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BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:00 AM Jun 2015

Haaretz: Edward Snowden, defender of democracy or accessory to autocracy?

Re. the reports over the weekend that Russia and China have cracked Snowden's files:

...Greenwald, as usual, was quick to post an angry rebuttal on The Intercept. He accused the Sunday Times correspondents, quite rightly, of basing their report on anonymous sources with an obvious interest in smearing Snowden and blaming him for wreaking havoc. Greenwald pointed to contradictions in their information; he especially contested their assertion that Snowden arrived in Moscow with the documents still in his possession. The Snowden-Greenwald camp has long claimed that he handed these documents over to journalists he trusted – and even if he wanted to, he could no longer pass them on to another spy agency.

The British weekly’s account is indeed far from conclusive. But Greenwald’s detailed case for the defense continues to evade the central questions hovering over Snowden’s head. If his sole intention truly was to inform American citizens of the way their government intrudes on their private communications, why did he spend months collecting a massive collection of classified documents (as many as 1.7 million according to some sources), often using passwords purloined from his colleagues? Wouldn’t it have been enough to abscond with just the relevant ones? And when he began the big reveal, or more accurately, when journalists who received the documents began publishing them, why did the focus move away from solely privacy issues to practically any international spy program that titillated the media? (Take, for example, the eavesdropping of national leaders’ personal phones, including that of German Chancellor Angela Merkel.)

...Greenwald accuses Snowden’s critics of not basing their allegations on facts, but fails to present his own facts to prop up his defense; he basically demands that we take Snowden and him at their word. Books published on the case and interviews Snowden has given recently present contradictions over how and when he decided to start hoarding documents and ultimately become a “whistleblower,” and how exactly he decided to travel to Hong Kong and meet Poitras and Greenwald. The presumption of Snowden’s innocence and noble intentions is based on unquestionably accepting his and Greenwald’s version of events, with all their contradictions, and believing that Moscow, against all logic and precedent, would just leave him to his own devices.

...Greenwald and his allies argue that, as Western journalists, their responsibility is to hold their own governments accountable. They also emphasize the fact that not many countries were willing to welcome Snowden with open arms. If he had leaked the documents while in the U.S. or a country with an extradition agreement with the U.S, he could have faced a similar fate to that of Chelsea Manning, the army intelligence analyst who passed hundreds of thousands of documents to the WikiLeaks organization and is now serving a 35-year sentence.

That argument may be valid, but it doesn’t excuse the near-total disregard of the much worse trespasses on the Russian side – especially not when there’s a possibility that Snowden, at best, is serving their propaganda and, at worst, that the documents he stole have fallen into their hands.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.661207



41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Haaretz: Edward Snowden, defender of democracy or accessory to autocracy? (Original Post) BeyondGeography Jun 2015 OP
Really sick of the conjecture based on nothing. marym625 Jun 2015 #1
I'm most interested in this question, and it's what's getting in the way of any potential amnesty BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #3
Though the main purpose was to expose the illegal marym625 Jun 2015 #7
I'd love to change the world... BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #13
Absolutely zero evidence of any harm done? No you don't have any proof of this statement, Snowden Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #6
I love the "prove a negative" crowd. marym625 Jun 2015 #8
When you have your proof then you can post it here. Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #9
proof of what? That no harm has come from what he did? marym625 Jun 2015 #10
Nothing new here. Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #11
I truly feel bad for you. marym625 Jun 2015 #12
You don't have to feel sorry for me, after the lies started I saw Snowden for what he has proven him Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #14
One more character attack from a predictable source? Ford_Prefect Jun 2015 #2
This line of defense is really a spent force, to the extent that it was ever a force to begin with BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #4
I asked it as a question because the text is hidden behind a pay for access screen. Ford_Prefect Jun 2015 #15
How do you 'limit' disclosure about constant *indiscriminate* spying? cprise Jun 2015 #16
He lost control of the narrative from the get-go BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #18
'Proper whistleblowers' are made into examples cprise Jun 2015 #23
If you're saying Snowden is screwed, I agree with you BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #24
I knew it wouldn't be long before 'realpolitik' was introduced cprise Jun 2015 #31
Greenwald should not be mad at Snowden's critics, just as Greenwald has his opinion, we are entitled Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #5
If it were valid criticism and not mudslinging cprise Jun 2015 #17
He is accusing the NSA of violations of the Fourth Amendment which provides wording requiring a Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #19
The government has a stunningly bad record on protecting its own property. bemildred Jun 2015 #20
Yes there seems to be violations, a lot by hackers, having said this, Snowden did not have the Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #21
It ought not EVER have been collected and put in one place on a computer. bemildred Jun 2015 #22
The foremost authority on encryption accepts Snowden's technique cprise Jun 2015 #25
He cleaned the NSAs clock for them, stole their lunch, he was good enough to do that. bemildred Jun 2015 #26
Here's an alternative view from Wired, published today BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #27
From your link: bemildred Jun 2015 #28
Noted...and believeable as well BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #33
He revealed it because it ought not be collected. bemildred Jun 2015 #34
So you're fine with other governments sitting on this knowledge cprise Jun 2015 #37
lol...how else are they supposed to enjoy their dreary station in life BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #39
Breaking: The FBI is investigating the Cardinals for hacking into the Astros’ computer system bemildred Jun 2015 #38
‘Collective Panic’ Spreads Among Federal Employees Over OPM Hack bemildred Jun 2015 #40
Do you sincerely think encryption is going to protect files from hackers? Not for one minute Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #29
Yes, I do. So does Schneier. nt bemildred Jun 2015 #30
Go ask the hacker Snowden, he might tell you differently. Thinkingabout Jun 2015 #32
Have a nice day. nt bemildred Jun 2015 #35
OMG... Haaaaackers??? cprise Jun 2015 #36
K&R Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #41

