This should put to rest on whether or not the cop acted in self defense.

You got to be fucking kidding

this poster claims the child was "armed"...with a BB gun

The cops didn't know it was an airsoft gun, not BB gun, airsoft gun, ergo, he was armed.
We can argue this all day, and neither one of us is going to relent in our opinions, so I'll leave it at that.
You have a good day sir/ma'am.

"having a gun" "reaching for a gun" is not justification for lethal force.

You should know that.

Had I done this in Iraq, during the occupation, I would have had an uphill battle justifying my actions. And rightly so.

as this poster damn well knows. granted, the cops may not, but claiming this kid was "armed," as this poster keeps doing, is disingenuous, at best.

Reaching for a gun gives cops all the justification they need to use lethal force.

Reaching for a gun isn't hostile intent in this situation? Really?

Military ROE is governed quite a bit by politics and the willingness of senior politicians and military officers to lose soldiers rather then upset the host country or risk a some major incident.

Mike DeWine will hold all evidence....He held the Walmart tapes in the August John Crawford shooting.... He only let selected individuals review them. He even let the 911 caller watch them to get his story straighten out for the Grand Jury.

Let's see.....

...on the part of the toy manufacturer.

Somebody needs to go to jail.

And I'd start with the CEO.

...which somebody removed or painted over.

Some folks paint over them, as you pointed out, and other folks paint orange tips on real guns.

I want something much more than just an orange tip distinguishing anything a kid might have in his or her hands from a real gun.

....so it's quite a turnabout for me to accept that perhaps the correct circumstances existed where this cop very well could have "acted in self-defense".

It's a very hard hill for me to climb, but I'll wait this one out and see what the video shows. I can't imagine a 12-year old drawing down in a threatening manner against a cop and I also realize that cops nowadays are generally frightened and trigger-happy, but I'm willing to see how this story unfolds.

If you don't mind, what part of AZ?

Currently CA.

Born and raised in Phx.

Lived the past 11 years in Maricopa until we moved to Santa Clarita, CA in August.

I was born in and raised in N. CA., now own a spread just outside of Flagstaff. Love it here.

....is my future retirement destination. LOVE that city.

My dad & stepmom live up on Hilltop just East of Downtown.

We'll definitely be able to take you up on that one day.

Thanks.

We aren't stupid.

Am I missing something?

And pathetic.

with a passion.

Hopefully the video is clear and captured everything.

Endless conjecture about the events is not productive.

you are in every shooting thread, usually supporting the shooter.

However, not knowing all information should not limit all discussion, only conclusions. My personal impressions, like many, was that based only on the information we have, it looked like it probably was a good shoot.

I'm glad that we will apparently now have something objective to either confirm or deny the information thus far, and maybe add more to our body of knowledge. It's good that this video came sooner, rather than later.

We will hopefully soon see if the officers acted properly, if tragically, were negligent in their duties, or were cold-blooded killers.

I'm having a hard time believing what I'm reading here. The kid was TWELVE years old!!!

What happened to common sense? Surely the cop could have found a way to end whatever situation was happening without deadly force. What if he was your kid?

simply that the police acted in an appropriate manner. Not every terrible outcome is the result of negligence or malice.

You state that "surely the cop could have found a way to end whatever situation was happening without deadly force," but given the information we know (if true, but the video that should be very informative), I believe it hard to argue that the officers did anything wrong.

In this instance, the police were called to a playground because of a 911 report of someone waving a gun around (there are some reports that the playground was a known gang hangout). The situation is now already serious and potentially very deadly. The police identify a suspect, the boy, with a weapon indistinguishable from a actual firearm. Apparently, someone had removed the orange marker that indicated the gun was not real. The officers properly instruct the boy to put his hands up to mitigate any danger. Rather than comply, the boy inexplicably reaches for the weapon. The police officer shoots to protect himself and other innocents, including children. The officer had to make an immediate decision based only on the information he had available at the time, nothing more.

