We have a lot of legal gun owners in America.

It all hinges on can he tell the difference between right and wrong. If the tried to hide or escape, that indicates he knew he did wrong and is legally sane.

The Jeffrey Dahmer case made this clear to me. Nobody could be crazier, but he was also legally sane.

That makes perfect sense. When I first saw the headline I thought WTF?

The first report has been ripped apart by many experts, it seems to be very flawed as it concluded that he was paranoid schizofrenic and basically unable to function. This is obviously wrong because of what he did.

It is tempting however to wish that he was declared insane and just locked up in a high security asylum. This is something he desperately does not want to happen, as he feels his "message" would suffer.

Thus no one is ever "Clinically Sane". The issue for the court was similar to cases in the US, is the Defendant sane enough to assist in his own defense? If the answer to that question is NO, then no trial can be held.

On the other hand, if he is ruled to be sane enough to assist in his own defense, he can still be ruled insane at the time of the crime.

This is to take into consideration that a person can be insane, and yet be able to direct his defense, i.e. a person can believe he MUST kill all people who are using Cellphone to save them from being eaten by the monster in the Cell Phone (Which would make him or her insane, for it is clear such a person has no concept of right or wrong when it comes to killing a person) BUT can talk to his lawyer and discuss the case when the defendant did kill a person using a cell phone.

Yes, perfectly insane people can often assist they lawyer in the defense of their case. Thus this decision is NOT a ruling that the Defendant is sane, but that he can assist his attorney in defending himself from the charge of murder.

He seemed pretty sane to me. Evil but sane.

Fry him. imho.

When Ted Bundy was executed, I had a disturbing fear: What if the the reincarnationists got it right? Was Bundy really executed? Or did his evil spirit just find a way to escape?

limpyhobbler

That is the difference between the rest - and the civilized nations you know... We doesn't execute our prisoners.. We tuck them away hoping to be able to re-integrate them into the rest when time comes.. Even tho I doubt mr Breivik would anytime soon be able to re-connect with the rest...

He might be sane - but indeed evil, but should live out his life, in a prison cell, contemplate the fact that the rest of the world, doesn't share his view of the world.. And also that what he wanted, to take hold as a "over-king" never managed to be.... He might never admit to it, but I'm pretty sure, inside he would, when time come, regret what he did, or at least, the total failure of him... That would bite for as long as he live.... And that could be into his 70s, or 80s if luck strike him enough...

Diclotican

It's not too bad. Executing people, even those convicted of heinous crimes, does nothing to help justice, and only serves to make a more violent society.


We can be better than that - and we should be better than that.

How about for Hitler? Would you support a death penalty for him?

Hitler was never brought to justice, so I'm not sure what your point there is.

And we put him on trial for his actions and found him guilty. I was just wondering if you thought the death penalty should be used in that case. I don't really have a point, I was just wondering what you thought about it. I think you already answered, you are against it in all cases. That's cool. I'm also against it mostly, except for very rare extreme cases.

fear of multiculturalism, anger at the government, interest in national purity and authoritarianism, love of weapons and paramilitary posturing, resistance to globalization.

Fear, hate, rage.


Right Wing Repuke.

pampango

Well, you must be insane, to do what he did, and have no regret for it.. Or a perfect Psychopath to boot....

Anyway, if he was to be find sane, and therefore would stand trial as every other prisoner, he could face life (who is 21 year) and then some prison time in what is called "Protective custody" where he could end up living the rest of his life.. If it is danger for him, and for the people around him for his actions.... And after blowing up most of the government offices, and murder 77 youths I would absolutely say that he is a danger to the outside world... He have never shown any regrets for what he did, not even when talking to his legal team.. To me, that alone looks like he might BE insane, because if he had been sane, he would have had regrets for what he did..

This findings, is interesting in a way, because it looks like he might have managed to play around with some of norway's greatest psychiatric minds. But is it the same as he is SANE in the term that he could be let out of prison after 21 year?: I seriously doubt it, as he still Will be a danger to the country, after sitting inside for 21 year..

