I hate these IS sons of #$@%s.

Glad you're here! Guess we need Kurt in there...





Sorry... couldn't help myself.

Some reports have said that Turkey have tanks sitting on the edge of the border doing nothing. Perhaps they are just protecting their border, not venturing into Syria. This is where the rubber meets the road. What are the mid east countries going to do about ISIS. We (USA) should NOT be involved in this, but I believe the mid east are just waiting for USA to bring in the troops and start up again... I can just see the board table with McCain, Graham, and the other war mongers smiling from ear to ear.... Mitt, and the rest sitting with them....not a good scene.

not our border. Not our position to step in.

The country of Turkey is more than capable of defending their border against a few thousand rebels (who are apparently also simultaneously laying siege to Bagdad). But I suspect everyone expects the USA to step in and "fix" it. That way we take all the combat deaths, we bear all the costs, and we take all the inevitable recriminations and lifelong hatreds from the people who get balked.

Kurds are a problem for them the way Armenians were 100 years ago. This is how they handle problems.

They are blocking Kurdish reinforcements from reaching the town.

We spend lavish amounts on intelligence, review every e-mail sent from the US to outside the US if not every e-mail just about everywhere -- and we don't know who is sending the money to fund ISIS?

This is a failure of intelligence.

And the failure is one of focus. When you want to find something out, you focus on finding it out and not on snooping at people's bathing suit pictures or soldier's calls and letters back home, etc. You focus on finding out who is funding ISIS, you will find out who is funding ISIS, and you will destroy the entire operation.

And if you don't destroy it, it will be because ISIS has the support of ordinary people on the ground or is at least capable of intimidating people it conquers into giving it material support. So you destroy the crops and food supplies where ISIS is and will go. Will innocent civilians die in that strategy? Yes. But any one of them who speaks out against ISIS is doomed to begin with, and if ISIS is allowed to succeed, it will be bigger and stronger.

I am all for religious freedom. I am for a large marketplace of ideas. It is not necessary to spread your religion by invasion, plunder murder and cruelty. ISIS should be stopped.

But our intelligence service needs to do its job -- protecting America -- and forget about politics and getting control of the people within America. Preserving the peace within America is the job of the FBI and the Justice Department and a few other departments in the US.

ISIS is a sign that our intelligence services are not functioning well.

Further, ISIS has no air force. Our air power should be able to cut off their supply lines and any military equipment that can be seen from the air. They cannot hide tanks and trucks all the time. It is a desert landscape. Our intelligence needs to get itself focused on its own tasks and let others do theirs.

and also how Isis was making 2 mill a day from oil, less now that they've bombed many sites in Syria. They were selling it on the black market.

Turkey hates the Kurdish fighters and they've been fighting them for years. Thus, it's a win for them to get wiped out in Kobane.

Very, very sad. The Kurd fighters were Marxist Leninist 20 years ago and the Turks use this to have had them labeled terrorists, the US has to kiss up to Turkey because they desperately need their airbase to prosecute this war. The Syrian Kurd fighters and political wing remain one of the more progressive groups and as we see the women are honored there and they fight alongside the men.

since I just detailed some of their funding - or what is you comment?

So not much can really be expected from his comments on the subject....

for being in the know!

We could only wish that the CIA was that much on the inside. The truth is that there was an intelligence failure on Isis and the embassy staff in Baghdad wasn't up to the task.

On what facts or evidence do you base your theory?

I know you are very intelligent, so I would like to read your answer. I don't think you say that without having thought it through. I "know" your ability to think things through to well for that.

Care to share? I will understand if you prefer not to.

One 'Ballyhoo':

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014910621#post5

My view is that that sort of claim is bloody-minded nonesense.

There is something odd going on that we don't know about. But I don't know what it is.

Who do you think was funding ISIS?

QATAR and Saudi Arabia as some have suggested?

It is pretty well established that the Saudi 'special service' under Prince Bandar fostered I.S.I.L. as it began operations in Syria. Not long ago he was dismissed from that post in something approaching disgrace, at least by the standards of Saudi royals. So at this point aid from Arabia is not official policy, nor through government channels. It is unclear just how much effort the Saudi government is putting into stopping financial aid given by private persons.

It has long been a policy of the Saudis and the small Emirates to posture as benefactors of radical groups, as a sort of insurance against their turning their guns against these monarchies, which are well known and often derided for their accommodations with the West. The Saudis in particular are extremely leery of Shia power, both because of attempts in the early days of the Iranian revolution to seize the shrines in Mecca, and because in many of the areas of Arabia where oil is most accessible, the population is predominantly Shia, even though taken as a whole in the peninsula, Shia are a decided minority.

Things are getting pretty tangled now, since it is abundantly clear the I.S.I.L. is hostile towards the Arabian and Gulf monarchies. But this does not mean individuals in those places, even individuals of some means, are necessarily hostile to the pretensions of the I.S.I.L., or feel its triumph would be their personal downfall.

One of the roots from which the I.S.I.L. grew was a sturdy smuggling network, arising naturally long ago from the disregard of national borders in the area for tribal territories and alignments, and used by Sadam's government to evade sanctions. The networks still exist, and can still be plied.

Do you think our intelligence agencies were oblivious to the growth of the ISIS movement or do you think they just ignored it or do you think that they let it fester and grow into something that would require a large military response out of negligence or perhaps intentionally?

Those are the questions that are beneath my claim that our intelligence services did not focus on the real threats while spending a lot of energy and money on useless busy work. The busy work of course makes them feel like they are doing something useful. And they certainly fool Congress with it. As long as we are spending lots of money on intelligence and on military equipment, we must be winning they say to themselves.

Focus is the secret. Deciding where to spend your energy and resources is very important. I don't think our intelligence agencies are choosing wisely.

I prefer mistake to malice as an explanation.

I think people in the covert agencies sometimes focus on the wrong factors, and over-rate their ability to control and influence.

Worse, I think they often think they know more than they do, and know many things that 'just ain't so'.

One factor which often gets left out of analysis, particularly of the 'such-and-so is really a pawn of the C.i.A.' sort, is the likelihood that the C.I.A., rather than being in control of some group or other, has in fact been played by it, been deceived and used for the group's own purposes.

ddd

....our intelligence knows where their money came from, and those sources are drying up.

Most of the money and supplies they have were seized from the territory they've overrun.

We've already bombed and destroyed some of the oil depots that they were using for revenue, and there are apparently more revenue-earning targets that will be destroyed.

Remember, this is an "organization" that was essentially benign for two or three years before they began sweeping into Iraq, and during that time the acquired millions in capital. I seriously doubt that many if any of the sources of income that they had in the past are still supplying them - either friendly or through territory seizure.

That's an error.

But our intelligence agencies should have known what was going on in this group which was active in Syria. We should have known what their philosophy was. That is one of the reasons that I opposed our giving aid to the rebels in Syria. It is too difficult to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys there. In some cases, an Assad, although a horrible dictator, is the lessor evil. In some cases, all the fighters, all the sides are cruel.

where they can get stuff across the Turkish border into Syria?

The NATO doctrine of all states coming to the aid of one attacked, is voluntary. Wondering if a 'stateless' actor such as ISIL can be attacked. This is more than a civil war or an attack on one state by another, as WW2 and Cold War and post Cold War acts were.

This movement festered for decades under several names, cloaked by what we by shorthand call religious fundamentalism. It's gone on longer than the American invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Extremists assassinated Sadat and the Muslim Brotherhood has been trying to unseat the governments in Egypt, Syria and anywhere else for decades. Turkey had its own version as the last expansionist caliphate fell after biting off more than it could chew.

