bemildred

And - in most cases, this type of prisons works - it is a prison - you have rules to be followed at all times - you are not a free man or woman - but in most cases it works - and by the way - if you are given a prison time where you have no bars, and where you can dress casually - you incite some trust between the guards - and the inmates - who know they are inmates - and who might hope to be free again..

I'm not sure this type of prison systems would work in the US - not with some real tweaking along the way - but it gives at least a human face to the idea of putting people behind bars for years at end..

And the Halden Prison - is one of the most modern prisons in the whole Norway - where inmates have a degree of autonomy I doubt will be the model in any US prisons anytime soon..

Another reason I think our prison system is so different from how things are in the US - is because the whole community at large is a far more peacefully than the US is currently - mostly because we are a lot of lesser people, but also because I think it is a lot mote trust between people - and between people and the government - that trust - make it more easy to have this type of prisons - where you do not have a lot of bars and where you might tend to be more humane in most cases... But of course Norway do have prisons - where you are behind bars to a degree... Or where the prisons have far more security than the norm - like the prison who Anders Breivik currently is in, who have a whole area inside the prison where it exist a lot more security than elsewhere in the prison... The sad part is that mr Breivik is a very challenging man to have inside a prison - so in order to let the guards getting some rest from the duty of protecting him against himself - they have to rotate him in and out of different prisons - just to let the guards get a easy time with ordinary prisoners...

Diclotican

So if you want to reduce brutality, you have to reduce brutal environments, i.e. prisons that intend to rehabilitate cannot be brutal. Only prisons that do not care, or welcome recidivism, can afford to be brutal.

But no, I don't think it would work here, the social compact is badly frayed, if not broken, here. The rule of law is spotty at best. Cops are enforcers, and think of themselves as such.

bemildred

It is true, that if you want to turn down the brutality - you have to start in the environment, all the way down to how people live their life - and then continue to do that if they ever end up in a prison - make them get the tools they are in need off, to survive and prosper, even after they have been in a prison... And that's more or less what our prison system is all about - rehabilitate prisoners who other vice would just up in a revolting door policy in and out of the prison... And I think it is important to be able to stop as many to be reactivated..

I think US have a lot of things to try to repair - if it is possible to even to do that anymore - as you point out the police is more or less enforcers, not necessary the keeper of peace anymore... And I think it is a bad idea when Police think they more or less is over the LAW, and can do as they want - with the blessings of the rest of the system...

US have tonnes of problems they need to address - One of them is the trust in the community and the authorities - who are non-existing at this time.... And is maybe at the root of most of the problems you face in todays US, the total lack of trust between the ones who is subject to the laws - and the part who is enforcing the law.... When that fail - everything is off, and the community end up as it is today many places in the US...

Diclotican

And some prisons would likely still have to be brutal, but small ones, and rigidly supervised.

One of the problems with that is the guards, how do you keep the guards from not picking up the brutality of their jobs?

Maybe your suggestion is best, don't let them stay long, rotate them.

bemildred

Everyone is protected to have a as human possible a prison experience as possible - even madmen like Anders Breivik - who have not showing any form of remorse for what he did - and who often act out in a way who can be somewhat of a challenge to the authorities in the prisons he is situated... He have sued the government more than one time - because he claim he is misused in prison - because have not access to internet - and have no free access to a computer where he can email and communicate with others who share his wiews... In the beginning he just had a old fashioned type-writer to write his letters, who then was put in the mails - but the share amount of his writings was given the prison a problem, as he could type 50-60 letters a week at the time, where he communicated with others who for some reason share his values and ideals around Europe... Of course most of the letters was just ramblings from a mad man - but every single of them had to be evaluated and copied by the prison authorities so he could not give messages to others who share his rather insane ideal of the world... Sadly he is not alone when it come to this type of madness... Even if judged as a sane person at the trial...

