Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

from law enforcement, not from the protesters.

He stated a fact, there were businesses looted and burned by a few protesters, granted, most were peaceful, but when businesses get looted and burned, even if by a few, it tends to carry over to the rest of the protesters.

speaking of 'facts'.) Or were you not paying attention during the protests? I mean, even President Obama spoke out about it. And by 'it,' I don't mean violent protesters, I mean violent cops.

it was a splinter group of people from the main protest group.
And what does Pres. Obama's statement have to do with a small of out of control protesters looting and burning businesses?

My local newspaper must have missed that fact.

to be honest I dont know if he did or if the officer just shot him in cold blood but one thing is certain it shows that they really should start equipping the officers in this country with those cameras that record everything that is said or done by both the officers and the people they interact with to make determining what happened easier in the future.

Especially since there is a preponderance of witnesses who saw no such thing. Maybe he assaulted Brown and he tried to defend himself.

Amazing how some people will bend over backwards to give a White officer an out but will do everything in their power to smear victims in these cases

not a single one of us was there is all.
Though there is alot of evidence that is making it lean towards the officer being in the wrong.

We've had multiple witness none of whom knew each other or talked to each other said Michael Brown turned around and was shot several more times as he was FALLING DOWN.

believed it though and even if I did believe it my belief is immaterial.
As for the witnesses *shrug* witnesses are just very unreliable its why I really wish one of them had taken a video of the incident as it would make it a hell of alot easier to determine what happened exactly and when and if Brown did appear to charge the officer or if the officer is lying through his teeth.

He's needs to make up a story. Why do you ignore eye witnesses?
The witnesses are not unreliable they all say the same thing not having met each other.
If the shooter wasn't a cop the witnesses would have talked to a grand jury and we would be having a murder trial on our hands. As it is statements like you make are to prepare us for the officer murderer walking!

There was only one shooter. No misidentification.
You take the cops word, a person who should be facing a murder charge but not people who saw what happened, who all give the same testimony without ever communicating or hearing each other's testimony because of the chance they all are mistaken in exactly the same way.
Give me a break!

"Research shows that the human mind is not like a tape recorder; we neither record events exactly as we see them, nor recall them like a tape that has been rewound. Instead, witness memory is like any other evidence at a crime scene; it must be preserved carefully and retrieved methodically, or it can be contaminated."

Edit: Its also why you cant just rely on the word of someone that something happened even the word of a police officer and instead you need evidence that corroborates it and its why I wish there was some video of what happened in this incident as it would make it alot easier to determine what happened rather than relying on memory of people who saw some of it.

without knowing what the others said I'm pretty sure they know what they saw and it happened as they said it did.

then they need to determine what if any of their memory has been contaminated.
If they dont do that and do it well it will leave open the ground down the road for an appeal.

but now they refuse to wear them. This is a very corrupt police dept.

How about sitting down with his family in a few weeks eating turkey.

But at least he would be alive. He would probably be awaiting trial for the store theft/robbery and assaulting an officer which they most likely would have arrested him for whether he was guilty or not or even if the officer initiated the altercation in the car, it's how the cops CYA. Or he might would possibly be out in bail right now with a monitoring device.

the owner was upset that he opened a full box of cigars to buy a partial box, that's all. He paid for what he had.

Just saying.

the store owner said a customer is who reported it to the police in the article.

deserve to be shot for it, and Wilson -- at a minimum -- should be fired for using excessive force and endangering innocent people in the neighborhood by blasting away. Wilson could have waited for backup. Prosecutor should have charged him. And police should have released any evidence they have such as photos of Wilson, number of shots, etc.

But, I don't think Brown is totally innocent in this.

course, none of us are 'totally innocent.' Doesn't mean we should all be subject to extra-judicial execution by mobile death squad operating under color of the law.

reports tell us that Brown did NOT do anything to Wilson. The police have had ample time to concoct evidence against Brown to "justify" his shooting by Wilson.

So they don't count ......

