MH17 disaster: Russians 'controlled BUK missile system'
Source: BBC
Russians were operating a BUK missile launcher seen in the area where the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet MH17 were shot down, eyewitnesses have told Panorama.
...
Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.
...
The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."
"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29109398
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)But Robert Parry said......
Billy Budd
(310 posts)that a weather station was a biological warfare laboratory...said it at the UN ...he has more gravitas than 3 unnamed civilian witnesses able to identify specific equipment etc
psychopomp
(4,668 posts)What is your agenda?
Billy Budd
(310 posts)The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)You seriously need some new material, add a little variety to your non sequiters.
Billy Budd
(310 posts)asking you anything ....why would I ? Sir
From W Blum
E-mail sent to the Washington Post July 23, 2014 about the destruction of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17:
Dear Editor,
Your July 22 editorial was headed: Russias barbarism. The West needs a strategy to contain the worlds newest rogue state.
Pretty strong language. Vicious, even. Not one word of hard evidence in the editorial to back it up. Then, the next day, the Associated Press reported:
Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for creating the conditions that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.
the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.
Where were these words in the Post? You people are behaving like a rogue newspaper.
William Blum
Billy Budd
(310 posts)of US Department figures because they have the record of telling truth ...they never ever lie of mislead....waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Billy Budd
(310 posts)as Larry Curly and Moe ..........
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)On Thursday, Yan Leder, a managing editor from the Russian service at BBC explained that the report was removed as it contained mistakes.
He added that the report had imperfect structure and incomplete compliance of the editorial values of BBC.
Unfortunately in this case the report wasnt submitted to BBC standard editorial analysis. As a result, there were several omissions [in the report], he added.
According to Leder, the correspondent should have asked the witnesses specifying questions in response to their accusations and include experts opinion in her report.
http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/
Billy Budd
(310 posts)After starting a propaganda stampede with a lead story about photos of Russian troops purportedly in Ukraine the New York Times admits the pictures really dont prove much, and one photo was labeled as snapped in Russia when it was really taken in Ukraine
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Billy Budd
(310 posts)I was merely adding another example ...... but it was very plain what your post was saying...this is a full court push by Western Media just like Western media did in Iraq...they serve as conduit for misinformation and to demonize whoever has to be demonized...
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)is the blowback may come in the form of of major US cities being destroyed in thermonuclear blasts. I'm ashamed of my controlled media. They are no better than RT, Tass or even the North Korea media. They say what they are told to say or a CIA commissar is at the door tomorrow.
Igel
(35,320 posts)The photo that was alleged to be taken in Russia was taken in rebel-held Ukraine, and Russian sources "exposed" it as being shot in Ukraine-government held Ukraine.
However, the "exposed" bit was rather nicely shown to be wish-based nonsense. The contrast between the supposed symbols on a street address and background was too low to provide any useful information. Only those who wished to see it could. Examine the actual pixels and you get random noise.
And, as we know, the very idea of Russian troops in Ukraine--at least those not on their vacation--has to be a lie because Lavrov says so, and surely no Russian government official has even so much as misrepresented the truth going back for at least a hundred years. Unless we count all the times they did, but only traitors to the cause would do that.
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)"THE EVIL CHOCOLATIER DID IT... ROBERT PARRY'S SOURCES FOUND COCOA RESIDUE AT THE SCENE"
Billy Budd
(310 posts)claim it was Robert Parry himself who actually fired the BUK missiles .....it was on Social media ...
psychopomp
(4,668 posts)What is your agenda?
Billy Budd
(310 posts)I do not answer impertinent queries
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)two said it was Santa Claus, one said it was the tooth fairy and two others said it was the easter bunny. They were alarmed because Santa Claus was very disciplined, wearing a camouflage instead of his red suit and his "ho ho ho"s were in a different accent.
"Saw a missile launcher 'in the vicinity' and 'several hours before' the MH17 crash" is not exactly a smoking gun.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)....who up to that point had no air force?
Oh, that's right. They deployed it because they wanted to randomly shoot at airplanes in the event one of them was Putin's plane.
Billy Budd
(310 posts)That it was a Ukrainian army defector who fired the missile .... why won't it release Satellite surveillance photo...where are the transcripts and recording of Pilot to tower communication....why did Saddam have those ultra light lawn mower engine airplanes .....to bomb the USA
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Why did Colin Powell lie in front of the UN?