If the officers' account is true, what would you suggest would have been the right course of action that wouldn't have gambled with the lives of the officers and innocent bystanders, and only knowing what the officers then knew?

I just think that sometimes the cops shoot before all other ways have been exhausted. The rules of escalation of force that cops use sometimes result in death when ten or fifteen years ago, that wouldn't have been the case.

More precise language than using the word "good". There's nothing good about these situations. I'd prefer "justifiable" over a broad term like "good", where the connotation is "more is better".

Another one cops need to bury in a hell pit: "gentleman rapist." There is no such fucking thing as a gentleman rapist. It is deeply offensive to victims, too. It is an attempt to minimize our pain and anger over a vicious violation of our person and spirit.

is always upheld by you. And while your hiding behind the law does give you biased credence, other people out here know what's been going on in this country, with people hiding behind their biased and racistly applied law and jagged moral boundaries concerning people of color, for generations. You and all of the execution enablers are known for what you are. I bet you would have found some 'lawful' reason for the hanging of Emmett Till. With every shooting that you have responded to looking like a "good shoot" to you, I couldn't be wrong, could I?

You are an unrelenting police-apologist. You aren't fooling anyone with your "fair and balanced" delivery.

No one believes you.

Like any other "Good Cop-Good Shoot" Preacher-Man, I'm pretty sure that soon your account will be listed as "name removed" and you won't have affected a single opinion here.

"he has a gun" - kill him. Cops can do it. why cant I.

What if Im on duty as a national guardsmen, and order an open carry guy to do something and he doesnt. Can I kill him then?

when. the. fuck. did. this. become. ok with people?!

EVER responded with when it comes to you. You hiding behind a biased and unequal justice system is just as bad as that individual who stands behind a badge and guns and does heinous things to citizens only because they have the state sanctioned power and privilege to do those things

To the average person, it looks VERY real.

They did nothing wrong, the airsoft gun was sold with the federally mandated orange tip indentifying it as a fake gun. The manufacterer followed all the laws.

Whoever removed the orange tip is responsible for this tragic death.

I see many posts about "whoever removed it" post. I have sons. I have bought plenty of fake guns, BB guns, airsoft. Those tips can also break off.

Which makes me wonder about the man that was shot in the Ohio Wal-mart. Did the cop not see the plastic orange tip? He saw the gun, so he had to have also seen the tip? The guy that called 911, didn't he see the orange tip?

The orange tip is only for toy guns, which includes the airsoft variety. While airsoft is called a BB gun by the media, it fires a bigger diameter plastic pellet at about 1/3 the velocity as a normal BB gun, which fires a metal projectile. The Airsoft rounds are not intended to puncture skin, though they can leave a welt. For proper play, a face shield protecting the mouth and eyes is needed. Standard BB guns are not ever to be aimed at people because they can puncture skin and in some cases, can kill.


Think of airsoft as a sport much like paintball. The purpose is to get dressed up and run around the woods in a mock war game.

about the puncture. My youngest son's friend was hit by one, it went into his heart, The kid was 8 or 9 then, very skinny and lucky to survive. He spent almost 2 months in the hospital. That was more of a fluke than the norm.

It was a lesson my kid learned from. Whenever I point out that he is beginning to mishandle his BB, airsoft or fake gun there isn't an argument. I have googled pics of BB and airsoft, it seems there is really no standard for the orange tip. Not all airsoft have it and not all BB's have it. It must be determined by the velocity? Even on most of the ones that have the orange tip, the tip is very small. IMO the tip should be huge and molded with the barrel so it can't be broken off without damaging the gun.

Video games get a lot of flack for encouraging a kid's fascination with guns. What gets overlooked is that we have been at war this kids entire life. Our soldiers are our heroes and kids play war games, they have since I can remember.

Airsoft always has one when purchased, but these are often removed as they are a dead give-away when playing in the woods. Camo is of no use with a blaze orange tip. Because the airsoft market hinges on realism, manufacturers will never mold a large tip permanently on the "gun" that cannot be hidden/removed. They are almost always painted over or removed.