When it came to the right wing kooks, who might came to Norway, to "show support".. First of all, they have to manage to came into the country, as I doubt the custom police would love to have a lot of right wing extremist inside the country.. For months at a time.. And the communication between custom police in Scandinavia, and other places is rather good, so I guess our custom police would be advised to when to expect the hooligans.. And detain them - and ask them to leave the country. That is something Norway have been doing before with people Norway deems to be not welcome in the country... But of course, we have enough "kooks" here in Norway, who have supported his ideas in many ways.. The Prison where hi is staying now, have controlled a lot of paper coming to mr Breivik, and there is some who support him, and his actions even in Norway...


Diclotican

crime against humanity. You mention that there are "kooks" inside of Norway, in addition to the nuts outside of your country who seem to support Breivik; is there a large xenophobic movement that sort of "primed" Breivik to commit the murders he did? What do the vast majority of people there think of such groups and how are people who are NOT Scandinavian treated over all in your country? I've always wondered about these things.

I am an African American of VERY mixed descent married to an Eastern European, (Bohemian Czech), and I've always been interested about how people who are different and who's skin colors are different from the majority of the people in any society are treated.

BTW, it so lovely to "meet" you on DU and I'm glad that you're here. Hope to read many more of your posts!

Ecumenist

I don't believe it exist to many "kooks" or right wing extremist in Norway, but we are a small country of just 5 million now - and even the small amount of extremist we do have, have implications for what it looks like.. Far Right is few in Norway.. But I do remember in the early 1990s it was a small segment of far rights who was rather active many places.. Specially in smaller places where it also was a lot of unemployment.. There could it kind off grow up a small segment of extreme rights, who for a while could be very active.. But it never was going anywhere as it often end up in "Personal conflicts" inside this neo-racist groups..

I believe, from what I know, that far right are not near the main stream they want to be. Even tho some have objections about the emigration community in Scandinavia, I still believe that most of us in Scandinavia (That be Denmark-Sweden-Norway) have not the same feelings, or at least the ones we know and have learned to like!.. But you also have to understood the history of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.. We have always been homogeneous, and the "tribal" ideal is rather strong in most of us.. The foreigner, specially when their skin colour is different can be "disturbing" for some.. But as we learn to know the "others" most of us accept them, even tho we "mumble" about the ones we doesn't know, and have not learned to like... Some cultures is also not that easy to get to know either.. And in both the emigration communites, and in the larger norwigian community, rasism exist, it is not just the norwigians who is openly rasist.... And that is sad, becouse I belive it to be wrong...

But it can also be that specially us Norwegians is not easy to get to know in the first place.. We tend to stick to "our selfs" that be in Norway, or outside of Norway.. But as an american I know said once.. Norwegians can be a pain in the ass to know - but when you get to know one, you have a friend for life... And it is maybe true also. We are not easy to get to know.... And that is maybe one of the reasons some foreign community have chosen not to interact to much with the country they are living in.. And I fear that is the biggest danger to make a country more whole, regardless of their skin colour or origin....

To be honest, I am not sure about why people of different skin is treated different in different places.. I think it all goes down to the "tribal-thing" who is as old as human kind itself... But we can learn to accept others, if we from young age is exposed to "the others" and learn to interact, and know each other better.. And it also goes down to how the parents act out... I know a person, who have two kids.. But who also is openly racist about others who have not his white skin colour.. I would LOVE to be there, if his daughter ever came home with a dark skinned boy, and say that she wanted to marriage him....

The Chezh republic have always been a ethical melting pot on its own.. All the way back to the dark ages, cultures and nations have traveled true, conquered and made lasting impression of the state of mind of most czechs.. And I also believe it made the Chezh Republic as it is today...

Oh, well I'm Norwegian as few - my ancestry here where I live goes all the way back to the mid 1300s... My ancestors was traveling to Asker (a county outside of Oslo, our Capital) right after the Black Death (1349) and they made a home for them selfs.. And have been here since... Not many can say that in Asker, that their ancestors goes all the way back to the mid 1300s...

I plan to stay here for as long as posible - hopefully we wil "bump" into eatch other somtimes down the road ..

