But considering my father, grandfather and great grandfather put on that uniform and could be one of the people in there, I would hope people would be respectful if they were, which means not acting like a "douchebag."

They gave their lives to defend their country, the people buried there, and my great grandfather. They deserve some respect.

That is the point.

Fuck that.

And her life isn't "ruined", either. She's just having a bad week.

she chose to post it on her FB page and for better or for worse, she needs to accept the consequences of that

anyone with half a brain would have realized that posting it was a bad decision especially with the way employers and others are looking at their employees' FB pages and the such

She did the posting, she assumes the consequences for her own stupidity and recklessness.

Kids who go out and DO something with their lives in spite of odds against them prove authority wrong.

Kids who speak truth to power prove authority doesn't always get it right.

Kids who act like douchebags where they should be respectful aren't challenging authority, they are proving they still need to be supervised because on their own they revert to stupid.

It isn't JUST about where she did this, it's the fact that her whole fricken generation is acting like a bunch of douchebags and they need to knock it the F off.

It isn't an "age" thing perse, though we can forgive youth much due to inexperience and lack of historical perspective.

But about half the younger generation walks around thinking they own the place because of how America is supposed to be and as long as they have theirs, bleep y'all. They will latch on to any reason for their own success and someone else's failure in a way that blames the people who aren't being given the advantages by skin color or being born into wealth and power.

Their generation didn't live through or really study (except the excellent ones you rightly point out are the exceptions) what OPPRESSION REALLY IS. Wouldn't understand how being pulled up out of the slave ranks to OVERSEER is a BAD thing. Most of today's generation would think they got promoted instead of sentenced to hell. They have the guts to disrespect the sacrifices of others for no apparent reason, but will defend true oppressors because someone on Facebook said Obama is a liar.

Get offa my lawn!

I dont disagree with most of your points. But Its not just the younger generation. Its all the generations. Older generations by and large are terribly disrespectful of minorities, and of youth. The middle generations tend to be terribly disrespectful of women. Younger generations tend to be disrespectful of the older ones. Among many other disrespects we show each other which are by and large determined within the various groupings we create with each other.

I have been working with multiple age groups for going on three decades now.

By 'disrespecting' I am not talking about the general youth versus older questioning of experiences, authority, and behaviors. I am also not talking about how older generations may still have a great deal of latent racism or sexism.

I am specifically referencing a generation that by and large in their twenties and now early thirties grew up with very little discipline, and witnessed poor boundaries not only in their homes but in their schools, then colleges, and then work-places. They had access to far more 'social networking', reality programming, and constant 24/7 always-on internet connection than previous ones.

The upside is an exposure to multiple perspectives and viewpoints. You are no longer just a part of a small grouping as you put it but truly see that the world has millions of voices, expressions, and behaviors.

It seems positive right? Well, the downside is that, if it is ok to watch Donald Trump be an ass, then it is ok for little Bobby to be one too. If it is ok to watch Sookie have poor boundaries and swear a blue streak, then why can't little Susan either?

The permissiveness that Ms Stone's father showed when he stated that his daughter had always been this way was rather appalling. He never taught her to show respect towards others. He never taught her that doing so is the foundation of empathy. When the foundation is established then those deeper issues of sexism, racism, bigotry, intolerance, etc. are far more easily addressed and begun to be eliminated. But if we, as a culture, constantly say and act that it is ok for the youth as well as any other generations to act without respect, without empathy, without dignity, and yes, a little bit of social grace, then expect more Tea Partiers', more applauding for saying let the uninsured die without medical care, cutting of food stamps for families desperately struggling in this economy, etc.

Individual psychological maturity leads to good social maturity. By age 30, one should understand that disrespectful behavior that might seem 'right' or even 'funny' to you as an individual may not be 'appropriate' social behavior with others. This can act as a learning experience for this young woman.

in her peer group for my grandma to get pissed when my little sisters vegetarian friend wont eat her split pea and ham soup(especially prepared to be ok, no chicken or beef, doncha know), or to talk about how the black folks on the bus were a bit alarming, that's less disrespectful than a dunce to be a dunce in a cemetary?

My contention is that the disrespect of our youth is connected to the disrespect of our elders. And every other group in our society. A generation of empathetic, caring, children is not the natural result of a bunch of selfish jerks having kids.

Yes, it is not equivalent.

Those may be excellent examples of disrespectful behavior but it is limited in scope. In such an intimate family situation, one can address it immediately and directly.

But ultimately, I think you missed my point. I am not talking about individual members in all age groups, I am discussing large group behavior. The feedback loop now between those 'selfish jerks' as you correctly call them has now led to a generation of youth that lacks boundaries, empathy, and respect in general - there are always exceptions. If adults then allow and even applaud such behavior as others seem to be doing with this 30 year old woman, then it re-enforces such behavior. No change occurs, then another generation becomes parents with not just exceptions but a majority lacking those traits and qualities. Several generations hence, I fear genuinely to see where we will be as a culture.