It's not necessary to make Brown a saint in order to support charges against Wilson. In fact, ignoring possibly inconvenient facts or evidence could make any prosecution more difficult or create unreasonable expectations among the public.

The are a number of scenarios, some more plausible than others, where Brown's conduct would warrant arrest, particularly in light of the video in the bodega, but that Wilson's actions were nevertheless highly excessive and well outside of procedure.

I still have not seen any robbery charges related to the incident in the store. It was mighty shaky as an indictment of Brown. He was not doing anything violent or threatening at the time of his death. Just because some months have passed doesn't mean people are going to forget the first witness reports. Just because a pig-officer like wilson comes along and tells a person to get out of the street in a threatening and disrespectful way and Brown may have smarted off DOES NOT MEAN HE DESERVED TO DIE by "wilsons highly excessive and well outside of procedure" actions.

During Martin's trial I remember these types of attempts at painting the perp-zimpig as somewhat justified in accosting Trayvon Martin because he looked suspicious(hoodie wearing and black).. And with zimpigs behavior(s) post trial I can believe the confrontation was threatening and highly disrespectful.

It is a known fact that cops in Ferguson had/have NO RESPECT for minorities. You can try to slyly blame the victim here in his own death, won't wash. BS.

is not blaming the victim, and most certainly is not a defense of Wilson. As I stated, even if Wilson had a legitimate reason to stop Brown, that does not necessarily mean that lethal force was warranted, and the apparent facts thus far appear to indicate that Wilson's conduct might have amounted to a veritable execution.

I also don't understand you allegations concerning robbery charges. As Brown is deceased, no charges are possible. Moreover, very minor accomplice charges against his friend now would only inflame an already tenuous situation in the community and would be imprudent.

If you feel the need to excuse or contest any facts that might shine a negative light on Brown as necessary to condemn Wilson, it speaks more about you and your perceptions of even a federal investigation than about the actual facts and circumstances of the incident, and does nothing to aid in the effective prosecution of Wilson or eliminate racial disparities in the criminal justice system.

I also believe that the piecemeal release of information from all sides, much of it unconfirmed, it not helpful, and has the potential to create very unreasonable expectations concerning either a state or federal prosecution. It, too, reminds me of the Zimmerman case. The information discussed on the news and by the Martin family attorneys created one impression, but after watching the actual trial, I thought I must have been living in an alternate universe.

I believe that either a state or federal trial of Wilson is very likely, despite the pessimism of many on DU. I am eager to hear the testimony of all relevant witness and view the forensic evidence presented in a cogent manner and subject to cross-examination. In fact, in some ways, I would prefer a federal trial in order to diminish allegations of a cover-up or pro-police bias.

which I presume will include a court reporter's transcripts of the testimony. While the transcripts cannot capture tone of voice or facial expression and body language, they undoubtedly contain a good deal of information from witnesses that have spoken to the media and those that haven't. The best way to clear the air here, though, would be a fair trial with attorneys and a judge all with considerable experience in murder trials.

My experience with respect to the Zimmerman trial parallels yours, except that I remembered early references to a witness who saw quite a bit of the end of the fight from his condo and called the police. That witness did not come forward to be interviewed by the media, and I thought that his testimony would be very important for the case. And it was.

Here, there was a leak from the grand jury testimony of someone who did not speak to the media, and whose recollection is apparently a bit different from many witnesses who did speak immediately. There also was a smart phone video with contemporaneous running commentary from a younger fellow who may have had a different impression of Brown's movement toward the officer. Their testimony may be important to the Brown case in the same way that the condo owner's testimony was important in the Zimmerman case.

Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 08:46 AM - Edit history (1)

discredited if I remember correctly. Black witnesses, from the beginning of this murder of Brown, were shown no respect and not believed by many members of society here and elsewhere, unless their testimony was corroborated by someone white. The last individual witnessing Michael Browns murder was an individual with his hands in the air wondering why in the hell wilson murdered Brown. He was white so I hope that's in some kind of 'leak', The only leaks I've seen are the ones designed to give the state sanctioned murderer wilson a get out of jail free card and a free pass for murder. Emotional? You better believe it.

