for Greece to stay in the EU.

Will he bend the knee, or will he lead Greece out of the Euro?

Mainly they seem to be arguing over the haircut now, it's size, who gets to hold the bag, etc., a difficult subject as you can imagine. I think Merkel is in trouble too, I certainly hope so, she has been disastrous, not a good crisis leader at all.

But the need to keep Greece on the Western "side" will prevail, as it should.

expelled from the Euro.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-15/germans-tired-of-greek-demands-want-country-to-exit-euro

(note that was 4 months ago--things have gotten considerably more antagonistic since then)

So, she's already defying her voters by doing anything to keep Greece in the Euro.

'Optimistic' version is that the French are helping the Greeks draft their plan and greasing the skids so it can get approved once submitted.

'Pessimistic' would be that there's no room for an agreement--there's nothing Tsipras can/will submit that will pass in the Bundestag.

If they choose the money, that's OK with me, but it is folly to think that they can continue to keep Greece in debt-slavery and still keep the EU together too. People are already looking for the exit. This my way or the highway stuff just leads to the highway. Might as well get started.

they'd both be stronger with Greece charting its own course.

Cut them loose, then they can have honest negotiations over the debt.

Why did Argentina succeed in cutting a deal on its debt? Because they weren't dependent upon their creditors to keep the economy from imploding.

The biggest damage would be to the psyches of EUcrats whose dream of a united continent looks rather childish and silly at this point, and to those Greeks who had imagined themselves an indispensable part of Europe.

But that is not what I think is going to happen.

At this point it is clear (since the sacraficial goat FM was driven off into the wilderness) that Tsipras wants to stay in the EU, and that the EU is not of one mind with the German's instransgent petulance about the money they wasted on Greek politicians. Geeez, Greeks who are less than candid about their intentions, who could have expected that?

I would think they would know about the dangers of self-pity, the Germans, having destroyed themselves twice in that way, but self-pity is always fresh, I know I have to slap myself around from time to time.

and people not following the rules. Not a nation known for its improvisational view on life.

19 members of the Eurozone, all of them with different agendas. Seems to be a hardline bloc, including not only Germany, but also Slovakia, the Baltics, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium and (of course) Austria. Also a "let's cut a deal" bloc including Spain, France, Italy.

Greece is its own bloc.

I fear that the cowards will find a way to kick the can down the road rather than doing the best thing for everyone and addressing some rather obvious but also uncomfortable realities.

Greece is not obliged to follow Germany's rules, and vice-versa, that's why you have your own state, so you can make your own rules. The German's are wallowing in hubris, and it's going to get them, again.

The only one showing leadership is Tusk from Poland, which isn't even a member of the EZ yet.

We social apes are obsessed with social status and hierarchy. Who doesn't want a harem, a stable of obedient servants responsive to ones whims? And you have to have loyal minions to protect you too. Have you ever read about Tiberius and his "little fishies"?

And to do that, you have to be important, control lots of stuff, be able to dispense favors and punishment. etc.

But yeah, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Suetonius: Tiberius' Sex Life:

http://www.livius.org/su-sz/suetonius/tiberius.html

It was Greece that wanted to join the EU. It was Greece that wanted to give up a part of its decision-making and outsource that to the EU.

It was Greece that wanted to join the Euro. They wanted it so hard, they even cheated. It was Greece that wanted to outsource economic decisions about the currency to the EU.

Sorry to burst your bubble: Laws and contracts have a meaning.





I think the big difference is in the european vs the american mindset.
To the American, community is something that encroaches on you, something that holds you back from doing whatever you want. A necessary evil.
To the European, community means strength in collaboration, it means less ego and more attention to everybody else. A chance to achieve more.




And about the Nazi-comparisons... As a German, I would like to tell you:
Stick them up your smug, arrogant, world-savior-wannabe ass, because you have no idea what you are talking about, what Germans think like and what german politicians are like.

Which in fact, in the real world, happens all the time, debts are not paid, debtors welsh.

Getting angry doesn't help your case, (Edit: ) but it does help mine.

Well, I see from other comments that you would like Greece to leave the Eurozone, but that should be done in an orderly fashion! Can you imagine the consequences what happens when a nation brazenly brakes contracts and treaties it has signed? Currencies aren't built on gold, they are built on trust!

Who would trust Greece ever again if it breaks a contract it has signed? (And if Greece needs one thing, its people having the trust to think that sending money to Greece is a good idea.)

And I take it as given that things "should" be the way they are.

Go argue with someone else. Have a nice day.

"He refuses both to be humiliated by an EU that takes it for granted that their interests are superior to those of Greece..."

The EU has 20 or so member-states, the Eurozone has 10 or so member-states. I would dare to say that the interests of 9 countries are more important than the interests of 1 country.



"and to be reduced by the EU to an even more abject state of debt-laden poverty that will enslave them for years."

The Greeks have been cooking their books for at least 15 years now, since they applied for joining the Euro in 2000. They CHOSE to live with a debt whose consequences would enslave them for years if their house of cards should ever collapse.



"Given the EU’s contempt for democracy, the Greek ‘no’ vote has no significance."

What contempt for democracy? The legislative organ is democratically elected. And the executive organ consists of at least 1 representative from each member-state.