One of the way to not let guards picking brutality and violence as part of their job - is to re-educate them, many times over - and first of all - give them a good education from the day they start their job.. To be a prison guard, you ned at least a 2 year education, on college/university level, where you learn how to use psychology, and many others ways to control inmates - and to use as little violence as human posible.... If you have a good principal education about being a prison guard - it is more easy to control your inmates with as little violence as needed - of course if needed - prison guards can defend them self - and do damage to the one, or ones who is challenging the system to much.. But the idea is not to use violence for its own means - but to use as little violence as necessary - and to give prisoners who already is in prison - a possibility to be rehabilitated - so it is no need to put them back in a prison anymore...

Many who came from abroad and end up in our prison system, think our way of doing things is soft - and they find our prison system, where you is given a lot of freedom to be extremely naive - they call it being on a hotel when they are put behind bars here - but the system works for the most part, even if it are a long way from perfect yet... If it had been, we maybe would have no use for prison at all...

And it also works, if some of the guards, who might be a challenge on itself - some rotation between prisons - and to keep them up to date.. And also maybe also put some of the worst offenders - like Anders Breivik - in different prisons now and then - just to keep him out of harms way - and also to keep the guards safe from his insanity - as he is some of a challenge - some report who have been coming out now and then is telling about a person who is extremely combative - and is always challenging the guards, and also trying to "get under their skin" - and poison the well, so to say... So it is for the most part experienced guard who is kept busy guarding Anders Breivik - as the authorities doesn't like the idea of getting a rookie into the same ward as Breivik.... Even if he is finishing his sentence in many years to come, I suspect he wil be keept in protective custody - both for his own sake - but also becouse the rest of the community would have mutch to fear if he ever got out of prison... Even when he is a old man weak from age, I doubt he wil be given his freedom back... The only way mr Breivik wil get out - if if he is extremely weak and sick of old age - or dead... And then he might get some peace from his demons he have inside him...

I do not think I wil se him as a free man - and I am just a few years older than he is...

Diclotican

These prisoners enjoy better quality of life than a very large percentage of our population.

Michael Moore's, Sicko. It was impressive. They approach the end game well,
meaning most people will be returned to society, so prepare for that as best one
can. The prison Moore visited was different than this one, if I recall correctly.
It has been quite awhile since I viewed the film, but one prisoner was there
due to having used a chain saw in his crime. Norway's system
eventually allowed the prisoner to use a chain saw for cutting down trees.
They felt it was wrong to avoid all the rage that was associated with his
crime and his weapon of choice. Hard to imagine an approach here that
would even come close to what they have in Norway.

Jefferson23

I know - it was part of the DVD, that mr Moore was not using in his movie - Sicko, as he know most americans would not belive that it exist a country where prisons are given the freedom shown in Sicko - specially when they was at Bastøy - a prison who is on a iceland who regulary have a ferry going to and from - and who also have a past as a school for troubled kids (a rather brutal school for troubled kids, where misuse and brutality was more the norm than the opposite - and who continued to be used as a school for troubled kids allmoust to my own time - my fosterfather treatend me often with "if you do not behave, you could end up at Bastøy" Who he really belived could happend - as he was been treatend by it when he was a kid in the 1920s and 1930s... By his father... It was back then a really scary place to be, if you was a kid who misbehaved... It was for him, something to be afraid about..

Thankfully by my time the school was closed down - and for some years it was nothing there - before it was reused as a correctional facility who it still is - where prisoners who have behaved inside the prison system - when it was maybe one or two - or maybe tree years on to their release from prison could come - live, and adjust to the world outside the prison system... Many even work outside of the prison - on the mainland - and is commuting from and back as regulary pepole - in their own cloths and all - if you do not know where they lived - you could mistake them for ordinary pepole who was on their way to work, or home back from work..... They do have a curfew to attend to - but other than that - in most cases they is able to walk around, as they please - as it is no walls between you and the freedom - it is in most cases build on trust - between the inmate and the guards... And it is very seldom someone who deside to run and not come back to the prison if they are given aceess to travel to the mainland.. They do know that if you do not behave, you could end up in worse conditions than at Bastøy - back in a prison with walls - and with stricter rules than there....With less sucessrate when they are released to the ordinary life again..