I find it laughable, the cherry picking of witness testimony by so many that justifies state sanctioned murder of minorities that has gone on with this murder of an unarmed man. Sick is more like it.

My point is that not all witnesses come forward and talk to the media. Some witnesses do not want themselves and what they say splashed all over the newspapers, TV and the internet. Instead, they call the police or the prosecutor and volunteer information. Those witnesses do testify before a grand jury, if one is called, and the trial jury, if the prosecution or defense calls them. In my mind, all witness testimony counts, not just that of those who talk to the media.

Last edited Sun Oct 19, 2014, 12:04 PM - Edit history (2)

any time someone tries to grab a cop's gun (if that really was the case), bad stuff is going to happen.

We only have Wilsons word for this

How does a cop, in his car, find himself confronting a pedestrian and somehow "he struggled over his gun"? See how easy it is to pretend to punch someone "repeatedly", and then go after their pretend gun, while they are sitting in a car.

It doesn't sound easy.

Oh, wait, the cops will say "he was six four so...''

BULLSHIT!

street. The cop will say that Brown came over to the SUV, leaned into an open driver's side window, attacked the cop and went for the cop's gun.

BULLSHIT!! Do you see the mental gymnastics y'all have to do to make the cop's story make sense?

Already in the cops hand?

Laying around on the seat?

In it's holster?

If the cop was just busting Brown's chops for walking in the street, why would he have his gun out and available for "taking"?

It seems to me that we are expected to believe that black men behave irrationally at all times. And that they value their lives less than others. I am tired of paranoid cops who are always in fear for their lives. They are not the only ones who have families waiting on them. And the he went for my gun bullshit is bullshit. No explaination of why he got out of the car and chased that boy down and pumped his face full of lead. There will come a time when people are so afraid of cops that they behave just like them when they see one. Trigger happy.

I don't believe word of it, or anything else a white policeman in that town says.

Officer has had months to come up with this story.

I do not believe him.

No one will ask me!

These tests were done by the FBI who is run by the justice department.

This is Holders FBI, if we can't trust that we are out of options.

by one of their officers..never

and tho he clearly murdered his lover, he was only indicted on manslaughter charges

<<<<<<<<<<<

In return for an indictment charging Mr. Putnam with manslaughter instead of murder, Mr. Runyon received the agent's admission that he strangled Ms. Smith on June 8, 1989, in a quarrel over the baby they were expecting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

whole point being the fbi covers for their own just like the local pd does

I'll delete.

it kind of gives me hope that there are some things the fbi will not tolerate about its "own"

similar thing happened few years ago in my small town, a police Sargent was raping woman he had come across at work...i was really proud of our cops for busting him!!

As disturbing as it is, people do in fact make up blatant lies in order to stir up trouble and portray violent criminals caught in the act as victims.

Has gotten to the point where I do not believe anyone anymore. Sad

You a volunteer with Amnesty? Me, too.

Wilson dragging Brown into the car and shooting him?

If an angry person was holding me with one hand and pointing a gun at me with the other, you better believe that I would go for the gun.

that Wilson grabbed Brown, by the throat then the shirt, and pulled Brown towards the vehicle and Brown pulled away as a shot was fired.

Why was the original police report practically blank?
Why did Wilson take so long to come up with his story?

The truth is relatively easy. Lies take work.

eom

Telling him to STFU. In general, nothing good can happen if you spill your story and don't get anything in exchange for it.

One bad thing for us is that all these witnesses have their stories out there. There's minor differences between them, and they will be recounted slightly differently after time has passed. A defense lawyer will have a field day discrediting these people.

The 13-shot murder, or however many it was, happened out of the car.

Seems the cop needed to show who was boss by repeatedly fire his gun into a man with his hands raised.

I repeat, that murder didn't happen in the car.

And please, don't try the "he charged the cop who was firing live rounds at him" argument. Nobody is that stupid.

Some are stupid enough to believe it though.

Such BS...

Wait, so the Mike is running away and the cop says "stop or I'll shoot" and when Mike does stop and turn around, he gets shot. WTF was he supposed to do?