Remember lawn darts?

the design should be changed so that these airsoft guns can't possibly be mistaken for the real thing and mold them is a color other than black, grey, silver.

But seriously I remember a child that was shot in California because he had a toy gun in his hand that was red, but it was so dark, the cop could only see the silhouette. So the shape of them needs to be very specific too.

Nevertheless, "toy" guns should not look like real guns. I'm glad more of these tragic incidents have not occurred.

The thing was tampered with. They wanted it to look real, Why would a 12 year old be on the streets in a city with a BB gun that looks like a real gun?

...of a dangerous weapon...in the hands of a youngster.
Sadly, years ago, nobody would have thought that much about it. (look...kid is playing cops and robbers...no big deal)

As for myself, I doubt if I would have given it a second look.

Congress should pass a law mandating that those airsoft guns should be completely redesigned in such a way that they can't possibly be mistaken for a real gun.
Also, paint them in some wild color.

I just hope it shows clearly what really happened.

do you still believe the officers acted inappropriately, and if so, why?

This incident was certainly a tragedy, but thus far there is no evidence that the police did anything but try to properly protect the public and themselves.

If the boy had a real gun and shot people at the playground, I'm confident that many here who have already condemned these officers would be similarly complaining that police negligence and "lack of respect for the lives of the public" were responsible for any injuries and deaths of other children.

I'm beginning to think that to many, being a cop is in itself a crime.

"There's a guy in there with a pistol, you know, it's probably fake, but he's like pointing it at everybody," the caller can be heard saying. "He's sitting on a swing right now, but he's pulling it in and out of his pants and pointing it at people," the caller explained. "He's probably a juvenile, you know?"

He mentions that the gun is probably a fake, and the person is probably a juvenile. Cops can't handle anything without shooting these days. He was 12 years old, and black. Of course...his race had nothing at all to do with it. Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

And do we know who the responding officers are? I don't believe that's been released yet.

The gun could still be real (and it certainly looks real from the photos, particularly without the orange plug) and a juvenile is more than capable of killing people, including the officers, with a gun. Many weekends in Chicago will attest to this simple and sad fact.

The most relevant piece of evidence is what actually happened when the officers approached the boy. We apparently have the officers' account, which exonerates them of any wrongdoing, but the video and other evidence will hopefully prove conclusive one way or the other.

I wouldn't

Nobody bothers asking whether the same facts would have produced the same dead kid in some tony suburb, with a twelve year old white boy. Needless to say, whether the gun "looked real" (here comes some shithead with the picture they've been using to spam the board) is of interest to people who already think that twelve year old black kids look scary. "Spittery bluster of course it would happen to a twelve year old white kid dressed head to toe in Gap Kids clothes blah blah blah protocol." Bullshit.

Don't get distracted by the gun nutters and their breathlessly posted pictures. This is about black folks having a shorter life expectancy when white cops are around.

One of these dumbshits is commenting on every thread that mentions this, same routine, over and over. Can't get enough of it. "It really shows what you can do if you have the know-how and the hardware," to quote Michael Herr, ahem.

the 12year old deserved to die. He pulled the trigger on his own death. I've read this implication many times here. The victim was responsible for his own death. I get it. Thanks for the accommodation.

So quit making shit up.
Whoever removed that tip is responsible for this tragic death.

your protest rings VERY hollow. Every time you respond, like some others on here, to the shooting of black people, unarmed and in cases such as this you reveal just what you think and it's not balanced and/or fair minded. In fact it is the exact OPPOSITE. Stop creating BS and obfuscation and I'll stop pointing out your transparency. You don't want the truth from me, .......you have options.

You're so transparent.

thanks for the accommodation.

Have fun living a hate filled life.

back atcha....

Back atcha....

Have a good day.

fooling yourself....back atcha accommodator

Another internet psychologist speaks.

thank you.....you have a good one.....