Diclotican

There is no doubt that he will spend the rest of his life behind bars. Personally i am against the death sentence in all cases, but this case makes it tempting to change my mind.

I wonder what went on during the first evaluation, because they messed up completely by concluding that he was barely able to function in society. But he is obviously a very intelligent person.


I doubt that any right wingers would show up to support him. They would have their asses handed to them by other people, no doubt about that. There are people in Norway who claim to support him though, but they are mostly tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists /right wingers on the internet. And most of them are inspired by American web sites. This includes Breivik himself. And that is very ironic, that the very people who are fighting globalization are spreading their ideas in a way not possible without it.


(It is interesting that there will be a hoodie march in Oslo today in support of Travyon Martin btw. Says something about globalization too).


There will always be people who support evildoers, including women offering to marry them.

Lars77

I hope he Will never se the day that he is a free man... That would be unjust for the 77 murdered people who got killed, because He believed them to be a danger to the future....

Well, I'm also against the death penalty as an Principe.. but I have to admit, I also have been tempting to change my mind about it - in his case.. But our constitution put it into perspective.. You can not be punished by law made after the facts.. And therefore he could not be given the death penalty, if so the whole Stortinget (our Parliament) changed to use the death penalty right after the facts...

I am not sure what went wrong, in the first evaluation.. But it could be that the experts was trying their best - to make him insane, as it was the only way to "explain" what he did...

Some might stand up, before the cort and claim to support him, but the far right as a movement would not touch him with an long handed fork.. Mr Breivik is poison to their ideology, and even he claim to have support from extremist in UK and elsewhere, the fact is that he never had much of a support from them - and after he did what he did - I seriously doubt he got any support from the extremist.. On thing is to to do harm to one man, (they are often very god at attacking single ones who could not fight them) but to kill 77 youngsters are not often their cup of tea..

It is somewhat of an irony, that they have spreading their idea - by tools that for just 17 years ago, was not there... The modern use of the Net is not that old - at least not in Norway... I got my first dial up connection in 1997, and got hooked on it since

I doesn't know about the "hoodie march " in oslo today - that would be a wet thing, as it snows and rain in the whole area today.. It tells that no corner of the world are without reach anymore..

I agree.. I have never understood why some woman, tend to be inclined to "love" violent evildoers like Breivik.

Diclotican

Jury's opinion as to whether the person would commit the same offense again, if allowed free on parole later. The death penalty was not being used for some years and then some serial killers were quietly released, as they'd behaved very well while guarded.

First day they set foot outside the prison, they went on killing sprees. So the public once again supported the death penalty. But if they'd spent the effort to keep the killers in custody and still away from the public, if the people thought they could trust the government to keep them safe from the serial killers, the death penalty would stayed on the shelf and not used.

This is the problem we have here, the lack of funding and rehabilitation for those who could return to society and not be a danger to others. And a lot of people taking up jail space who were not a danger to the public, as sentencing is erratic.

I appreciate Norwegians be willing to fund a civilized society. Best wishes to all of you during this time of having to listen to all of this going to trial.

freshwest

I doubt he Will get out anytime soon - and I think, when the time come, and its time to se if he is able to be outside - without killing again, most Norwegians would either accept the fact, that he is a free man - or not accept it, and demand he to be in the custody of the government for the rest of the life... And as Texas experienced. As long as they was guarded they was vel-behaved.. But what happened when they was not that closely guarded - they got nuts and on a killing spree....

And that is the problem here.. Mr Breivik would act "nice" when under guard and lock and key, but what become of him, when he is outside again (if he ever do that) and as a free man?.. Will he then try to blow up other government offices, and kill another 77 persons?.. He have shown to be without any remorse for what he did.. And I doubt that he anytime soon, Will take responsible for what he really did, and at least try to make a stand of remorse..

Most Norwegians, have a strong trust in the government - and the abilities to protect the many, against the few.. Even tho the government, both on local, regional and national level sometimes fail it. The trust in the government is pretty high all over in Norway I guess.. And I believe that the possibility of him ever to be a free man to be small...