Why did Condi Rice scaremonger about a "mushroom cloud"?
Why did the Bush administration lie about yellowcake etc etc?
I don't know the truth about MH17 but I'm not going to rely on hearsay from the Ukraine govt, the BBC or the State Dept.
Fool me once...won't get fooled again.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)They are examples of hearsay used as evidence.
The concepts of logic and evidence do not suddenly change just because there is a new administration.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Funny how you don't seem to take issue with that....at least what was reported by the BBC appears to make some logical sense.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)It's on the record now.
Billy Budd
(310 posts)Michael Bociurkiw, who was one of the first international inspectors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to reach the crash site and who spent more than a week examining the ruins appears to be convinced that MH17 was downed by machinegun fire consistent with the myriad bullet-holes visible on the fuselage. Heres what he told on CBC World News:
There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pock-marked. It almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we havent seen anywhere else."
-------------------------------------------------------------
German pilot and airlines expert, Peter Haisenko, thinks that Malaysia Flight 17 was not blown up by a missile, but shot down by the type of double-barreled 30-mm guns used on Ukrainian SU-25 fighter planes. Haisenko presented his theory in an article which appeared on the Global Research website titled Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the Shooting Down of Malaysian MH17. Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile. Heres an excerpt from the article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111
The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile
. (Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the Shooting Down of Malaysian MH17. Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile, Global Research)
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)However, having said that,
let's examine how the MH17 got there. Its original course was 200 miles to the south but Kiev air traffic controllers diverted the route to fly over the rebel held territory.
Why? Because the Ukrainian air force was using passenger planes as human shields, hiding their fighters behind the passenger planes to carry out attacks in the war zone.
Rebels had no clue it was a passenger plane but Ukrainians DID and THEY sent the plane into harm's way, knowing the danger fully.
Thus, Ukraine is guilty for having the plane shot down with malice and aforethought and taking several steps to cause the plane's demise.
Or at least a careless disregard for human life.
PERIOD.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Why not just cite Alex Jones and the other batshit crazy CT-er's, and be done with it?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Never heard of the other one, but a headline that starts out "false flag" doesn't scream objectivity.
So, one more time: any credible sources?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)before MH17.
This is a plea in which this woman mentions the dirty tactic. From back in June.
Starting at 1:05: "Terrible things are happening. For example, an incident happened recently, a passenger airplane was flying by and a Ukrainian aircraft hid behind it. Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs.... (after which) he regained altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again"
There is a reason that Kiev has refused to give the controller tapes to the investigation.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)That is what's known as a credible and reliable source. If Ukraine didn't hand over the tapes, why are they quoting the controllers in Dnipropetrovsk and Rostov verbatim?
Don't bother to answer, you'll be on ignore.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)"In its stead, here's some woo."
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Zero, zip, nada, none.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Maybe Dick Cheney did it from an undisclosed location.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)There are plenty of credible eyewitnesses that saw soldiers who were dressed in Russian uniforms operating a BUK system within a few kilometers of the site where the missiles were very likely launched, including an AP writer.
Try again.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)I think that your sources are spreading Western propaganda and they have been discredited numerous times.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)No one has 'discredited' my sources, but yours are downright laughable.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"You have your choices in belief .. I have mine"
Which seems little more than rationalizing Novorossiya's recent anschluss...
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Which has been corroborated by several different reporters.
What is interesting is you already say they did it, but blame the victim.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)You are the first I have heard try and make this claim. Have you actually done any reading?
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)L980 was the route most often flown by Malaysian Airlines this flight, and the PILOT requested to use it. The only thing Ukrainian air control did was approve his request.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)This was commonly reported so i am not sure where you are finding your info. The question of why has never been answered. It was speculated that it may have been due to weather, but there were no storms in the area.
It was also clearly reported that they were specifically told to drop lower in altitude, again, no actual explanation and the tapes are (so far) not being given to the investigating team.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-fateful-thunderstorm-may-have-doomed-flight-mh17-2014-7
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)"...British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa and KLM are among the airlines to have used exactly the same routing over eastern Ukraine in recent days, according to website FlightRadar24.
Fifteen out of 16 airlines in the Association of Asia Pacific Airlines fly this route over Ukraine, Malaysias transport minister Liow Tiong Lai said Friday. European airlines also use the same route, and traverse the same airspace.
