Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:16 PM May 2018

Mueller will not charge Trump

Having recently left a position as a federal fraud and corruption prosecutor in Washington, D.C., to return to private practice, I have marveled at the many legal experts who have spent significant time debating whether a sitting president can be indicted and even what charges special counsel Robert Mueller may bring against President Trump. While these might be interesting legal questions, they are purely hypothetical. The Department of Justice (DOJ) has a longstanding policy stating that criminally prosecuting a sitting president is "unconstitutional."

That is a massively strong, mountainous statement, and the special counsel as a DOJ entity, subject to departmental policy and supervision, cannot overcome it.

But the experts like to posit: maybe that DOJ policy position is wrong (it has not been tested in court), and so what if the special counsel went rogue? The problem there is that visible federal prosecutors do not go rogue in violation of DOJ policy. It does not happen.

...

Any prosecutor knows that reaching the top of the chain in a significant conspiracy (i.e., "collusion&quot case is incredibly rare and that doing so requires the equivalent of a perfect game. A cooperator, or even a series of cooperators, is nothing more than a hitless first inning, given that humans are notoriously biased and unreliable. In the best of cases, a cooperating witness is a turncoat motivated to save his own skin. In the worst of cases - with which every prosecutor has dealt at some point - the witness takes the stand and is either too scared or confused to be believable, or denies critical facts or prior statements, leaving the government to impeach its own witness in a desperate attempt to save its case.

Given that flipped criminal cooperators are not enough, a prosecutor in a fraud or corruption case will, at a minimum, want strong and consistent documentary proof of both intent/knowledge and actions taken, and strong proof that the target individual is the one behind those documents. The difficult reality in significant organized conspiracy cases is that the boss at the top naturally does not leave a trail like this. If damning documentary evidence existed, the special counsel's office undoubtedly would have found it - and likely would have taken some significant action by this time.

I doubt the special counsel would sit on incredibly clear evidence of crimes, the kind sufficient to bring criminal charges, and not at least prepare a report to Congress on an expedited basis to seek to relieve us of an active provable international conspirator on the job.

While some folks might think that this president is the rare breed who could have recklessly left behind clear, uncontroverted evidence of corruption, prosecutors know that loose-cannon defendants present an even harder challenge. Intentions become very hard to establish when the mind of the actor is a demonstrably moving target.

...

But do not just take my word for it. I have privately asked many seasoned, trustworthy prosecutors and federal agents whether they think any charges could result from this investigation. The nearly universal answer? No chance.

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/386160-mueller-will-not-charge-trump?amp&__twitter_impression=true

A frustrating read on the Trump case, by someone more knowledgable than I am. And this guy was a district attorney for Obama.

8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,856 posts)
3. Probably not that either.
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:34 PM
May 2018

The U.S. Attorneys' Manual says:

9-11.130 - Limitation on Naming Persons as Unindicted Co-Conspirators

In the absence of some significant justification, federal prosecutors generally should not identify unindicted co-conspirators in conspiracy indictments. The practice of naming individuals as unindicted co-conspirators in an indictment charging a criminal conspiracy has been severely criticized in United States v. Briggs, 514 F.2d 794 (5th Cir. 1975).

Ordinarily, there is no need to name a person as an unindicted co-conspirator in an indictment in order to fulfill any legitimate prosecutorial interest or duty. For purposes of indictment itself, it is sufficient, for example, to allege that the defendant conspired with "another person or persons known." In any indictment where an allegation that the defendant conspired with "another person or persons known" is insufficient, some other generic reference should be used, such as "Employee 1" or "Company 2". The use of non-generic descriptors, like a person's actual initials, is usually an unnecessarily-specific description and should not be used.

If identification of the person is required, it can be supplied, upon request, in a bill of particulars. See USAM 9-27.760. With respect to the trial, the person's identity and status as a co-conspirator can be established, for evidentiary purposes, through the introduction of proof sufficient to invoke the co-conspirator hearsay exception without subjecting the person to the burden of a formal accusation by a grand jury.

The prohibition against naming unindicted co-conspirators should not extend to persons who have otherwise been charged with the same conspiracy, by way of unsealed criminal complaint or information. In the absence of some significant justification, federal prosecutors generally should not identify unindicted co-conspirators in conspiracy indictments. See USAM 9-16.500; 9-27.760.
https://www.justice.gov/usam/usam-9-11000-grand-jury#9-11.130

AJT

(5,240 posts)
4. So, all of this is for nothing? We will have 45 until at least the next election.
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:39 PM
May 2018

He won't be impeached because there won't be enough votes (2/3rds) in the senate for impeachment. How does our republic survive?

unblock

(52,325 posts)
6. it won't be for nothing because it was never only about donnie.
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:47 PM
May 2018

there are already 23 indictments and there will be more. he may nab people in his inner circle like jarvanka. that sort of thing is not trivial and not at all "for nothing".

moreover, he may have referrals to state attorneys general for state crimes.

finally, the political damage may be profound, even if congress doesn't impeach or the senate doesn't remove him from office.


my own suspicion is that he will eventually be indicted, though it may be for things that aren't really even on our radar, like good old, boring tax fraud.

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
5. Good news, actually, prevents Trump becoming a martyr
Tue May 8, 2018, 02:42 PM
May 2018

Paul Manafort’s other pro Russia candidate in Ukraine ran against prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko claiming she was a crook. I bet there were chants in Ukrainian and Russian lock her up. He was elected and Yulia went to prison. Yulia supporters went batshit crazy, revolted, Manafort’s guy had to flee to exile in Russia and Ukraine broke into two parts. Russia then captured the ports they wanted in the east, for their navy and oligarch businesses. Jailing a leader often kills democracy. That is just what happens, right or wrong. So calls to jail Trump or Hillary are unwise. The best way to kill off Trump is to vote him out of office. Then his cultists will just whimper and go away.

procon

(15,805 posts)
7. Doesn't that policy create a king who is above the law, not a president
Tue May 8, 2018, 03:27 PM
May 2018

who is bound by the rule of law?

I'm trying to find the logic here, but if the SCOTUS has not ruled that such charges are actually "unconstitutional", then that DOJ policy is just someone's official, but nonetheless, arbitrary statement which could be revoked by another official decision, right?

Even if there is a DOJ policy against prosecuting a sitting president, if Trump has committed serious crimes and if Mueller cannot charge him, then why even start an investigation? It's like a free Get Out of Jail card.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Editorials & Other Articles»Mueller will not charge T...