It is important to try rehabilitation for most people, as they one day Will get out in the world.. Many who had been in prisons for many years, is maybe not even able to exist outside of the prison, without rehabilitation, and the tools to live and work outside of the prisons... NGC have had some "inside the prison" series, where some of the inmates - who without doubt would be able to be living outside the system have talked about it - but where the lack of rehabilitation, and give them the right tools have made them people who goes in and out, and then in again.. Some is so known "Inside" the system that they can talk to the guards on a first name basis!!. Then you KNOW you have been inside for a long time..

Norway doesn't have death penalty on the books, and should not have it either I belive... And most European nations - without the exception of Belarus doesn't have death penalty on the books anymore... But I also believe it is important to be able to protect the community against the few who are a danger to everyone.. And I believe mr Breivik to be one of the very few, who should never be given the possibility of freedom again... He is a person, who deserve to sit in a cell, for the rest of his natural life because of what he did...

It would be interesting to se what become of the trial, and what we would know about the whole case. I believe that most of our newspapers - and other outlets would be all over it, for the whole case.. And I thing, we Will survive it all to - and go forward after closure of one of the biggest criminal acts in Norway after World War Two.

Diclotican

just evil

He's a very sick man, but not so sick that he can't be held accountable for his actions.

I think he´s been looking at the Red Army Faction, where independent copycat terrorist cells started up after the Baader-Meinhof crew was caught. Like he wanted to start a movement or something.

His uniform was just made up of fake medals and shit he got off ebay.

You only need to pass exams in Norwegian, history and social sciences to get a high school diploma after the age of 20. But I let it slide, and so I eventually decided to be ordinated in the Knights Templar instead.

...

The last ten years there has been no opportunity for relationships, due to the ordaining of the Knights Templar. I have not been sexually active after 22 years of age. I regard the body as a temple and will instead focus on long-term relationships.
http://www.document.no/2012/02/forensic-psychiatric-statement-anders-behring-breivik-iv/

Apparently he fucked hookers in Prague and used all kinds of stimulants so maybe his body wasnt such a temple after all. Reminds me of the 911 hijackers by the way.

Document.no is a right wing site who is now doing everything they can to distance themselves from ABB.

jakeXT

There was no such thing as "knights templar" he admitted to it before easter - that the whole affair with "knights templar" was something he had made up....

Well, i have better trust in our authorities than you might have in yours.. For the most part they work as they should, and have never really been into corruption for a long time.. And our Judges tend to be fair and balanced when it came to the business of putting people in prison for short or long time... And compared to what happened in the US, our prison system is like living in a Holiday resort of sorts.. Michael Moore did a segment for a movie, here in Norway - but he dared not to aire it for the american public, as it would have been way over the top for what most american would believe was possible... But it is posible of look at it, at you tube

Bush Jr., Cheney & Rumsfeld are no different from Andrew Breivik. Some get coddled, protected, live in luxury, others get tried and imprisoned.

Same crime--killing masses of innocents on purpose for gain, whether political or venal (oil). Breivik wanted to start a race war. Bush Jr. and co-mass killers Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted control of Mideast oil.

BOTH are insane.

Definition of insanity: Broken connection between themselves and all others. (And, by that, I mean literally "broken"--alienation so extreme that they can murder masses of innocents--directly or by proxy--without the slightest qualm.)

First of all, the solution is NOT killing them ("capital punishment&quot . The solution is, a) protection of the rest of us, of course, and b) APPROPRIATE punishment aimed at EDUCATING and ENLIGHTENING other human beings, if not the insane killer himself (if that is not possible).

So here was my fantasized punishment for Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld: Electronic anklets (so we know where they are), and bedpan duty in Veterans' hospitals for the rest of their lives.

And maybe a videocam of their bedpan duty piped into all high schools in the country and used in history, political science and other such classes as exemplars for discussions of unjust war and other such topics.