"...MH17's flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace, the Malaysia Airlines statement said. "Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules. ....
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/why-was-malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-over-ukraine-time-money-n159161
And being told to fly at 33,000 feet, rather than 35,000 feet, didn't matter a fiddler's fart. Due to the fact that L980 is a VERY busy route, the most likely explanation for being told to fly at 33,000 feet was to keep necessary vertical separation between aircraft.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/09/mh17-five-things-dutch-safety-board-report
Then the Malaysians asked to go to 34,000 feet, but were told that that corridor was not available. (The traffic was being directed on what is called the odd standard meaning that it was using altitudes with odd numbers, 33,000 or 35,000 feet.)
So the Malaysian 777 remained at 33,000 feet. There were war zone altitude restrictions in place forbidding commercial flights below 32,000 feet, giving Flight 17 the meager margin of 1,000 feet between it and the assumed area of danger. (A third aircraft close by at the time under Ukrainian control, an Airbus A330, was cruising west at 40,000 feet.)
At just after 1.20pm all communication with Flight MH17 was lost.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/09/mh17-let-another-jet-move-out-of-missile-range.html
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)See #65.
Unless I'm missing something...
[center]
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf
[/center]
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)(copy and paste seems to be disabled for some reason). The suggestion to go to 35,000 feet was at 12:53. The crew requested to go 20 miles to the left at 13:00, and then asked to go up to 34,000 feet, but were told that wasn't possible.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Which incidentally flew over the same area at the same time.
William769
(55,147 posts)Such a tragedy and the sane people knew all along who was responsible for this horrific act of aggression and senseless loss of life.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,235 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Just want to be sure of your meaning?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Hearsay from anonymous sources.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)samsingh
(17,599 posts)and the Aids experts we also lost.
MrNJ
(200 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)All the spin, deflection, lies, propaganda, finger-pointing and conspiracy bullshit is finally about to fade from view, and lo and behold, we're right back at the most probable cause we had from day one...So it turns out that Robert Parry and other useful idiots on the pro-Putin left aren't the expert crash investigators they fancied themselves as...
The Dutch Safety Board is releasing their prelim findings report this week, which should start to put this beyond all doubt...I'm not holding my breath for any apologies from the usual suspects, though...
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)here on DU when I realized that we were mislead about the use of R2P and that Gadaffi was probably right that the rebels were terrorists.
If I'm similarly wrong in this case I will also mention it.
Billy Budd
(310 posts)The Dutch Safety Board will issue the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 on Tuesday 9 September 2014. The preliminary report will be available at www.safetyboard.nl at 10:00 AM local time Amsterdam (08:00 hours UTC).
pampango
(24,692 posts)The government has shot down zero planes, and does not need anti-aircraft missiles, since the separatists have no planes. People can believe whatever they want but you really have to be a BELIEVER to think that the government shot it down.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)rather than rebels. People had put the targeting of a civilian airplane down to untrained personnel using it.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)but a lot of posts pointing out this was a sophisticated system not capable of being operated by insurgents who likely had fired a shoulder anti-aircraft missile but had never seen anything like the BUK. I remember seeing posts that the targeting is normally done by a radar that could be separated by quite a ways from where the missile system is. Which certainly raises ... questions.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Why haven't the black box records been released? What was the reason Ukrainian air traffic controllers told the airliner to do what they told it? They did tell the plane to do some really strange things, like reduce altitude and change course so as to pass over an active conflict zone.
What we have instead is an trial by innuendo, conducted in the popular media, nothing more.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and wouldn't let them out.
Russia released all the satellite data AND the ATC communications from the point the flight left. The ATC communication records clearly show that the Kiev ATC diverted the plane to use it as a human shield for their fighters.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)We know they sent the airliner odd and suspicious instructions. There has to be a reason why they did so.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Seems to me Ukraine wants a trial by media where evidence is optional.
Remember the outcry over how the black boxes may never be recovered, the rebels would tamper with them, Russia would stole them...how vital the information was and that it be released to prevent a civil war?
What happened to all that?
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)daleo
(21,317 posts)Q - And just how did you know they were Russians?
A - It was the way they pronounced the letter "g".
karynnj
(59,504 posts)Not one of the most uplifting Bible stories, but it is relevant here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
daleo
(21,317 posts)But none of that would be relevant in a court of law.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)Hmmmm?
