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tomm2thumbs

(13,297 posts)
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 05:20 PM Oct 2014

Virginia judge: Police can demand a suspect unlock a phone with a fingerprint

Source: Arstechnica

The ruling calls into question the privacy of some iPhone 5S, 6, and 6 Plus users who have models equipped with TouchID, the fingerprint sensor that allows the user—and ideally only the user—to unlock the phone. ...if a suspect simply uses TouchID to open their phone, police could have a window to take advantage of that when apprehending them.

The ruling is interesting because it draws into relief the legal difference between a person's identity and their knowledge. The Fifth Amendment protects people from being forced to witness against themselves, and last year when Apple's TouchID fingerprint sensor was announced, Ars' sister site Wired noted that fingerprints may not have the same protection as passcodes. “A communication is 'testimonial' only when it reveals the contents of your mind,” Wired wrote. “We can’t invoke the privilege against self-incrimination to prevent the government from collecting biometrics like fingerprints, DNA samples, or voice exemplars.

Read more: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/10/virginia-judge-police-can-demand-a-suspect-unlock-a-phone-with-a-fingerprint/




Not to mention that there is a easy hack to use a fingerprint to unlock iPhones with touch id. Moral of the story may be: ALWAYS use a passcode if you want privacy.

Someone also suggested in comments that Apple should add a 'distress finger' option whereas a user would use a non-typical finger on their phone to set it immediately to 'password-protected' in the instance where they did not want to open the contents of the phone to others, but are being compelled to press their print to the sensor.

All very interesting.

Some more reading at Macrumors
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/


18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Virginia judge: Police can demand a suspect unlock a phone with a fingerprint (Original Post) tomm2thumbs Oct 2014 OP
I may be dumb on this one but it seems to go against the Supreme court order. diabeticman Oct 2014 #1
We Need To Update Protections billhicks76 Oct 2014 #2
That was my immediate thought Travelman Oct 2014 #4
There is a difference though as the other case they couldnt compel you to provide a password cstanleytech Oct 2014 #11
And in the future ... Babel_17 Oct 2014 #3
/. Babel_17 Oct 2014 #5
Bio-metrics are not covered by the 5th Amendment. Passwords are. Blue State Bandit Oct 2014 #6
I haven't read the opinion; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2014 #8
what's the difference Man from Pickens Oct 2014 #12
Knowledge vs a physical item NYC Liberal Nov 2014 #17
Regarding the latter part of your post: If you shut the phone down Mutiny In Heaven Oct 2014 #7
What if.. reACTIONary Oct 2014 #9
I'd say that's fair game as long as the search was conducted legally Mutiny In Heaven Oct 2014 #10
I'd say so also... reACTIONary Nov 2014 #18
Using the letter of the law to destroy the spirit: The Cancervative Way. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #13
I know nothing about iPhones, but I wonder if there is a way to disable the fingerprint scanner davidpdx Nov 2014 #14
This may sound stupid, but how would the police know which finger you used for the print? KansDem Nov 2014 #15
They ask you. Orsino Nov 2014 #16

Travelman

(708 posts)
4. That was my immediate thought
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:08 PM
Oct 2014

I'm going to have to study this more to see what the reasoning is, and whether it's sound. At first blush, I don't think that it is.

cstanleytech

(26,332 posts)
11. There is a difference though as the other case they couldnt compel you to provide a password
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 07:35 PM
Oct 2014

but in this case its your fingerprint and its being treated little more than as a key which is why if you or anyone else wants to really lock their device then dont use any face or fingerprint unlocking and instead use a pin and or password.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
3. And in the future ...
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:01 PM
Oct 2014

And in the future the phone will detect your stress level and ask if you are being coerced. It will know if you are forced to lie. Though this would be a nightmare if things escalated to torture. It could be like being handcuffed to a briefcase, but without the key.

Another tactic against criminals would be to use your pinky if things were safe, your index finger if you were being forced at gunpoint. The index finger one would lead to a generic, fake, user interface.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
5. /.
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:26 PM
Oct 2014
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/10/31/2139211/virginia-court-leos-can-force-you-to-provide-fingerprint-to-unlock-your-phone

Interesting logic. Pressuring one to give "the password" is akin to getting one to say that they have it; Which could be an admission of criminal possession. A fingerprint isn't an admission of anything.

Though I wonder if a lawyer will argue that the detection algorithm of the phone isn't that rigorous. It's not like an FBI expert and false positives are possible. If that gets stipulated then it could be argued that putting ones finger on the phone is like volunteering to stand in a line up. That's something your lawyer will often say not do do.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
8. I haven't read the opinion; but ...
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 07:16 PM
Oct 2014

If the purpose of the unlock is to establish identity, then that would be correct; but if the purpose of the unlock is to read what is in the phone, without a warrant, that would be a violation of the 4th Amendment.

 

Man from Pickens

(1,713 posts)
12. what's the difference
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 07:44 PM
Oct 2014

between being forced to cooperate in collecting evidence against you, and being compelled to testify against oneself?

Fifth Amendment is pretty weak if it doesn't prevent this tactic.

NYC Liberal

(20,137 posts)
17. Knowledge vs a physical item
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 01:44 PM
Nov 2014

Police can't force you to answer questions, but they can compel you to hand over the keys to your safe.

Of course, it's trivially easy to prevent this if the police want in to your iPhone. Either restart/turn off the phone before the cops get it (after a restart your passcode is required because the passcode is what decrypts your phone), or if they do get it and try to force you to use your finger, attempt to unlock using 2 or 3 fingers you haven't enrolled. After 2-3 tries Touch ID is disabled and you're forced to enter the passcode.

Mutiny In Heaven

(550 posts)
7. Regarding the latter part of your post: If you shut the phone down
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:56 PM
Oct 2014

the password is required when it's turned back on. I really have mixed feelings on this - obviously if the man really did attempt to strangle his girlfriend, I hope he is convicted, but with forced self-incrimination prohibited the onus should be on the authorities to retrieve whatever data they require. I understand the judge's argument in passing this ruling, but if the fingerprint is serving purely as a password in relation to the phone then I believe it should be subject to the same protections.

Mutiny In Heaven

(550 posts)
10. I'd say that's fair game as long as the search was conducted legally
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 07:24 PM
Oct 2014

That would be found evidence rather than forced self-incrimination.

reACTIONary

(5,788 posts)
18. I'd say so also...
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 06:37 PM
Nov 2014

...and while it is not exactly the same, it does seem close to the case of the fingerprint.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
14. I know nothing about iPhones, but I wonder if there is a way to disable the fingerprint scanner
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 12:42 AM
Nov 2014

Then unlocking it could only be done with a password.

I like the idea someone said about a distress finger. Usually when you do the set up it asks you to use a particular finger. How hard would it be to set up a program to have a secondary finger scan for emergencies that would not only lock down your phone, but notify someone you care of where you are? I can't believe it would be that difficult.

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
15. This may sound stupid, but how would the police know which finger you used for the print?
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 06:55 AM
Nov 2014

Why not "use" another finger than the one used to set up access?

I'm trying, Officer, I'm trying! It just won't work!
Try another finger!!!


I mean, if you have ten fingers, would the police require you go through all ten?

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
16. They ask you.
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 01:21 PM
Nov 2014

And add a charge of false statements if you mislead them.

The right to remain silent should be exercised. And phone operating systems ought to evolve such that they don't directly give away the security method.

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