Cold day today here in Flagstaff, got to take care of our livestock, feed the chickens, slop the hogs.
The work never ends.

think of your own lines. You're using the valid observation I made of you the other day to shield yourself whenever anyone holds a mirror up to you.



I'll repeat, GGJ: you're transparent, you bring nothing to discussion here except excuses and apologia for killer cops.

It must be true, because Feral Child says so.

DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Gun sales surge ahead of ... » Reply #131


Now, which of us speaks the truth, GG?

Virtually no one has claimed the shooting was anything but a terrible tragedy. The discussions have primarily concerned whether or not the officers nevertheless acted properly? Issues like whether the gun looked identical to a real firearm is certainly pertinent.

If the video and other evidence and testimony confirms the officers' account of what happened, do still believe the shooting was not justified? What should the officers have done differently knowing what they knew then?

Lastly, do we even yet know the races of either of the involved police officers?

do you know? I would bet my last dollars as to what race the shooting officer IS.

where the kid was white. as of course, all the usual suspects are claiming they are not supporting the cop's version, and claiming they rest of us should not speculate. it's becoming to sickeningly familiar.

You and others repeating it does not make it true. Last I checked, even white suburban cops not only do not want to be shot, but they normally want to protect innocents, including other children and adults at playgrounds, from being shot. A 12 year old with a gun can do a tremendous amount of damage, regardless of their race, religion or any other characteristic.

I and others are not willing to assume wrongdoing on the part of anyone, even if they are police, without actual evidence of some wrongdoing. You might presume people are murders, and you might find the unwillingness of others to do so to be "sickening," but that is how our system works, presumption of innocence, due process, etc.

Because white youth are not automatically (and subconsciously) considered "dangerous", armed or not. I.e., the assumption that a 12 year old "with a gun" (or not) at a playground is there for malicious purposes.

If the child looked like this -



the impulse to shoot-on-site wouldn't have occurred despite a "gun-looking" object in her hand.

It was not clear that the gun was a BB Gun. Therefore, if the kid was waving the gun around to prompt a 911 call, then when the officer arrived on the scene, he reached for it pulling it from his waistband as described in current reports. Then boy put his own life on the line. A cop is not going to wait to be shot at if you brandish a gun.

Things like this are why we need stiffer gun laws in this country, so cops don't have to shoot kids with BB guns.

to a 12 year old "white kid in a tony suburb" because we all know they're not prone to being violent because of their skin color.....

Shitheads being the shitheads they are. We need a pile of shit emogi to respond to them.

also your message was alerted upon:


On Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:00 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Gun nuts and cop fetishists love this story - the quintessential "good shoot," as these assholes say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=951314

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Calling a person showing the gun in question a "shithead" spamming the board is over the top rude and doesn't help at all. This post was fine except for calling others "shitheads" and "dumbshits".

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:09 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: post is PERFECTLY appropriate. LLP
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Dumbass
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I have a problem calling DUers "dumbshits" and "shitheads". Vote to hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If the foo shits...
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Will you admit that you could be wrong about this shooting?

Will you admit that you could be wrong about this shooting?

Will you?

they should be disciplined and/or prosecuted as the facts may dictate.

If the officers' accounts are accurate, will you admit they acted appropriately?

the orange on the tip of the barrel was removed *before* the shooting.

Sorry, but at my age, I've read too many times of cops planting guns on dead suspects.

BB guns do cause injury. One of the young men interviewed says that he has a bb gun as do many of their friends. I say this often but where were the parents? I didn't allow my 12 year-old son to go to the park with out an adult present and I never regretted being that strict.

Distinction is that airsoft shoots small plastic pellets, BBs are what the older folks think of with small metal bearings...

Since it is real, as you are telling me, I would appreciate you clearing up this confusing concept..

owned a Daisy when they were kids.

It is an Airsoft which fires larger plastic rounds not capable of breaking the skin. I have a BB rifle type gun that will penetrate through 3/8 inch plywood. 2 different animals. The media once again shows their ignorance in equating one with the other.