I don't get it.

And this guy will walk, watch...

I didn't know

I don't want anyone indicted or convicted because a group of people want revenge instead of justice. If he is guilty, he is guilty, if not, than he is not.

over by a very pro-police county DA, Bob McCulloch, who has been making numerous pro-police statements to the media and who will have to work with local law enforcement after this is over. IOW, we're nowhere near determining Wilson's guilt or innocence. Right now, we're merely waiting to see whether the Grand Jury finds probable cause to indict the killer cop.

If you don't think blacks in the region suspect that McCulloch is 'throwing the case,' then you haven't been following the story very closely.

But go ahead and call my prediction 'bullshit,' if it somehow makes you feel better or more virtuous.

But I don't want an indictment just to keep people from rioting.

to appoint a Special Prosecutor with no ties to local law enforcement.

McCulloch has thus far refused to recuse himself, a demonstration of hubris befitting the classical Greeks in its breathlessness. I'm frankly surprised that Obama and Holder haven't landed on McCulloch like a ton of bricks to step down. (For all I know, they've tried. See 'hubris'.)

But it's like the looting, breaking a law because a law was broken solves nothing.

outside time and circumstance. But 'law' is a historically conditioned and contingent entity. If McCulloch wants residents of St. Louis County to respect his 'law,' then he should avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest and recuse himself. Otherwise, his 'law' is only as legitimate as the bayonets he can summon to enforce it.

Gov. Nixon has explicitly refused to do so, and the decision has even received support from Sen. McCaskill. Note that McCulloch. Nixon and McCaskill are all Democrats.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/browns-parents-renew-call-special-prosecutor

Besides the fact that there appears no actual legal basis to remove McCulloch (and hence the petitions, requests and demands), Obama and Holder have no power to remove McCulloch or direct the course of the state investigation and potential trial. If they believe the state investigation is tainted, the DOJ is free to pursue a federal civil rights indictment, totally independent of the state proceedings.

In any event, the fact that McCulloch has not withdrawn is hardly surprising. He is the duly elected District Attorney with a long and distinguished career. Dealing with the Wilson matter is his job. District Attorneys, regardless of party or jurisdiction, rarely if ever voluntarily step aside absent an unequivocal legal basis that would mandate such action. The check on these elected prosecutors is generally the governor and independent federal authorities.

appoint a Special Prosecutor until and unless McCulloch FIRST recuses himself.

Look, long after this case has been put to rest (assuming, of course, it is), McCulloch has to work with local law enforcement. His personal history aside -- white police officer father killed in line of duty by black man -- there is NO WAY that McCulloch can go after Wilson with the same measure of aggressiveness with which he or his staff would pursue John Q. Public accused of the same offense. Were McCulloch to puruse Wilson aggressively, he would run the risk of earning the enmity of the very law enforcement personnel he has to work with daily.

In cases like these, it is not enough merely to avoid conflicts of interest. When the entire legitimacy of the system is in question, one must go the extra mile to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. That lesson appears to be lost on McCulloch and the local power brokers.

If you recall any article or other citation detailing how the the governor's power is in fact limited until the voluntary recusal of a district attorney, I would be very interested in reviewing it.

In any event, given the inherent level of distrust of the state authorities, at this point I would rather see a federal indictment and trial to avoid any issues of bias or related malfeasance.

am only writing from a layperson's perspective and understanding. My understanding is that the federal authorities do not have any jurisdiciton over murder and homicide, those being reserved to the state. The feds can, as I understand it, prosecute Wilson for civil rights violations.

There should be some 'law' to parallel Godwin's Law to the effect that any time one wants a link to some data, one is unable to find the link

That said, I did find an article that references the conundrum of which I spoke. To wit, without a 'state of emergency,' Nixon has no statutory authority to replace McCulloch absent McCulloch's first stepping down voluntarily:

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/09/ferguson_protesters_special_prosecutor_in_michael_brown_case_will_restore_trust_peace.php

The above article implies that Nixon raised the previously declared state of emergency, thereby robbing himself of the power to appoint a Special Prosecutor to replace McCulloch.