Russia Demands Publication Of Recordings From Downed Flight MH17
Mark Trevelyan, Reuters
First posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 02:23 PM EDT | Updated: Saturday, August 30, 2014 02:35 PM EDT
MOSCOW - Russia is demanding to know why international investigators have yet to publish the black box data from a Malaysian airliner that was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July, a deputy defence minister said in an interview published on Saturday.
Moscow blames Ukraine for the disaster, in which all 298 passengers and crew were killed. In a version of events widely believed in the West, Ukraine says the Boeing 777 was shot down by pro-Russian separatists with a surface-to-air missile.
"The Boeing catastrophe throws up more and more questions. But lately not many people are talking about this," Deputy Defence Minister Anatoly Antonov told RIA news agency.
"Why have the data still not been published about the conversations between the air traffic controllers and the pilots of the Boeing? Why haven't the data been presented from the international investigation of the black boxes? Who doesn't want this to happen?"
MORE...
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/30/russia-demands-publication-of-recordings-from-downed-flight-mh17
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)So it sounds like Russia is trumping up "questions" ala Glenn Beck or climate change deniers or anti-evolutionists or UFO conspiracy theorists or 9/11 truthers.
As opposed to actually seeking the truth. Russia has no right to those recordings until the investigation is over, at which point they'll likely be made public, as in many other aircraft disasters (there is in fact a site that has every recording transcript of every major crash).
Response to joshcryer (Reply #60)
davidpdx This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)was indeed analysed, the preliminary report states (see: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf ).
Tabel 1: Transcript of radio- and telephone communication
Time
From To Means Text
13:08:00
MH17 DNP RAD Dnipro Radar, MALASIAN one seven, flight level 330
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, Dnipro Radar, good day, radar contact
MH17 DNP RAD MALASIAN one seven
13:19:21
DNP RST TEL Yes
RST DNP TEL So. Dniepr, Rostov one. Can you give a course (direction) for
Malaysian to Rostov to the RND point, we have three of those
there
DNP RST TEL To the Malaysian that is seventeen?
RST DNP TEL Yes, we will return it back then to TIKNA
DNP RST TEL Great (ok)
RST DNP TEL Yes, thanks
13:19:49
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, due traffic proceed direct to point ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA
13:19:56
MH17 DNP RAD ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA, MALASIAN one seven
13:20:00
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, and after point ROMEO NOVEMBER
DELTA expect direct to TIKNA
13:21:10
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, how do you read me? MALASIAN one
seven, Dnipro Radar
13:21:36
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, Dnipro Radar
13:22:02
DNP MH17 RAD MALASIAN one seven, Dnipro Radar
13:22:05
RST DNP TEL Listening (to) you, its Rostov
DNP RST TEL Rostov, do you observe the Malaysian by... by the response?
RST DNP TEL No, it seems that its target started falling apart.
DNP RST TEL Well, its not responding for our calls too
RST DNP TEL And not responding for the calls, yes?
DNP RST TEL Yes. And we dont see it yet. So you gave them a turn, they
confirmed and...
RST DNP TEL And thats all, yes?
DNP RST TEL Yes its disappeared
RST DNP TEL Wait, Ill ask
DNP RST TEL Dont you observe anything on primary?
RST DNP TEL Yes, yes, yes, nothing. We see nothing
DNP RST TEL Ok then, we are calling them here now
/... http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf (p. 15).
But note also:
... The preliminary report on the crash of MH17 being prepared by the Dutch Safety Board contains a number of facts based on various sources; allowing an initial, provisional sequence of events to be made. The investigation team collected information from various sources, such as the Cockpit Voice Recorder, the Flight Data Recorder, satellite and other images, and radar information. All the data is then compared to determine whether the various sources corroborate each other, or show a different view. This is a delicate and time-consuming process that has not yet been completed...
... Investigative materials and sources of information used by the Dutch Safety Board in its investigations are protected by law. Only information relevant to determining the cause of the MH17 crash will be included in the final report. The available investigative information will not be released publicly in their entirety, except for what is published in the final report. This is in accordance with the Dutch Safety Board Act (Rijkswet Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid) and the ICAO agreement...
/... http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/onderzoek/1559/questions-and-answers-concerning-the-investigation-into-flight-mh17#fasen