The greek NO has no significance because ALL THE EU-CITIZENS OUTSIDE OF GREECE also have the right to be heard. The EU will not be pushed around by an emotionally charged referendum where citizens of 1 member-state vote on whether or not to accept a proposal THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST ANYMORE.

cheeky in playing a weak hand.

Their interests do diverge widely from the other members, which means they probably should leave.

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Hopes that Greece can get a rescue deal that will prevent a catastrophic exit from the euro rose on Thursday, after key creditors said they were open to discussing how to ease the country's debt load, a long-time sticking point in their talks.

Greece's government is racing to finalize and submit a plan of reforms for its third bailout on Thursday to give creditors time to review it ahead of a summit of the European Union's 28 members on Sunday.

While creditors are waiting to see whether Greece will offer the full range of economic measures they have asked for, Donald Tusk, who chairs the EU summits, indicated that European officials would make an effort to address Greece's key request for debt relief.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_BAILOUT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-09-11-57-16

---

But this view cannot explain why both sides came as close as they did. The often-forgotten truth of the last few weeks is that Greece and the Troika very nearly secured a deal. From the outset, the policy differences between them have been minor, largely because of Syriza’s moderate demands.

In early 2015, there was a lot of sympathy — including from the IMF — for Greek debt relief. When Varoufakis argued that a crisis of insolvency should not be confused with a liquidity crisis, he was listened to. Even in the very final stages of the negotiations, the remaining differences were small in what was multi-billion euro loan agreement. In the recent referendum, heavyweight economic commentators like Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman argued for a ‘no’, saying the intellectual case for a revised bailout agreement and debt relief was solid.

The negotiations didn’t break down because of an unbridgeable gap between the North and South; creditors and debtors; the German ‘Ordoliberalism’ of Schäuble and Djisselbloem and Greek-style Marxism of Varoufakis and Tsipras. This gap has never existed. They broke down because Varoufakis repeatedly breached the Eurogroup’s etiquette. In doing so, he challenged the very foundations of the eurozone’s mode of governance.

The Eurogroup is not a democratic institution. Though it is made up of finance ministers from democratically elected governments, these ministers meet as individuals who are there on the assumption that they will build consensus, make compromises, and reach agreements amongst themselves.

http://mondediplo.com/blogs/the-real-sins-of-varoufakis

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- On his first full day as Greek finance minister, Euclid Tsakalotos faced 18 angry colleagues in a room in Brussels.

His eurozone counterparts were livid after the left-wing Greek government called and won austerity referendum that rejected their proposals for a rescue deal. Wearing a crumpled cotton suit, no tie and a gentle smile, Tsakalotos walked into the conference room on Tuesday carrying a notepad of hotel stationary with discussion points hand-written in English - easily readable by zoom lens - that included the entry "no triumphalism."

Such mild manners and diplomatic tact have helped the 55-year-old restore negotiations between Greece and its creditors after they had been strained to breaking point by his larger-than-life, confrontational predecessor, Yanis Varoufakis.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_FINANCE_MINISTER_PROFILE_?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-09-12-50-26

He kind of reminds me of Columbo.

Greece has admitted for the first time it is planning a €2bn gas pipeline with Russia.

The move is likely to worry the US, which has stepped up its involvement in Greece's debt talks with international creditors over fears the cash-strapped country could drop out of the single currency and come under the influence of its Cold War rival.

Panayotis Lafazanis, Greece's energy minister, said the move would be a key part of the country's "multi-faceted" foreign policy and would create 20,000 jobs, the Financial Times reported.

Figures released by Greece’s National Statistics Service on Thursday showed unemployment at 25.6pc in April.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11729433/Greece-finally-admits-2bn-gas-pipeline-deal-with-Russia.html

from article:

Because there are plenty of suitors in the wings.

The dust hasn’t yet settled on the outcome of the Greek referendum and Europe’s future depends on the willingness to find a solution to what seems an unsolvable problem: giving Greece some debt relief on the basis that its debt is unsustainable (as shown in the IMF’s Debt Sustainability Analysis) without creating a huge case of moral hazard and political tensions.

Outside Europe, the Greek saga surely looks incomprehensible, not to say absurd: How can a country with a nominal GDP of a bit less than €180 billion – approximately the size of British Columbia – threaten an economic bloc with 500 million people and an economy larger than China’s?

And yet, through financial and political interdependencies, Greece’s fate cannot be delinked from that of Europe’s monetary union – the bloc of countries that share the euro as a common currency – and even from the European Union itself.

http://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/grexit-would-trigger-major-political-crisis-eu

Germany’s finance minister conceded for the first time on Thursday that a write-off of some of Europe’s loans to Greece might be needed to get the country’s debt to a manageable level, but in the same breath ruled out such a step.

Presenting a paradox that is set to bog down last-ditch efforts to bail out Greece, Wolfgang Schaeuble said that European rules meant that writing off some loans to Greece was not doable, however desirable it might be for Athens’ finances.

The comments by Schaeuble appeared to suggest that he does not believe Greece’s financial problems can be solved within the euro zone and could weigh on negotiations as they enter a crucial phase.

“Debt sustainability is not feasible without a haircut and I think the IMF is correct in saying that,” Wolfgang Schaeuble told a conference in Frankfurt, before adding: “There cannot be a haircut because it would infringe the system of the European Union.”

http://cyprus-mail.com/2015/07/09/germanys-schaeuble-greece-needs-debt-haircut-but-we-cant-help/