marym625

(17,997 posts)
1. Really sick of the conjecture based on nothing.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:19 AM
Jun 2015

Absolutely zero evidence of any harm done, or any documents leaked to other countries. Every thing that has been leaked had a purpose and our government should be held to task.

When we start allowing our government complete control over our citizens, when we disregard intrusions that should be done only to those that pose a threat, at best, and start condemning the people that have responsibly brought these violations to light at the behest of the same government that has committed such illegal acts, we deserve the police state we are living in.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
3. I'm most interested in this question, and it's what's getting in the way of any potential amnesty
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:22 AM
Jun 2015

"Why did the focus move away from solely privacy issues to practically any international spy program that titillated the media?"

Do you have an answer?

marym625

(17,997 posts)
7. Though the main purpose was to expose the illegal
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jun 2015

Practices against US citizens, and citizens, it was also about the illegal practices, and immoral practices, of our government spying on innocent citizens of other nations as well as friendly government officials.

Where are your posts and concerns about what has been exposed that our country does? Where is your concern about a whistle blower being so vilified without any proof of the allegations? Who is more dangerous to you?


BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
13. I'd love to change the world...
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:46 AM
Jun 2015

Countries spy on each other; my feelings weren't hurt. I'm still free to flap my gums as much as I want without fear of retribution. Meantime, Ed has spent the last two years in much more repressive environments, maybe not for him (yet), but for the average citizens there.

Snowden's espionage reveals were of far less interest to the average American citizen than those that focused on metadata. It's pretty clear by now to most people that he should have confined his file pilfering to that area.

My first reaction to the Snowden story was that this very young man really screwed up his life in ways he didn't appear to fully understand. I think that's being borne out.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
6. Absolutely zero evidence of any harm done? No you don't have any proof of this statement, Snowden
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jun 2015

will be held at task.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
14. You don't have to feel sorry for me, after the lies started I saw Snowden for what he has proven him
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:50 AM
Jun 2015

to be, not reliable.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
4. This line of defense is really a spent force, to the extent that it was ever a force to begin with
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:26 AM
Jun 2015

The article rightly praises Snowden's impact on personal privacy protections. He'd be pretty much bullet-proof if his disclosures were limited to that issue. They weren't, and he is in deep shit legally in this country because of it.

Ford_Prefect

(7,924 posts)
15. I asked it as a question because the text is hidden behind a pay for access screen.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 07:34 PM
Jun 2015

As such I cannot tell what the article contains or the context of the remarks. Your opinion alone is not persuasive, no offense.
One must ask this given the past attacks and disinformation programs directed at Snowden and in response the releases made public in the Guardian and elsewhere.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
16. How do you 'limit' disclosure about constant *indiscriminate* spying?
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:51 AM
Jun 2015

If the government wants to collect billions of gigabytes of information about citizens' minute-by-minute activities, it shouldn't expect the disclosure about its activities to be a model of modest proportions.

In any case, we have several people with good reputations saying the documents number in the thousands, not millions. Are Poitras, Greenwald and The Guardian lying to us in unison?

Crucially, Snowden gave the documents to a small number of journalists and involved Laura Poitras specifically because she has a sufficient working knowledge of security and encryption. He did not dump them to the public.