I still doubt this is really about religious zealotry. That's for the rougher elements who do the grunt work. There is a lot of good arable land and water that is outside of the Arab League nations. They have done all they could to expand their population by religious control of women, which is why there is a war on women in America. To make more cannonfodder.

The goals remain the same, organizing society under an old set of rules and economics, and the society that produced ISIL have proven themselves to be long term planners. We don't have a vision for society ourselves, or so it would appear, to counter theirs. No one speaks of how good our democratic ways are, we might as well be singing the ISIL playlist of tunes for the West, everything is about our failures.

So I don't see many in the West that even want to define our part in terms that ISIL and the Muslim Brotherhood consider it. Much less resist this. We love comfort and wealth, and don't want to get involved in this. But their plans do involve us.

It's not about religion to me which is what they say it is to scare people. It's about territory on a planet that is undergoing climate change and there will be less freedom for all because of it.

Okay, went way offtopic.

Kobane won't be the last city to fall as the Middle East is reorganized from within to achieve greater social cohesion. Not a genteel one, but people will do that to survive... well, some of them. The most brutal ones will end up on top of their new empire.

carving out space for Sunni control.

The Sunni countries are western allies, that's why no one is in any real hurry to help the christians and shias in Iraq or Syria.

We will either make peace with the IS eventually, let a 'moderate' Sunni army take control, or send western troops in.

In all cases that will wrest control away from the groups which had it before.

into Kurdish, Sunni and Shia zones. In that case Isis is just laying claim to their preferred area for negotiations..

Turkey favors doing this so that the Kurds cannot lay claim to their own Kurdish caliphate in that area and the other Kurd areas.

They let them lose Kobane, but it's too close to Turkey to let Isis run free.

If ISIS maintains control of Kobane, they will use it as a base for operations, but may leave Turkey out of it for the time being.

Wonder if the Kurds can roust them from there without help?

I'm uncomfortable with our NATO 'ally.' Turkey is loosening its views on fundamentalism, not protecting its own secular model, which is not a good thing going forward. Will they support ISIS to return to their regional place of dominance, as home of the Ottomans?

We are dealing with some long standing, and not necessarily invalid, disagreements between the Kurds and Turks. I still see the issues in terms of population growth, which I know is a narrow one.

There are going to be changes in the region no matter how shocking it may be to the West which has been associated with the ME for centuries. I just wish we had more of an idea of what we are dealing with there. Some groups want us there, but others do not. We don't want to be there.

Obama has kept us out of this for the most part and been attacked mightily for not following the 'agenda' of some people. Just imagine the glowing MSM reports there would be if he went along with these groups.

I don't want whoever is elected in 2016 drag us into this mess and work to bankrupt us again, as Bush and Cheney did. My thought is they did what they did for that purpose, to destroy the country. The USA, its people and futures means nothing to people like that. I think the SHTF in 2017.

Perhaps my recent bouts of fatalism is interfering with my view on this...

Although I suspect Turkey is perfectly capable of defending itself, NATO must offer assistance if it's requested.

diplomats back with their heads still on. They have a tacit agreement--much as Assad had with ISIS. You don't hurt us, we won't hurt you.

reasons. Let's see if suddenly the IS attack diminishes after the November election.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/new-hampshire-gop-senator-obama-only-waging-war-on-isis-to-win-midterm-elections-for-democrats/

"When host Chris Wallace asked her whether she believes “that after the November election and acting tough and talking tough, that [Obama] will pull back from confronting ISIS,” Ayotte responded that she was, in fact, “very concerned about that and his resolve in that regard and I think that’s something that we have to stay focused on.”"

Turkey wants ISIS to take the town and massacre every Kurd there. Turkey views the Kurds, not ISIS, as their true enemy.

Turkey's membership in NATO is a legal fiction both sides maintain for political reasons.

Then however they may at their leisure attack Kobane.

I'm not sure they want Isis having that large swath of land on their border.