The focus or way of expressing it changes from generation to generation. But people are people, and each new generation has been taught that disrespect by disrespectful people. There is no change. Each generation is neither somehow "better" or "worse" than the one before. The world is neither going to hell, nor is it evolving into utopia. At least, not any more than it ever was.

Hitler and Ghandi coexisted on this earth. And the same generation that gave us this lady and much of reality tv also gave us the Arab spring and the occupy movement that is currently feeding those still at odds due to Sandy. They are not without empathy and respect any more than the generation before. or after. They are different. And the same.

History simply proves your beliefs wrong.

There are generations within cultures through out history that have been better or worse than previous or those to follow.

Because you choose not to observe it or to have studied it does not mean it has not occurred.

Pleasure chatting with you.

Ive read more than my share, though to be fair most of it has been fiction. Each western generation since Christ has believed it was the last, special one, that the world will end on its watch. I would not be shocked to find that it was a common theme of many cultures before that either. Each generation has committed atrocities, and each one has had its special moments of extreme selflessness. Each has had its bit of progress and its loss of civility. That is what I see in my studies of history, both recent and further back.

It has been good chatting with you, even if we disagree.

My approach is psycho-historical, and it is not teleological nor is it apocalyptic.

I never bet on the 'end of the world' however I recognize that historically cultures, societies, countries, empires, and even religions end and begin.

My apocalyptic reference was to illuminate the point. Each generation thinks it is special, different, dare I say Better than the ones before and after it.

And each generation gives us the next. And humans remain humans, without all that much change. Going back to the earlier conversation, one type of disrespect waxes and another wains.

My view, I would argue, is more historically based. We are still here. No generations complaint that the next is going to hell in a handbasket has turned out to be accurate. And, so far, no generations complaint that the previous one has doomed humanity, has turned out accurate either.

From your avatar choice, I assume you revere Gandhi. The point you seem to be making rests in a philosophy of cyclical human history where nothing really changes and everything is just the same eternally. You see each generation past or present or future as all the pretty much the same. There are 'good' within it, and there are 'bad' within it. This is very Eastern.

My view point is pre-Post Modern classically Western in origin. History in China and India is vertical based on their underlying philosophies. History in the West is horizontal - civilizations rise and fall. Generations can and do play a major role in that process. Some give us great men like the Founding Fathers. Other generations lead us into devastating wars. They are interconnected and yet still discrete in their views, their actions, and the consequences of those actions.

I am sorry. Some generations do act as a whole class 'better' than others. Some do act 'worse' as a whole class. This has affected our history in the West since Greece & Rome. We may still be here as you say, and yet, things do indeed die. Civilizations do die and completely disappear. Egypt is no more as it was. The Mayan culture & civilization are dead and gone. Things do end.

Is there going to be an earth-shattering apocalypse if this young generation (in general) in the West is horribly insensitive, narcissistic, and un-empathic? No, of course not. But will a generation that acts like that produce negative consequences for the culture or society that they live in as they age? Absolutely.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree.

That was the whole point. Look at me treating this president lika a n!&&(r! A right-winger even mentions the word respect, tell it to STFU!

Lying blatantly, provably, shamelessly to the American public while aggressively posturing toward the president of the United States.

Or a police officer pulling a car over because it looks too nice to legitimately belong to the people inside of it.

Or any number of other things. Is disrespect a result of selfishness, and is selfishness ingrained into what we are culturally taught, reenforced many hundreds of times beyond what we might naturally feel just as existing beings with a sense of self preservation? I tend to think yes.

What I AM grappling with is HOW to help someone who chooses to be ignorant. Maybe the public shame is the only weapon at this point. I don't know.

I mean, what is public shame anymore? Does Snooki feel shame for her activities being public? About about Ann Coulter? The Bush girls? Petraius? Delay?

Anymore the only shame is if it costs you something. And even then, money can usually buy you back in to success.

Assign an age is weird

People are people. Different groups tend to express their "d-bag" differently, but its all the same thing, and most all of us do it at some level and at some time toward some one.

I still stand by right to do what she did.

I agree with the "creepy" part.

It just wasn't in good taste.

Not all that funny either. Maybe to an 8 year old.

Doesn't mean people aren't going to have opinions about seeing everything eaten for Thanksgiving making your anatomy bulge in lovely places.

Stupid is stupid. Say what you want but don't whine when people tell you it's disrespectful.

The last paragraph shown here above is outstanding.

that ties her juvenile, tasteless action to her employers, who promptly fired her because of the negative publicity. Sure she has a right to do what she did - she's not being arrested - but do stupid actions sometimes have dire consequences? You bet they do.

