organization during which time I saw daily evidence of the high numbers of Indian families living and working in the area.

If so then Facebook should at least lose some tax credits.

And how is this different from Americans working overseas?

Federal law, no. It's perfectly legal to fire all your employees and replace them with Indians working for 1/3 the salary.

In California, you have to at least show something resembling an attempt to hire an American for a position before you bring someone in on an H1B. As you can imagine, it doesn't take much. I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for most of the last 18 years, and I can tell you first hand that I saw many consulting shops which were obviously visa mills. Needless to say, the workers (who were almost always Indian) worked insane hours for pathetic pay--and sometimes even lived in company housing.

The visa racket is not new. What's new is that Facebook is doing this so openly: I'm inclined to think this is some sort of lobbying effort, since big tech companies regularly lobby the federal government to increase the size of the visa pool.

But make no mistake about it, this is about keeping American pay as low as possible. There are lots of great people with outstanding technical skills in the Bay Area--and a lot of them are looking for jobs. The big companies are manipulating the market.

on Craigslist and newspapers in the Bay area,
advertisements for "entry level" jobs requiring 10 years of code experience in a code that was only 4 years old ( or obsolete)
and a PH D. in engineering and mountain climbing
or some such other ridiculous requirements for 10.00 an hour jobs.
Obviously the company could point to the lack of response and say no Americans applied.
I always wondered about that.

Mom, who worked as a paralegal for a top immigration law firm for years, calls those "labor cert" ads.

Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2012, 05:35 PM - Edit history (1)

"Isn't there a law banning outsourcing except for compelling lack of qualified applicants?"

lol!

I saw an ad in the San Jose Mercury News once, when I worked for HP and it said something like "jobs available xxx-xxx-xxxx" at a number I recognized as HP's main number. I asked someone in HR, what the heck was that, and I was told We have to advertise jobs in the U.S. before we can hire overseas.

update: I should perhaps add that the ad was two lines of the smallest text possible.

as part of this jobs act that passed the house during the Pelosi speakership.

The slick design of Timeline. The "More Stories" button that always works. And so on.

nowadays. Apparently consumers will buy anything and put up with abysmal "customer service." One of the results of hiring the poorly educated and the incompetent.

More with the way corporations build and engineer things, and basically related to profit margins.

The workers don't choose the design, they don't choose what materials to use, they don't choose the specifications the product is manufactured to, the investment in the plant, they don't have the ability to stop production for flaws/problems unless management allows it, etc.

Workers are typically blamed for management's failures. Easy target. Tiresome.

Hi.. I am Indian.I am going to say little story.
1> Ancient:
* For about 10,000 years India has been the cynosure of all eyes.
* India was the richest country on earth until the time of British invasion in the

early 17th century.
* Over 5000 years ago when many cultures were only nomadic forests dwellers,Indians

had already established Harappan culture in Sindhu Valley(Indus Valley Civilization).
* World's first Universitu was establishd in Takshila in 700BC.More than 10,500

students from all over the world stuied more than 60 subjects here.
* The World's First Granite Temple is the Brihadeswara temple at Tanjavur in Tamil

Nadu, made from a single '80-tonne' piece of granite.Built in just five years(1004 AD

& 1009AD).
* Bhaskrayacharya calculated the time taken by the Earth to orbit the Sun in 5th

century BC to be 365.258756484 days.
* The art of Navigation was first born in the river Sindh 6000 years ago.The word

Navigation is derived from the "Sanskrit" word "Navgathi".
* Chess(Shatrang) was invented in India.
2>Maths:
* India invented the"Number System".
* "Zero(0)" was invented by Aryabhata.
* The largest numbers used by Hindus in 5000BC during the vedic perod was 10(*53) with

specific names.The largest number used today is 10(*12).
* Calculus,Trignometry and Algebra came from India.
* The decimal system was developed in India in 100BC.
* The value of "Pi" was first calculated by Budhayana.
* Bhudhayana also explained the concept of "Pythagorean Theorem".
* Quadratic Equations were invented by Sridharacharya in 11th century.
3>Medical Science:
* Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans."Chakra" consolidated

Ayurveda more than 2500 years ago.
* Susutra,the father of surgery conducted complicated surgeries like

cataract,cesareans,artificial limbs,fractures,urinary stones,plastic surgery,brain

surgery,etc.
* "Anesthesia" was in use in ancient India. Over 125 surgical instruments were used in

ancient India.
* Knowledge of Anatomy,Physiology,Embryology,Digestion,Metabolism,Genetics, & immunity

is also found ancient texts.
4> Veterinary Medicine:
* Veterinary Science was well developed in India as early as Vedic period.Atharva

Veda(1500-500BC) has reference on horce management and treatment elephant management

and heal care etc.
* Shalihotra(2350 BC) is considered the founder of veterinary sciences.He was the most

eminent authority on horce breeding.
* World's first veterinary hospital on record,existed in India during Ashoka's regima.
5> Miscellaneous:
* India was the only sourrce of diamonds until 1896,according to the Gemological

Institute of America.
* IEEE of USA has proved that the pioneer of Wireless Communication was Professor

Jagdish Chandra Bosh and not Marconi.
* The reservoir dam for irrigation was built in "Saurashtra" in 150BC.
* Sanskrit is considered as the mother of all higher languages.This is because it is

the most precise, and therefore suitable language for computer software.(a reoprt in

Forbes magazine,July 1987).
6> Today:
* The co-founder of Sun Microsystem is an Indian,Vinod Khosla.
* The creator of Pentium Chip is an Indian,Vinod Dahm.
* The founder and creator of Hotmail is an Indian, Sabeer Bhatia.
* The creator of USB is an Indian,Ajay Bhatt.
* World's first Veterinary Educational Videos website "www.vetvideos.com" prepared by an Indian.
* Six sense founded by an Indian,Pranav Mistry.
* list is going.
7>Word for India:
* Mark Twain:"Read on internet about India."
* French scholar Romain Rolland:"Read on internet about India."
* Will Durant(1885-1981) American historian:"Read on internet about India."
Still.. I am going to bow and say "Namaste". Because we believe god is living in every human's heart without difference.
I am Indian.I love my country.I am proud to be an Indian.

I think you can understand why the need to protect jobs in the US and to ensure success for our own efforts sometimes may seem like a disparagement of India and other countries that have benefited from US outsourcing of jobs and business. When you see some crossing the line from frustration to something more offensive, I hope you can keep the emotions fueling this, in mind. And realize that most Americans, who never travel outside their own country, are profoundly ignorant of the history and trends/advancements in other countries, making them all too susceptible to the propaganda messages put forward by some in the media.

India has lots of problems there is no doubt, but as the world's largest democracy, I think most who visit are amazed and heartened by the progress being made. And, yes, you should be proud.