I am not a supporter of the airsoft play or paintball. I bought the BB gun because we were being over run by rats. We have cats outside but they didn't seemed to be doing the job. I shot one rat and it seems that insulted Eddie and we were finding headless rats regularly. So the BB gun has been unused.

Edit to add that I am against any play war using projectile firing weapons. As a child from the city who moved out to the family ranch I frightened my grown uncle with a cap gun. When he realized that it was a toy he said never point it at anyone ever again and if I put them away (I had a matched set) he would train me in the SAFE use of a rifle. The 1st rule is that you never point at anything you don't intend to shoot and you never intend to shoot a person. 2nd it is always loaded, the only exception to this is when it is in pieces on the workbench. There were at least 10 of these rules but those 2 are the most important.

I didn't watch the video.

But to answer your question, no, the kid did not point the gun at the cops. He was shot before he got to that point.

Mike DeWine kept the videos for the police investigation to use in review to get their stories straight. Don't expect these to be released anytime soon.

The John Crawford case was in Beavercreek Ohio near Dayton. Mike DeWne remains attorney general.

Wow this is getting crazy.

The normal sequence is:
1. Lift shirt
2. Grab the gun grip
3. Pull gun out of pants
4. Aim gun at target
5. Pull the trigger.

The kid was shot somewhere in steps 2-3, before #4 happened, according to all the articles.

in America when we bicker about IF and WHEN its OK to shoot and kill a child not even attempting to use non lethal force. Perhaps manufaturers should not be permitted to make toys so realistic. In the 60s my brother had a pop gun that looked like a pearl handled pistol... he survived childhood.
What days these are indeed.

The gun in the pictures above looks pretty damn real.

the 12 year old deserved to die. I've read that very statement or implication here many times before you.

Last edited Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:28 AM - Edit history (1)

to NOT let their children play in public areas like a recreation center/playground, with toy guns, if they can be seen by white people. I don't care if the 'orange' safety cone is off or not. Do not let your children play cops and robbers or cowboys and genocide against native-Americans. I'm serious. In this post Trayvon Martin/zimpig murder acquittal time, with the upcoming Michael Brown/darren wilson travesty right over the horizon and the ongoing anxiety surrounding that murder/execution, all black children need to be kept safe from paranoid and or racist citizens(walmart shooting) and police officers. Also, DO NOT let them play in the streets. Please use a lot of logical restraint in activities that can be misconstrued as dangerous black people not showing enough respect to the laws and the 'officers' who uphold those laws. In regard to the paranoid and/or racist citizens, if the child is too small tell them to quickly get away from people like that, otherwise proceed as a person fighting for their right(s) to be recognized as a human being...........

will you admit that it was justifiable?

It was a fake gun. There is no justifiable reason to kill someone with a fake gun. It was a mistake by the cop and the 911 operator. These days, they don't even have to say "drop the gun", they just shoot to kill.

instead, he reached for the gun.
Also, the 911 operator failed to pass along the info from the 911 caller that the gun might be fake, so the officers didn't have that info either.

This was a tragedy all around that shouldn't have happened if someone hadn't removed the orange tip from that airsoft gun.

If he could have done harm to the cops, then it would have perhaps been justifiable, but he could not and it was not.

The cops could have held off from killing him and they would not have been hurt. There is no way that the kid could have hurt the cop. If they had showed just a bit of courage, then the kid would be alive and they won't have to be inconvenienced by a bogus investigation that will exonerate them because the gun fetishists in this country have created a massively paranoid culture, especially in law enforcement.

Thanks, GGJohn, you and those like you are responsible for this ridiculous reality.

"Drop the gun!!". Ahhh, a relic of a bygone era.

Last edited Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

You say they should have waited? What kind of an comment is that? Suppose it was real, and at that time, the cops had no reason to believe otherwise, they were supposed to wait until it was drawn and pointed at them?

cops have to wait until a gun is drawn on them before they can act.
But just for community peace, I'll edit it out.

is ridiculous. No doubt they'll try to change that before release of tape.