For Breivik? Immediate danger to those around him, so incarceration is a must. But simply stowing him away forever does little or nothing to educate anyone. I would design shackled service to minority communities (say, the Islamic community?) (I don't know--sweeping out the local mosque?) or to young people in general (say, emptying the latrines at that young peoples' outdoor camp--scene of his slaughter) but I wouldn't punish him if he wouldn't perform his duties. I would merely put a videocam on him (no sound*), piped into schools for use in civics lessons. ('Here's a man who killed 77 youngsters for their political views but who, though given the chance, won't do anything useful for society....'.)

*(Or maybe a videocam, without sound, that puts a bar over his face so he can't proselytize--and something similar with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and other psychotic killers.)

As for living situations for mass killers--aside from appropriate, useful and educational punishment--I would be merciful and healing. No cold cell in hell for them (or for anyone). Gardens (yes, garden duty included), music, activity/social life and, above all, psychiatric care (including alternative therapies), with the goal of giving them every chance to redeem their lives or save their souls (or however you want to put it). Surely in this high-tech world, we can design secure prisons for HEALING. It is simply NO USE punishing mass killers with isolation, hardship, brutality, bad food and lack of humane stimulation.

Though they may be more heinous than other murderers, and are certainly far, far more dangerous that most prisoners, they are still human beings with basically the same brains as they rest of us, capable of both good and evil. The brain is amazingly adaptable. That is how we have survived all these millennia. Humans CAN change. Change is our middle name. Change is written into our DNA. This is not a religious belief. It is a FACT. (And it is a fact that probably led to the religious belief in a "soul.&quot We are able to change--to adapt, to learn, to re-program ourselves, to creatively change our outlook, our circumstances, our (what used to be called) "fates." And this is WHY we should never, ever, give up on a human being. There is ALWAYS the chance that the person will change, because the person CAN change.

The chief problem in my solution--aside from utterly transforming the "prison-industrial complex" and the society that produced it--is security. How do you arrange for truly secure appropriate punishment? I mean, you wouldn't want Rumsfeld or Breivik, et al, getting freed by other insane people and spirited away as the new Nazi leader, to commit new atrocities. So, considerable thought and technology would have to go into monitoring and controlling them. We HAVE the resources to do this; we are just spending them on useless, evil projects like the "war on drugs," predator drone aircraft and more war. Talk about insane! Probably our whole government should be locked up, appropriately punished and given the chance to heal. Anyway, cost is NOT the issue. Nor is feasibility. The issue is human progress. Are we going to use our brains to evolve or are we NOT? We have the choice. Dogs don't.

I won't give my lecture on WHO is mostly incarcerated in our prison system (SEVENTY PERCENT--non-violent drug offenses--mostly poor people, mostly black or brown). (Yes, I will--there it is.) ALL of these people need to be freed and given some of the $30,000 or so per year that it costs us to imprison them! Give them rehab, counseling, medical care, job training, JOBS. Give them a start in a new life and STOP wasting this money to turn them into worse criminals for the profit of the rich and the fascist. (And, for godssakes, LEGALIZE drugs!)

I can't tell you how many cop shows I see on TV in which the cops threaten the "perps" with RAPE IN PRISON!

THAT's the transformation that needs to occur--the realization that imprisonment and its brutalities are WRONG--even for those who really did commit some awful crime. And, by God, if we're going to put a Breivik in jail, what about the rich and powerful criminals who do FAR WORSE than the Breiviks of this world? Hundreds of thousands of innocents murdered!

The solution is NOT more violence--killing the killers, brutalizing them, taking revenge, teaching our children to take revenge, taking the insane view that more violence "heals." It quite obviously does not.

I have to say, in defense of my arguments here, that I have lost a loved one to a mass killer. The killer was killed. I wish he hadn't been. I wish he had had a chance to heal. And that is not easy for me to say.

Peace Patriot

Well his name is Anders Breivik, not Andrew - even tho that is a smaller issue than the fact, he did a horrible act. And should be punished for it - in the way the laws in Norway make it possible.. At the moment, it is 21 year behind the walls - and if necessary in a kind of "protective custody" for as long as he is is a danger to himself - or to others... For as long as it is seen fit to do so..

Diclotican