Diclotican

won't pretend I think that will ever happen here.

Jefferson23

I think you are right about it - it would be very troublesome to get something like this making its way to the US anytime soon... US is to violent to make this happend - and I doubt prisoners and the guards wil have any type of trust needed to make a prison like Bastøy works in the US.... I think for one thing - the guards must have a lot more education before anything like this even is posible as a project for young offenders who might be a risk of ending up as gang members if not keept away from the general poulation...

Even though - it would had been a nice project - if some young offenders who had not been to "bad" had been given a chance in life - to be rehabilitated in a setting where it is some trust between the two groups - where the correctional officers have some greater education instead of just a 8 week crach course - and where every one of the offenders are given a shance to at least be able to do their time - and to get some education - that be high school diploma - or even some higher education - and to "do their time" in eviroments who can be used to make it posible for them to make it on the outside - as ordinary pepole who keep themself on the right track the rest of their life.... But then you need a place to have the prison - and the ressourses aviable to make it so - and I doubt that would come sometime soon in the US, where the prisons is overbooked many times over, and where the gangs more or less rule the inside of the prisons - even if they are not in control of the gates out of it

Diclotican

approach would have to change, and I agree with you. Our approach which now involves
privatized prisons has only made this worse than before..there is an incentive that did not exist before
in the US. We don't even approach juvenile crime with any sanity, and what is known
as a zero tolerance application, which in effect, does not allow for thinking when a
child goes out of bounds, often innocently, on a school based rule.

When you can read that a 5th grade student can be hauled off in a police squad car because
she brought a knife to school and was using it in the cafeteria to cut her lunch meat and
instead of dealing with the situation with intelligence, they call the police...true story.

I wish that were the only example of how far from your countries system we are here..
our reliance on punitive measures is pathetic.

Jefferson23

I know about some of the stories, about even a small as 1 grade children been transported out of the school, in back of a police squad car because he/she broke a rule... That is just pure stupidity - and have nothing to do with education, and to give children any comfort, and security when they are at school... I can just imagine how children at that age will have fear into their bones for as long as they live, if they had being doing something totally Innocent - like having a knife to lunch, and getting all hell because of it - and end up in a police cruiser, maybe even experience the full booking system and the jail time - even if it is a short one... You do not put a 5 grade in prison - specially he/she have broken a school rule - then you explain it to the pupil - and maybe put a message home for the parents to read about the children's misbehavour... It is just insanity to put children at that age in a police cruiser - and to make him/her a fool of the whole school - for something that might have been solved if you had been talking to the kid, in the principals office, about the fact you do not take a knife to school - and maybe explain to the kid why it is important to follow the rules set by grown ups.. Like any sensible grown up should do....

But when you have a "prison for profit" system like in the US - you need to get children in the system as early as possible - and as fast as possible I guess...

Diocletian

Last edited Sat Mar 14, 2015, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

in part to avoid liability for schools..it is a mess here. The authorities have taken it to a new
low and we're not helping children, we're doing the opposite.

Always good to converse with you, Diclotican...stay well.



on edit for spelling error.

....for a lengthy time.

Pauldg47

Sometimes a "time out" is what children need, to get a grasp of what they did wrong - and sometimes it is maybe what even grown up need - to get a grasp about what they did wrong - instead of being incarcerated for the rest of their life, without any possibility of regretting what they did wrong - and to reform them self if possible.

In theory - even our mass murderer Anders Breivik should be able to be a free man after he have doing his time in prison - but on a practical level I doubt he will be a free man - mostly because he still can be seen as a danger to others, and kept in what is known as protective custody for as ling as it is needed to be that... And I think, from what I do know - that mr Breivik will never have any remorse for what he did - and therefore is a man who is in danger of doing it again - even if he is a old man when he get out... And therefore - for everyones safely need to be kept in a prison, or an institution where he might not be a free man for the rest of his natural life - or at least until a old age when he can not harm anyone anymore...

Diclotican