You might very well be correct about the requirement of some conditions precedent necessary before Nixon can appoint a special prosecutor. However, Nixon himself appears to have willingly surrendered his authority, and nothing appears to prevent him from declaring some other new "state of emergency" to provide the necessary power to appoint another prosecutor.

Despite the pessimism of any here, I still think a indictment will issue from the state grand jury with at least a charge of manslaughter, if not murder. Regardless, McCulloch has stated all transcripts and evidence will be released upon the conclusion of the investigating grand jury. It will be interesting to read the actual sworn accounts of all witnesses, including those who may have not spoken with the press. Wilson's grand jury testimony and the forensic evidence should also be most interesting.

After the Zimmerman mess, and my own experience as an attorney (albeit a commercial litigation lawyer), I've developed a great deal of skepticism about the piecemeal release of unconfirmed evidence, regardless of which side it benefits, and I practically disregard all press commentary. The actual evidence often does not parallel the media narrative.

How many unrelated witnesses does it take to say there was no struggle for the jury to understand the pig is a lying sack?

About the same amount of "unrelated witnesses" who saw a sandwich that magically morphed into a stolen semi-automatic pistol that was fired at a cop until it jammed.

Johnson from the very beginning claimed that Wilson reached out and grabbed Brown by the neck, dragging him in through the window of the SUV. If Wilson was "pinned in his vehicle" it was by his own actions.

a commenter at the Times' site made the salient point that St. Louis County DA McCulloch is going to have to work with the St. Louis cops after the Brown case is disposed of and so, the thinking goes, he won't seek an indictment against Wilson the way he woudl against John Q. Public in order to maintain good relations with the St. Louis-county policing agencies and their staffs.

This simply underlines why it is vital that McCulloch recuse himself now and allow Governor Nixon to appoint a Special Prosecutor, one without ties to local law enforcement.

Is it likely that a police officer could reach out of his SUV window with his left hand and grab a 6'3" 290 lb football player by the neck and drag him in through the window? No. Particularly if one considers that none of the autopsies done have mentioned the damage that doing so would have caused to the neck.

Is it likely that an experienced officer would WANT to drag someone through the SUV window and give that person easy reach access to the officers duty belt and gun while having ZERO control over the person's hands? No. That would be the LAST thing an experienced officer would do.

Is it plausible that Michael Brown somehow attacked the officer and reached for his gun... hmmm... thats a tough one. We dont know exactly what his actions were. We DO know that both sides of this story are claiming that a scuffle at the SUV door did indeed happen. And certainly the findings reported in this story support that Michael Brown, for whatever undetermined reason, did indeed have at least his hands inside the police SUV.

now... if its not very likely that the police officer would WANT to drag Michael Brown through the window or would even be capable of doing so... one must start to look for other explanations.

Darren Wilson went into hiding for weeks after this happened. We didn't even know his name until almost a week after the fact. If he had nothing to hide, why didn't he come out with his side of the story then?

Sorry, too much of Wilson's story does not pass the smell test.

Last edited Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:23 PM - Edit history (1)

people, in this country, has smelled to high heaven for so long, I doubt anyone who wants to justify this murder, as many do, would be able to smell what their defense of wilson is, BS.

Darren Wilson looks to be around of similar height. Tall man. (not challenging or disagreeing with your point, just saying.)

That was toe to toe - he is a big beast of a guy.

Granted if anything comes of this - he'll pig out, gain 100 pounds and go all doughy (as Zimpig did)- to make himself look wimpy and weak.

But based on that pic upthread - he's a beast. And a beast who had a gun.

Police always say they feel threatened as the 'excuse' to kill. This officer was off duty & in personal SUV? It's to easy for an officer to 'create a threat'.


States should make their police departments go back to 2 officer teams. If they're off duty or out of district, see a 'crime' the officer should call the local police if it's not an emergency.

No he wasnt off duty.

Ask yourself. If that was YOUR white son would it still be "justified" in your mind?