But I could be wrong, in that case Turkey is criminal regarding Isis.

It was pretty much stated outright by a Senator during a hearing that it was Turkey/Turkish interests. Someone in the Turkish government is looking the other way because millions of dollars of oil per day doesn't just appear via the oil fairy. There are definitely logistics involved.

I don't blame the Turkish government for that but perhaps elements were in on it. It was heavily discounted so $ was made being in the middle.

only one. I hope CNN isn't considered a CT aider and abider yet. There is so much here that people just don't get. Turkey is as much NATO as the US is still a real Democracy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/18/business/al-khatteeb-isis-oil-iraq/

Suruc, Turkey - As ISIL made progress towards the tomb of the Ottoman Empire founder's grandfather, Turkey this week deployed troops along its border with Syria. But locals say: "They are there just to watch."

The Turkish military is now scattered throughout Suruc, with heightened security, including new checkpoints along roads entering villages bordering Syria. In Mursitpinar alone, a village bordering the battleground town of Kobane, about 50 tanks have been deployed, while police have stocked up on weapons and artillery. Lawmakers in Turkey, a NATO member with a large and modern military, said this week, they would allow action to "defeat attacks directed towards our country from all terrorist groups".

But while Turkey gears up to play a more robust role in the US-led coalition against ISIL, it has not specifically defined what that role might be - and residents in the area say it is thus far "idle".

"Firstly the Turkish government took a long time to take any action, and now that they are taking action, it is not sufficient. They have just deployed their military to protect their own land here, but are in no way helping the Kurds in this fight," Aslan Mehmoud - a 54-year-old Syrian Kurd from Kobane, who is now living in Mursitpinar while his brothers help fight ISIL - told Al Jazeera.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/turkey-there-just-watch-kobane-201410481243432189.html

I hope Turkey holds their border

Turkey was mentioned as one of the ISIL funders. ISIL is not going to attack a secret ally, especially ones that buys their oil.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/18/business/al-khatteeb-isis-oil-iraq/

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/10/06/world/europe/ap-eu-turkey-oil-smuggling.html?smid=tw-share

HACIPASA, Turkey — Sevda, a 22-year-old waitress in a brown apron, recounts how she made a small fortune running smuggled diesel from a village on Turkey's wild and dangerous border with Syria. But the days when she could earn 20 times her salary waiting tables came to an abrupt end several months ago when police arrested her and slapped her employers with a massive fine.

The smuggled fuel came from oil wells in Iraq or Syria controlled by militants, including the Islamic State group, and was sold to middlemen who smuggled it across the Turkish-Syrian border. Western intelligence officials have alleged that Turkey is turning a blind eye to a flourishing trade that strengthens the Islamic State group, and Secretary of State John Kerry has called on Turkey to do more to stem the trade. Analysts estimate that the Islamic State group gets up to $3 million a day in revenue from oil fields seized in Iraq and Syria.

But in about two dozen interviews, Turkish authorities, smugglers and vendors along Turkey's 900-kilometer border with Syria paint a remarkably similar picture: Oil smuggling was a booming business until about six months ago, when Turkish authorities ramped up a multi-layered crackdown that has significantly disrupted the illicit trade. Many of those interviewed, including Sevda, gave only their first name or asked for anonymity out of fear of reprisals by authorities or smugglers, who believe that reports in the Turkish news media led to the crackdown.

Turkish authorities say they have beefed up border controls, arrested dozens of smugglers and have gone after consumers with an extensive stop-and-search operation on Turkish highways where fuel tanks are tested for smuggled oil. The AP accompanied police on a tour of anti-smuggling measures in Hatay province, which has been the main smuggling conduit, observing new checkpoints and border patrols.

Turkey says it seized nearly 20 million liters of oil at the border in the first eight months of this year, about four times as much as in the same period the year before, while illicit fuel discovered on consumers has dropped considerably.

just wonderful.

thousands dead
billions $$ wasted