Haaretz: Edward Snowden, defender of democracy or accessory to autocracy?
Re. the reports over the weekend that Russia and China have cracked Snowden's files:
The British weeklys account is indeed far from conclusive. But Greenwalds detailed case for the defense continues to evade the central questions hovering over Snowdens head. If his sole intention truly was to inform American citizens of the way their government intrudes on their private communications, why did he spend months collecting a massive collection of classified documents (as many as 1.7 million according to some sources), often using passwords purloined from his colleagues? Wouldnt it have been enough to abscond with just the relevant ones? And when he began the big reveal, or more accurately, when journalists who received the documents began publishing them, why did the focus move away from solely privacy issues to practically any international spy program that titillated the media? (Take, for example, the eavesdropping of national leaders personal phones, including that of German Chancellor Angela Merkel.)
...Greenwald accuses Snowdens critics of not basing their allegations on facts, but fails to present his own facts to prop up his defense; he basically demands that we take Snowden and him at their word. Books published on the case and interviews Snowden has given recently present contradictions over how and when he decided to start hoarding documents and ultimately become a whistleblower, and how exactly he decided to travel to Hong Kong and meet Poitras and Greenwald. The presumption of Snowdens innocence and noble intentions is based on unquestionably accepting his and Greenwalds version of events, with all their contradictions, and believing that Moscow, against all logic and precedent, would just leave him to his own devices.
...Greenwald and his allies argue that, as Western journalists, their responsibility is to hold their own governments accountable. They also emphasize the fact that not many countries were willing to welcome Snowden with open arms. If he had leaked the documents while in the U.S. or a country with an extradition agreement with the U.S, he could have faced a similar fate to that of Chelsea Manning, the army intelligence analyst who passed hundreds of thousands of documents to the WikiLeaks organization and is now serving a 35-year sentence.
That argument may be valid, but it doesnt excuse the near-total disregard of the much worse trespasses on the Russian side especially not when theres a possibility that Snowden, at best, is serving their propaganda and, at worst, that the documents he stole have fallen into their hands.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.661207
marym625
(17,997 posts)Absolutely zero evidence of any harm done, or any documents leaked to other countries. Every thing that has been leaked had a purpose and our government should be held to task.
When we start allowing our government complete control over our citizens, when we disregard intrusions that should be done only to those that pose a threat, at best, and start condemning the people that have responsibly brought these violations to light at the behest of the same government that has committed such illegal acts, we deserve the police state we are living in.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)"Why did the focus move away from solely privacy issues to practically any international spy program that titillated the media?"
Do you have an answer?
marym625
(17,997 posts)Practices against US citizens, and citizens, it was also about the illegal practices, and immoral practices, of our government spying on innocent citizens of other nations as well as friendly government officials.
Where are your posts and concerns about what has been exposed that our country does? Where is your concern about a whistle blower being so vilified without any proof of the allegations? Who is more dangerous to you?
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)Countries spy on each other; my feelings weren't hurt. I'm still free to flap my gums as much as I want without fear of retribution. Meantime, Ed has spent the last two years in much more repressive environments, maybe not for him (yet), but for the average citizens there.
Snowden's espionage reveals were of far less interest to the average American citizen than those that focused on metadata. It's pretty clear by now to most people that he should have confined his file pilfering to that area.
My first reaction to the Snowden story was that this very young man really screwed up his life in ways he didn't appear to fully understand. I think that's being borne out.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)will be held at task.
marym625
(17,997 posts)When you have anything real, get back to me
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Here's my proof. No harm.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)to be, not reliable.
Ford_Prefect
(7,924 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)The article rightly praises Snowden's impact on personal privacy protections. He'd be pretty much bullet-proof if his disclosures were limited to that issue. They weren't, and he is in deep shit legally in this country because of it.
Ford_Prefect
(7,924 posts)As such I cannot tell what the article contains or the context of the remarks. Your opinion alone is not persuasive, no offense.
One must ask this given the past attacks and disinformation programs directed at Snowden and in response the releases made public in the Guardian and elsewhere.
cprise
(8,445 posts)If the government wants to collect billions of gigabytes of information about citizens' minute-by-minute activities, it shouldn't expect the disclosure about its activities to be a model of modest proportions.
In any case, we have several people with good reputations saying the documents number in the thousands, not millions. Are Poitras, Greenwald and The Guardian lying to us in unison?
Crucially, Snowden gave the documents to a small number of journalists and involved Laura Poitras specifically because she has a sufficient working knowledge of security and encryption. He did not dump them to the public.
I'd say it is your line of questioning that is tired. It implies that the press -- the Fourth Estate -- cannot be trusted with sensitive information. You should ask more questions about the government's creation of a surveillance-state quagmire in the first place. People like you are too ready to place the blame on the messenger.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)Even if the 1.77 million figure is a lie, say it's 50K-200K. He never knew exactly what he stole. How is that smart? Plus he did steal global surveillance documents and sought refuge in countries that figured in those disclosures.
None of this squares nearly with a whistleblower who was just trying to protect the common American citizen from government intrusion. And you can not deny that has made his legal situation more difficult at best.
cprise
(8,445 posts)...of what not to do. They face years of court and prison and denouncement because they have left control of disclosure of even the very whistleblower and court procedures themselves in the hands of the perpetrators.
I'm not saying that cynically, as if 'that's the way things work'. I'm saying it as an observation of the policies of our government under Bush II and Obama.