Brown was shot for walking in the street while black. A perceived fear of an individual does NOT give you the right or authority to kill them in cold blood in broad daylight and then desecrate the body by leaving it in the road for 4 hours. Imagine being his parent standing by watching that.

As a white woman, it shames me that anyone could think this killing was justified in any way. It was not!

the fact is.. the lives of young black men have been discounted and sold cheap .. mYTHS Lies and dirty tricks.. I see this through two lenses.. the one of a young white child having grown up in segregated Alabama and hating what I saw.. to an adult who now knows we are Cherokee and were not told due to my family, who were Tsalagi , having to pass as white so they would not be lynched.. Nah , I ..am sick of white people.. may look white but I denounce those ancestors.. they crawled out of caves in the Causcus and have been at the pillaging bit ever since.. "History of white people" Nell Irvin Painter
MY Norman side killed and raped for 1000 years.. and you want to tell me I should debate this poor mans guilt.. he was murdered.. pure and simple.. STUPID white people the bane of humanities existence..I know..some of them were my ancestors

and I put rob in parantheseis because the legal definition of it fits what Brown did. He went into a store attempted to steal something, and when confronted by the owner he made the mistake of threatening the owners life, which by legal definition makes it a robbery when you go into a place of business to take something with no intention of paying for it, and then threatening the clerk...

Im certainly not defending the Police in this matter but I do want to point out that Brown was not simply innocently enough walking down the street minding his own business having done nothing wrong....

The store owner was upset that Michael opened a box of cigars to buy only 1. He PAID for the cigar. I discount everything else you say because you're only interested in smearing a young man who is dead only because he was walking while black.

Im certainly not above being wrong, and ill be the first to admit, from what I had learned about the incident is that the young man went into the store, took something that didn't belong to him, was confronted by the clerk and threatened the clerk while walking out of the store.

I just remember my cousin was charged with robbery because he went into a convenience type store, took something without paying, was caught, tried to leave and when police showed up, instead of charging him with theft, he was charged with robbery because he had no means to pay for the item that he stole on him, as in no cash to pay for what he took.

Im 25 years old & if im wrong im wrong, ill be the first to admit it and man up to it.... if what Michael did was wrong he was wrong, but he certainly didnt deserve to die for what took place on that evening, and I hope you dont vilify me for being wrong about the facts of the case, I think in theory thats a decent example of this case, young men are bound to screw up or do the wrong things in their youths, but NO ONE deserves to die for it and Michael most certainly should still be alive today

is that your only focus on wrong doing is squarely aimed at Mr. Brown. From your post, it doesn't seem to enter your worldview that Michael did nothing wrong and that maybe, just maybe the root of this whole thing is an out of control cop who is part of an out of control department that sees the Black residents of Ferguson as nothing more than animals.

You say you were misinformed about the situation and then go on to recite a story about your cousin which seems to be an attempt to buttress your opinion that Michael did something wrong. What about the cop? Was he on some drugs? Why did he blow Michaels head off after he ran? Seems to me an impassioned observer would see just as much wrong or more in the officers actions yet your post focuses on Mr Brown and Mr Brown alone.

wealthy whites don't have to be taxed."

Otherwise I'm in full agreement with your post and your critique of the post to which you respond.

in which I have stated time and time again should not have happened regardless of the circumstances of the situation...

dont degrade me

Do you have a link for this?

a customer did, after seeing altercation. There was no theft. Can't find a link but I read several times the owner was upset Brown opened a big box to buy a few. Brown paid for what he had.

When I was 5 years old I stole a plastic chicken that laid little eggs. No one shot me dead.

n/t

he can come up with?

That there are posters on this site willing to believe and defend these lies just as there were posters willing to defend and believe Zimmerman.

the saddest part of this is that a young man of some as-yet unknown potential was robbed of his life really for almost nothing at all.

Mike Brown easily could have been one of my students had he come of age some 30 years earlier when I taught many St. Louis-area students in Kansas City. So I take his passing a bit more personally than some here might.