I'd say it is your line of questioning that is tired. It implies that the press -- the Fourth Estate -- cannot be trusted with sensitive information. You should ask more questions about the government's creation of a surveillance-state quagmire in the first place. People like you are too ready to place the blame on the messenger.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
18. He lost control of the narrative from the get-go
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:20 AM
Jun 2015

Even if the 1.77 million figure is a lie, say it's 50K-200K. He never knew exactly what he stole. How is that smart? Plus he did steal global surveillance documents and sought refuge in countries that figured in those disclosures.

None of this squares nearly with a whistleblower who was just trying to protect the common American citizen from government intrusion. And you can not deny that has made his legal situation more difficult at best.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
23. 'Proper whistleblowers' are made into examples
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:41 AM
Jun 2015

...of what not to do. They face years of court and prison and denouncement because they have left control of disclosure of even the very whistleblower and court procedures themselves in the hands of the perpetrators.

I'm not saying that cynically, as if 'that's the way things work'. I'm saying it as an observation of the policies of our government under Bush II and Obama.

So please spare us the pollyanna speech about the T's and I's that a proper whistleblower ought to tend to; That process has already been damaged beyond repair by a burgeoning police state.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
24. If you're saying Snowden is screwed, I agree with you
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jun 2015

Richard Clarke, who most people would agree is among the more reasonable national security establishmentarians, was asked the hero/villain question about Snowden. His answer: naïve. And the price of his return here will be a long prison sentence.

Most whistleblowers have confined themselves to a comparatively narrow issue and, I agree with you, still spend years unfairly paying for their principles. But there's a big difference between say, a John Tye, who did not reveal classified info to anyone who was not authorized to receive it, and Snowden.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
31. I knew it wouldn't be long before 'realpolitik' was introduced
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:42 AM
Jun 2015

by Snowden's detractors. Wanting powerful law breakers to pay for their crimes is also 'naïve'.

The press are implicitly authorized to see classified info if an insider will give it to them. There is no potential for real debate (or freedom of the press) without that; It doesn't mean they're not responsible, it means they play an important role in running the country.

Again, I don't know why a whistleblower has to 'confine' themselves (be timid) to suit some official ideal when government policy is to be both indiscriminate in its lawbreaking and wantonly punitive.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
5. Greenwald should not be mad at Snowden's critics, just as Greenwald has his opinion, we are entitled
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jun 2015

to our opinion. Now as a journalists Greenwald should respect our right to freedom of speech but maybe he has a double standard.

Now on to the subject at hand. Snowden needs to be responsible for his actions, this is on Snowden. He can't blame the US government for his actions, he did them himself. As much as the complaint is some feel the government has broken the Fourth Amendment, Snowden violated the Fourth Amendment, he accessed files containing phone call data and he did not obtain a warrant to do this. I admit there was a time in the Bush administration was gathering the records without a warrant but the Patriot Act was tweaked and they started getting the warrants. It was after the warrants was obtained Snowden gained employment which would give him access to these records. Between the "stories" Snowden and Greenwald produced there was changes, now I doubt either can remember the real truth and of course if they did I doubt it would be given.

After Snowden so "proudly" admitted he was the culprit of course charges of theft and espionage was brought. Snowden was not prepared to properly protect the computers in his possession and therefore should not have removed files in which he did not have the ability to protect. Anyone who is a hacker has the ability to obtain the information even though the files are encrypted so saying the files was encrypted was protection is a smoke screen.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
17. If it were valid criticism and not mudslinging
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 02:02 AM
Jun 2015

...and if they weren't lying about his husband's activities, then I could see your initial point.

The rest of your post, about the Fourth Amendment, is pure hogwash BTW... an authoritarian-minded attempt to throw the questioning back in the questioner's face. A person would have to believe that the NSA is the definition of privacy itself to buy into something so Orwellian.

"Snowden was not prepared to properly protect the computers in his possession..."

Bold propaganda.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
19. He is accusing the NSA of violations of the Fourth Amendment which provides wording requiring a
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:14 AM
Jun 2015

warrant before search, I agree, the NSA changed the operation in 2008 after the Patriot Act was changed. I did not agree with the information collection in which Bush was collecting without a warrant. Snowden violated the Fourth Amendment by accessing records without a warrant. Now if he can produce a warrant or if there is a paper trail I will withdraw my claim he has violated my Fourth Amendment rights. If Snowden did not violate the Fourth Amendment then the NSA did not violate the Fourth Amendment. In his first interview he claimed to be able to access all records and communications even the presidents information with an email address. This is his words, not mine. So the hogwash is not true on this point. When you are in positions such as he had he was still under the proper rules.

Did Snowden have the proper training to protect the computers he had in his position containing very sensitive information. I doubt this also, there are experts who knows how to protect the property, he really did not have a need to place the security of our nation at risk, again his decision.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
20. The government has a stunningly bad record on protecting its own property.
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:17 AM
Jun 2015

Let alone anybody elses. It is the government that has put national security at risk by collecting all this info and placing it on the internet where it will be stolen.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
21. Yes there seems to be violations, a lot by hackers, having said this, Snowden did not have the
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jun 2015

expertise to transport the computers with NSA files.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
22. It ought not EVER have been collected and put in one place on a computer.
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jun 2015

Computers are great places to steal things from.

Scattered, it cannot be stolen. Only the government can collect it all together and put it where one guy or a few people can steal it.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
25. The foremost authority on encryption accepts Snowden's technique
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:15 AM
Jun 2015

and his expertise. You should try reading Bruce Schneier's newsletter sometime.

An expert could do much worse than approval from Schneier and *still* be able to secure one or two small laptops against spies from any government.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
26. He cleaned the NSAs clock for them, stole their lunch, he was good enough to do that.
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:26 AM
Jun 2015

The big-shot spook infowarriors. And they still do not know what he got, and it's driving them nuts.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
27. Here's an alternative view from Wired, published today
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:27 AM
Jun 2015
China and Russia Almost Certainly Have the Snowden Docs

...while cryptography is strong, computer security is weak. The vulnerability is not Snowden; it’s everyone who has access to the files.

First, the journalists working with the documents. I’ve handled some of the Snowden documents myself, and even though I’m a paranoid cryptographer, I know how difficult it is to maintain perfect security. It’s been open season on the computers of the journalists Snowden shared documents with since this story broke in July 2013. And while they have been taking extraordinary pains to secure those computers, it’s almost certainly not enough to keep out the world’s intelligence services...

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/course-china-russia-snowden-documents/


He goes on to say China and Russia probably had the info anyway because they had almost certainly penetrated the NSA's networks prior to the files being stolen. Which, if true, would make the intel portion of whole enterprise a fool's errand, wouldn't it?

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
28. From your link:
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:30 AM
Jun 2015
but—regardless—the first sentence of the Times story simply makes no sense: “Russia and China have cracked the top-secret cache of files…”


And:

He has said that he encrypted the documents in such a way that even he no longer has access to them, and that he did this before the US government stranded him in Russia. I have no doubt he did as he said, because A) it’s the smart thing to do, and B) it’s easy. All he would have had to do was encrypt the file with a long random key, break the encrypted text up into a few parts and mail them to trusted friends around the world, then forget the key


Edit: he is saying the governments security is crap, not Snowden's encryption is flawed.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
33. Noted...and believeable as well
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:48 AM
Jun 2015

which is why many people, at the time the Snowden story broke, asked why is he "revealing" stuff that foreign governments probably already know (and which would mightily embarrass/piss off the US government). I always thought it was to ingratiate himself with his new hosts since he obviously never wanted to come back here.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
34. He revealed it because it ought not be collected.
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:52 AM
Jun 2015

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Because it will be stolen and misused, because of the 4th Amendment, whatever.

That is a good piece, I've never had any reason to question Schneier's integrity or honesty, and what he said there sounded right to me.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
37. So you're fine with other governments sitting on this knowledge
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jun 2015

...and keeping the press and American public in the dark?

The reasonable explanation is that he released info "that foreign governments probably already know" to the press to make it a matter of public discussion.

BeyondGeography

(39,385 posts)
39. lol...how else are they supposed to enjoy their dreary station in life
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 12:20 PM
Jun 2015

if not to have privileged access to info?

I don't like it, but this is what they do. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
38. Breaking: The FBI is investigating the Cardinals for hacking into the Astros’ computer system
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 12:20 PM
Jun 2015
This is what happens when you put important stuff on computers. Anybody that claims to be a computer security expert ought to know that the problem is people, people are not reliable. You can't trust them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141119195

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
29. Do you sincerely think encryption is going to protect files from hackers? Not for one minute
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jun 2015

do I think this protects. Again, lacking from expertise of transporting computers with stolen files from NSA or any other sensitive agency was a dumb thing to do, you know there is always waterboarding which could happen to the transporter and he would give up the information.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
36. OMG... Haaaaackers???
Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:53 AM
Jun 2015

Oh, no! Wait, let me get the Hollywood screenplay off the shelf so I can figure out what comes next...

While you're waiting, here's something to watch:

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