So please spare us the pollyanna speech about the T's and I's that a proper whistleblower ought to tend to; That process has already been damaged beyond repair by a burgeoning police state.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)Richard Clarke, who most people would agree is among the more reasonable national security establishmentarians, was asked the hero/villain question about Snowden. His answer: naïve. And the price of his return here will be a long prison sentence.
Most whistleblowers have confined themselves to a comparatively narrow issue and, I agree with you, still spend years unfairly paying for their principles. But there's a big difference between say, a John Tye, who did not reveal classified info to anyone who was not authorized to receive it, and Snowden.
cprise
(8,445 posts)by Snowden's detractors. Wanting powerful law breakers to pay for their crimes is also 'naïve'.
The press are implicitly authorized to see classified info if an insider will give it to them. There is no potential for real debate (or freedom of the press) without that; It doesn't mean they're not responsible, it means they play an important role in running the country.
Again, I don't know why a whistleblower has to 'confine' themselves (be timid) to suit some official ideal when government policy is to be both indiscriminate in its lawbreaking and wantonly punitive.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)to our opinion. Now as a journalists Greenwald should respect our right to freedom of speech but maybe he has a double standard.
Now on to the subject at hand. Snowden needs to be responsible for his actions, this is on Snowden. He can't blame the US government for his actions, he did them himself. As much as the complaint is some feel the government has broken the Fourth Amendment, Snowden violated the Fourth Amendment, he accessed files containing phone call data and he did not obtain a warrant to do this. I admit there was a time in the Bush administration was gathering the records without a warrant but the Patriot Act was tweaked and they started getting the warrants. It was after the warrants was obtained Snowden gained employment which would give him access to these records. Between the "stories" Snowden and Greenwald produced there was changes, now I doubt either can remember the real truth and of course if they did I doubt it would be given.
After Snowden so "proudly" admitted he was the culprit of course charges of theft and espionage was brought. Snowden was not prepared to properly protect the computers in his possession and therefore should not have removed files in which he did not have the ability to protect. Anyone who is a hacker has the ability to obtain the information even though the files are encrypted so saying the files was encrypted was protection is a smoke screen.
cprise
(8,445 posts)...and if they weren't lying about his husband's activities, then I could see your initial point.
The rest of your post, about the Fourth Amendment, is pure hogwash BTW... an authoritarian-minded attempt to throw the questioning back in the questioner's face. A person would have to believe that the NSA is the definition of privacy itself to buy into something so Orwellian.
"Snowden was not prepared to properly protect the computers in his possession..."
Bold propaganda.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)warrant before search, I agree, the NSA changed the operation in 2008 after the Patriot Act was changed. I did not agree with the information collection in which Bush was collecting without a warrant. Snowden violated the Fourth Amendment by accessing records without a warrant. Now if he can produce a warrant or if there is a paper trail I will withdraw my claim he has violated my Fourth Amendment rights. If Snowden did not violate the Fourth Amendment then the NSA did not violate the Fourth Amendment. In his first interview he claimed to be able to access all records and communications even the presidents information with an email address. This is his words, not mine. So the hogwash is not true on this point. When you are in positions such as he had he was still under the proper rules.
Did Snowden have the proper training to protect the computers he had in his position containing very sensitive information. I doubt this also, there are experts who knows how to protect the property, he really did not have a need to place the security of our nation at risk, again his decision.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Let alone anybody elses. It is the government that has put national security at risk by collecting all this info and placing it on the internet where it will be stolen.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)expertise to transport the computers with NSA files.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Computers are great places to steal things from.
Scattered, it cannot be stolen. Only the government can collect it all together and put it where one guy or a few people can steal it.
cprise
(8,445 posts)and his expertise. You should try reading Bruce Schneier's newsletter sometime.
An expert could do much worse than approval from Schneier and *still* be able to secure one or two small laptops against spies from any government.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The big-shot spook infowarriors. And they still do not know what he got, and it's driving them nuts.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)First, the journalists working with the documents. Ive handled some of the Snowden documents myself, and even though Im a paranoid cryptographer, I know how difficult it is to maintain perfect security. Its been open season on the computers of the journalists Snowden shared documents with since this story broke in July 2013. And while they have been taking extraordinary pains to secure those computers, its almost certainly not enough to keep out the worlds intelligence services...
http://www.wired.com/2015/06/course-china-russia-snowden-documents/
He goes on to say China and Russia probably had the info anyway because they had almost certainly penetrated the NSA's networks prior to the files being stolen. Which, if true, would make the intel portion of whole enterprise a fool's errand, wouldn't it?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And:
Edit: he is saying the governments security is crap, not Snowden's encryption is flawed.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)which is why many people, at the time the Snowden story broke, asked why is he "revealing" stuff that foreign governments probably already know (and which would mightily embarrass/piss off the US government). I always thought it was to ingratiate himself with his new hosts since he obviously never wanted to come back here.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)
Because it will be stolen and misused, because of the 4th Amendment, whatever.
That is a good piece, I've never had any reason to question Schneier's integrity or honesty, and what he said there sounded right to me.
cprise
(8,445 posts)...and keeping the press and American public in the dark?
The reasonable explanation is that he released info "that foreign governments probably already know" to the press to make it a matter of public discussion.
BeyondGeography
(39,385 posts)if not to have privileged access to info?
I don't like it, but this is what they do. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141119195
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)do I think this protects. Again, lacking from expertise of transporting computers with stolen files from NSA or any other sensitive agency was a dumb thing to do, you know there is always waterboarding which could happen to the transporter and he would give up the information.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)cprise
(8,445 posts)Oh, no! Wait, let me get the Hollywood screenplay off the shelf so I can figure out what comes next...
While you're waiting, here's something to watch: