well in the media?

I am constantly surprised that anyone who considers themselves a liberal or intellectual would want to repress or discourage information not well covered due to media bias.

'“The Ukrainian authorities must not replicate the lawlessness and abuses that have prevailed in areas previously held by separatists,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International Secretary General from Kyiv.'

They start off by saying Kiev should not behave as badly as the secessionists Russia sponsors behave. So the best you get out of it is that Kiev's people are not any better than the people they oppose, whom you have no trouble at all exalting as 'the good guys'.

And then, when citing Amnesty International, you somehow manage to avoid this:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-07

Here are some highlights:

“Our evidence shows that Russia is fuelling the conflict, both through direct interference and by supporting the separatists in the East. Russia must stop the steady flow of weapons and other support to an insurgent force heavily implicated in gross human rights violations.”

“These satellite images, coupled with reports of Russian troops captured inside Ukraine and eyewitness accounts of Russian troops and military vehicles rolling across the border leave no doubt that this is now an international armed conflict,” said Shetty ( Amnesty International Secretary General )"

"Civilians from these areas told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian government forces subjected their neighbourhoods to heavy shelling. Their testimonies suggest that the attacks were indiscriminate and may amount to war crimes. Witnesses also said that separatist fighters abducted, tortured, and killed their neighbours"

"In an illustrative incident, residents of Slovyansk told Amnesty International that separatist fighters kidnapped a local pastor, two of his sons and two churchgoers, and requested a US$50,000 ransom for their release. By the time the local community managed to collect the requested ransom, the witnesses said, the captors had killed all of the men.

"Amnesty International has also received credible reports of abductions and beatings carried out by volunteer battalions operating alongside regular Ukrainian armed forces. "

This is what happens when you step out beyond the happy little confines of 'Russia Times' and 'Vineyard of the Saker' and the rest of the fever swamp from which you and you cohorts are more accustomed to draw your references....

including the one you posted and I thank you for that....but, the poster gave the proper link to the site where all the info is available and it's not up to the OP to force people to do the work of reading further from on Amnesty's site when the article posted is what he said it was and not from RT or the Vineyard person.

He made the link available and we are all able to read and post the other info from the site in this thread as you did.

And even there, he glossed over the opening of it, which called on the Kiev authorities not to behave as badly as the secessionists behaved. He selected something which buttresses his view, something he could turn to propaganda for his side, ignoring context and material discrediting to the side he supports. You will note that in the excerpts I posted from another, much longer and broader report, I included charges against Kiev's forces as well as charges against the secessionists and Russia. The person you are defending here is on a campaign to present this as a situation in which one side is demonic and the other side angelic. This cannot be done without considerable distortion and dishonesty, because it is false to fact. I do not like encountering deliberate attempts to mislead and deceive, especially when the people presenting them posture as bold tellers of the truth, independent thinkers who are only disagreed with by the dupes of propaganda. Deliberate attempts to mislead have no more place in a discussion of world events than counterfeit bills have in commercial trade.

You posted the information you wanted to post from the site in reply. I could read both on this thread and more by going to Amenesty's site which the OP linked. My mind is not distorted by either report because Amnesty places blame on both Ukrainian Army and their affiliates and the Separatists.

You seem to be criticizing that he didn't post what you wanted him to post and are somehow accusing him of posting propaganda when there is no evidence of that. It seems you have a personal issue with that poster which shouldn't be the issue since you are free here to post rebuttals on the thread and we are free to read your counters. Those interested can read both or go to the site and spend the day reading everything there.

I have no personal issue with this member, but I strongly dislike what he does, which is to present deliberately misleading material, whether sourced to outright propaganda sites and hate sites, or cherry-picked from reputable venues, whose product, taken whole, would not only not support, but positively demolish, the view he presents of events in Ukraine, namely that one side is demonic, and one side angelic.

I purposely post the information that does not get covered and is not generally in the narrow media framing. There is no reason to post what is already well covered.

I have always thought that is part of what liberals do, they look at all sides and infomation in order to form an accurate understanding.

Seems not everyone here is really into liberal or intellectual thought; some would even like to see sites like this as simply a passthrough for a preferred narrative. I fail to see that as in any way progressive.

I have explained my reasoning multiple times. Seems some simply don't want to have an open mind.

Thus the OP.

Your suggestion that just because it also mentions the separatists (which basically they must do in every reference due to the political component) is that somehow it is really about the separatists shows your obvious bias.

I am not going to argue with you. The post stands on it's own. People here are able to read it themselves.

Perhaps the lamest excuse for one-sided cherry-picking to appear here.

I repeat the link to, and excerpts from, the more comprehensive piece:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-07

Here are some highlights:

“Our evidence shows that Russia is fuelling the conflict, both through direct interference and by supporting the separatists in the East. Russia must stop the steady flow of weapons and other support to an insurgent force heavily implicated in gross human rights violations.”

“These satellite images, coupled with reports of Russian troops captured inside Ukraine and eyewitness accounts of Russian troops and military vehicles rolling across the border leave no doubt that this is now an international armed conflict,” said Shetty ( Amnesty International Secretary General )"

"Civilians from these areas told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian government forces subjected their neighbourhoods to heavy shelling. Their testimonies suggest that the attacks were indiscriminate and may amount to war crimes. Witnesses also said that separatist fighters abducted, tortured, and killed their neighbours"

"In an illustrative incident, residents of Slovyansk told Amnesty International that separatist fighters kidnapped a local pastor, two of his sons and two churchgoers, and requested a US$50,000 ransom for their release. By the time the local community managed to collect the requested ransom, the witnesses said, the captors had killed all of the men.

"Amnesty International has also received credible reports of abductions and beatings carried out by volunteer battalions operating alongside regular Ukrainian armed forces. "

they're on "our" side.

We hear endlessly this black and white scenario that is missing much of the story driving events.

He frequently referred to the Nazis as 'armed intellectuals'.

Any number of people have relaxed by reading poetry and playing chess, even listening to classical music, between bouts of doing perfectly awful things....