OMG!! But it was aimed the military!!!

We can't do that!!! They are above everything!!!

Otherwise, it's just their own private joke. Not that I think it is funny (unless you are 13 - no disrespect to most 13 year olds).

And I think posting that showed a lack of being able to think actions through. Since we do have a rather creepily unquestionable military worship in this country especially, she should have known not to do that and no joke would be tolerated. She should have screamed in a library and put it on Youtube or something the culture could deal with.

We must only have art that pleases our senses and music that is approved of.

We must not under any circumstance remove ourselves from our comfort bubble.

Now please, go shopping.

one should exercise that right. Lindsey Stone most certainly has the right to rip on whomever she chooses, but there are often consequences--Other people have the right to exercise the same --against her. There are times when social decorum is necessary and this is one of them, equate it to yelling "You lie" while the President of United States is giving the the State of the Union address. Shock and outrage followed that particular outburst--Joe whatever is his name was/is had a right to speak his mind, but it certainly wasn't the time or place to let his words fly. I think the greater question here is one of why it is so many people seem to lack an understanding what is socially responsible in certain situations.

I don't think losing her job was fair. This however is definitely a grand scale lesson in how nothing ever stays private on the web. That old meme of think before you post should be a major take away from this whole escapade. The fall out cost her a job and lord only knows what else may unfold in her future because of one very poor choice.

freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either"

-- Mark Twain

There are so many things wrong with this essay so where to start.

First, yes, teenagers do indeed act out in stupid rebellious ways not thinking about the consequences of what they are doing. This woman is not a teenager. She is a thirty year old woman.

Second, she was on a business trip and not a personal one. In most professions, it is appropriate to be held accountable for our expressions and actions when representing our company or our professions.

Third, this is not retribution. This is simply the natural consequences for her behavior. She is free to make an ass out of herself and post it on Facebook, a public venue. Her employer is free to disassociate themselves from her via termination of her employment because of those actions. You are free to offer your opinion on this. So are those of us who still applaud that there is still some sense of decency and appropriate public behavior as an adult in the social media driven 'oversharing' generation.

Finally, this really has very little to do with the military or with questioning institutions or authority. She acted out a prank in an inappropriate way at a place of respect. I may not be a Christian, but I will certainly not go into a Catholic church and yell "Fuck the Pope". It is unbecoming of an adult, rude, and boundaryless.

If she has a problem with war and the MIC then get involved in politics, volunteer at a VA hospital, or go to a rally protesting drone strikes. That is how adults express healthy and good questioning of institutions and authority. Don't try to tell us that her adolescent inappropriate buffoonery was somehow a radical First Amendment questioning of authority when it obviously was not.

So she lost her job, thousands of people, through no fault of their own, lost theirs too. Are their lives "ruined"? Hopefully they'll have the strength an courage to carry on after their unfortunate life event. Yes indeed she's paying a stiff price in national ridicule and the loss of her job for a prank more suited to a 15yr old HS sophomore than a 30yr old adult. However, actions have consequences and she's learning that now. Too bad for her she didn't learn it 15 years ago.

As for the last paragraph in the article, I disagree entirely. Nobody is "blindly adoring" the military in this episode. To state that is disingenuous at best. This is about respect for sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, friends and neighbors who answered the call to serve their fellow Americans and made the ultimate sacrifice. Of course questioning institutions and individuals, including the military and its troops, is good and healthy, but you know what else is good and healthy? Exhibiting a sense of respect. There are damn few things left in this world that people respect, the memory of fallen soldiers should not be on the "outdated" list. Perhaps if Lindsey Stone had shown some of that respect instead of allowing her right to free expression to run wild, she would not be in this situation. Maybe that's a lesson that other 15yr old HS sophomores may find valuable.

Fee Christake! Some people still need to be educated about the awesome and sometimes unexpected power of the Internet.

I suppose if she thought it would have been cute to have her picture taken while pissing on one of the graves there, some here would even defend that. She got exactly what she deserved.

God, you've got to love the logic behind this one.

1. The military fought for your freedoms.
2. Now that you've got these freedoms, don't use them, unless in a socially acceptable way.

First, let's get something straight. The military does not fight for your freedom to do anything. They fight to protect the interests of those who bought and paid for the best representation that money can buy. And your freedoms get in the way of that. Why do you think they cracked down on OWS so hard?

The people who fight for your freedoms are the people who actually practice said freedom. People like OWS. And people like Lindsey Stone. Even if the practice of said freedom borders on the juvenile. Be willing to lose your job. Be ready to be pepper sprayed. If you want freedom, get out on the street and use it and demand it. That's the only way to guarantee your freedom will be around in the future. Don't wait for anyone, especially the military, to grant it to you.

And... I absolutely disagree with this, by TM99.

If she has a problem with war and the MIC then get involved in politics, volunteer at a VA hospital, or go to a rally protesting drone strikes. That is how adults express healthy and good questioning of institutions and authority. Don't try to tell us that her adolescent inappropriate buffoonery was somehow a radical First Amendment questioning of authority when it obviously was not.

Are you seriously trying to compare the juvenile inappropriate photo op of a narcissistic 30 year old woman with those of the Occupy movement?

Seriously?

You quoted me and yet you obviously didn't comprehend what I wrote. "Go to a rally protesting drone strikes" is equivalent to going to Wall Street and protesting against social injustice. Those young and old men and women did take risks in an adult way no matter what their age. They did exercise free speech. They did risk and suffer arrests. Some were treated horribly by the 'authority' including beatings and pepper sprayings.

No one took away any freedoms here. No one is saying the military is all good. No one arrested her. No one attacked her with pepper spray. No one beat her. No one ordered a drone strike on her. Her employer fired her for inappropriate public behavior which they had funded, and were well within their rights to do so.

She did not take this photo and post it to Facebook as some sort of high minded anti-military statement. Can those of you making this false equivalency not get that? It was even there in her apology when she stated it was just a prank. Stop making her out to be some sort of social justice hero worthy of respect and empathy for the consequences of her actions. When she demonstrates that to others then she will receive it in kind.

But what really struck me was the other article link within, also written by a veteran. Thanks for posting

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/opinion/the-permanent-militarization-of-america.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

Yeah, right.


This woman is 30 years old. This isn't some juvenile prank.

Anything done publicly to insult conservatives can lead to severe abuse. I was recently on a 90-minute airline flight with about 100 people, including 4 soldiers in uniform. The cockpit came on the intercom and asked us to applaud the soldiers in thanks - 4 times in 90 minutes. that is indeed a little creepy.

A 30 year old is no longer a youth. It is time for her to understand the sensibilities of others and act accordingly.
I would suggest she volunteer at her local homeless vet center and turn this mistake into someone else's good fortune.

Since Lindsey Stone has not been brought up on Federal charges for her behavior, one can assert that her First Amendment rights have not been violated. The same First Amendment protects those who castigate her for her tasteless actions.

I'm pretty anti-authority myself. When I expressed my feelings inappropriately (as I did on at least one occasion in the Army,) I was sanctioned for it. There are better, and more (or is it less?) worthy targets for anti-authority scorn.

She didn't think her actions through...

I'm assuming she is, otherwise why would this be so bloody newsworthy?

thereby starting an endless stream of internet outrage that has so far cost her stuff like her job

Actions have consequences. Being a "douchebag" (as she calls herself) in a public setting can have consequences. She is obviously one of those types of people that delights in saying "Fuck you" as loudly as possible in a public setting to draw attention to herself. Now she's the center of attention, but she's not liking the attention she's getting.

As the old street saying goes "Don't start none, won't be none."

If you're going to broadcast proof of you being a douchebag in the name of free speech, I have just as much right to visit whatever consequneces on you that are legal, because you're a douchebag.

What is the BFD over this picture? It's okay, but surely nothing worthy of going after someone's life and livelihood over said pic. It feels like I am reading a thread on freeperville or something.

Whatever happened to, "I do not agree with what you say but I defend with my life your right to say it"?

And I do defend her because she does have the right to say whatever she wants, especially when it comes down to defending her against assholist responses to it. [It's a new technical term]

Did everyone go read the actual post about linked in the OP? Even the former military person is creeped out by the reactions over this pic.

And yes, I am one of those who only respects the person in the uniform, not the uniform itself. If you are a douche bag in a uniform, you are still a douche bag. Don't those deserve to be hounded for being douche bags or is only females who take a picture that you don't agree with?

I still don't get it - the horrible responses to the pic. And yes, my former marine DH agrees with me. He is really creeped out by the uniform worship the republican blanket that has been thrown over the country. But this is not a poll or oneupmanship - it is freedom of speech plane and simple. Don't like it, don't read it or look at it. Who knows, you may be in this exact same place in the future, over something so simple and stupid, and you too may be hounded out of your place of employment because other people didn't like.

Like Dharma's mom said - when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.

I can exercise my right to free speech by ridiculing, scorning and taking whatever actions within the law that I deem appropriate to express my opinion of your being a douchebag. Are you going to deny my right to free expression? Don't think so.

Just because you have the right of free speech, doesn't mean its consequence free. It just means that you can't be prosecuted under the law for what you say. There isn't anything to prevent others from exercising their right to free speech, to express their opinions of you being a douchebag. It's all within the law and both are protected by the First Amendment.