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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 07:26 AM Jul 2014

Life in a war zone – Ukraine

It isn't yet dusk, but the sky to the south is darkening with an approaching storm as Denis Dragusevich and Zhenya Kucheryavaya play with their three small boys in a dusty apartment-building playground in Slavyansk. When a loud rumble breaks through the air, their neighbours jokingly wonder if it is "thunder or hail" – a reference to the BM-21 "Hail" rocket launcher that government forces have fired into the city, along with howitzers and mortars.

"The three-year-olds, when the bombing starts, they point to the bathroom. They already know," Zhenya says, explaining that the family hides there during the frequent shelling. "In the future, these will be the children of war."

After pro-Russian rebels declared their own republics in eastern Ukraine in April, Slavyansk quickly became the focal point of the fighting between government forces and the steadily growing militias. Since the end of May, Kiev's "anti-terrorist operation" – even the name is repulsive to the people of the east – has shelled the city on a near-daily basis, hitting dozens of residential buildings and reducing most of the suburb of Semyonovka to rubble. One local firefighter told me his brigade works five times as much as before because of the shelling. The conflict has now killed at least 423 people, both fighters and civilians, and displaced 46,100, according to recent United Nations figures.

"Everyone talks about the same thing, about when the war will end," says Katya, who lives in a two-room apartment with her mother and her eight-year-old son, Gleb. The distribution centre where she worked has closed down, and instead she spends half the day hauling water to the apartment. In the afternoons and evenings, she sits and talks with neighbours.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/life-in-a-war-zone-ukraine

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Life in a war zone – Ukraine (Original Post) dipsydoodle Jul 2014 OP
Winning hearts and minds /nt jakeXT Jul 2014 #1
The media will not cover this JayhawkSD Jul 2014 #2
are you suggesting that Ukraine's democratically elected government geek tragedy Jul 2014 #3
Tense problem, first. Igel Jul 2014 #4
Oh good lord. JayhawkSD Jul 2014 #5
I understood your sarcasm. You were snidely suggesting geek tragedy Jul 2014 #6
My my, there are som thin skins here. JayhawkSD Jul 2014 #7
 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
2. The media will not cover this
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 10:34 AM
Jul 2014

because the people who are dying are not "on our side." They are nasty foreigners fighting against the democratic and generous government which we support, unlike in Syria where the noble rebels are being slaughtered without mercy by an evil dictator and are serving the causes of truth, justice, democracy, humanity, godliness, cleanliness, chivalry, women's rights, beauty, clean air and water, and sartorial decency.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
3. are you suggesting that Ukraine's democratically elected government
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 11:25 AM
Jul 2014

is comparable to the dictatorship of Assad?

Please note that there was no violence in Ukraine until Russia invaded Crimea, and then started sending tanks and Russian troops sub rosa into East Ukraine. You would do well to point the finger in the direction of the imperial bully actually carrying out the violence.

Igel

(35,350 posts)
4. Tense problem, first.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 02:24 PM
Jul 2014

The media did cover this. The problem is who to believe: The Russian media said that only the Ukr forces used Grads. The Ukr forces said they didn't use Grads against towns. But that the "rebels" sited Grads, mortars, etc., in residential areas. For the latter there's enough video and reports to say that the rebels did site artobstrel units in residential areas and are simply lying or they aren't in good command of a lot of the Chechen forces fighting for them. Not much video to say that the Ukr forces have been using rocket-propelled artillery against civilian centers--most of the reports are from residents *inside* the towns, and when the artillery goes a couple of kilometers you know you're not talking eye-witnesses but people who have been told this or surmise it.

One site did a masterful job of showing some of the video that "proved" the Ukr army fired Grads at a residential part of Lugansk. They pointed out that the angle that the rockets were landing at was too low for them to have gone far. The launch site had to be well within rebel territory. Later another video of the same attack showed up. Now you see rockets launched away from Luhansk towards the Ukr army. A minute later you see rockets launched in the opposite direction from the same site, towards Luhansk. First report in the Russian press was this was an unmotivated attack against Luhansk. Then an attack against Luhansk forces that missed the mark. Then it was a provocation--the nasty Ukr forces managed to send a column of armed vehicles deep into rebel-held territory for the purpose of attacking Luhansk. (Unless you pay attention to how a story evolves, you're duped. Take the Savchenko POW/criminal in Moscow. The initial story was that Ukr forces fired on the journalists at a checkpoint intentionally. The journalists were wearing vests that said "Press" and were protected. Clearly visible to those firing, the killing was a murder, a war crime against known reporters. Now the claim is that Savchenko is responsible for their deaths. While flying a chopper, she saw the checkpoint. She radioed the checkpoint's coordinates to those firing mortars--which only makes sense if those doing the attacking couldn't see the checkpoint. But it raises the question--if she did this, and that's going to be a bear to prove by non-Russian standards, could she see their press vests? But the conclusion--that it was an intentional murder of a Russian reporter, is still considered valid.)

Today the news out of Lugansk was that local pressure got the rebels to re-site a launch site from a school courtyard to a place near a checkpoint. Another was that locals were taking cover because the LPR launched some salvos at a Ukr force checkpoint near Metalist (just north of Luhansk). The problem was the reports said that the salvo was launched from a "thickly populated" area, and that kind of thing either says, "Please, use human shields for protection" or "Please, bomb us. The Russia 1 crew's a few blocks away, waiting."

Media law says that you don't bomb civilian areas or infrastructure, he who throws the bomb that kills civilians is a murderer. International law says that it's a war crime to use civilian structures or locations for military use--and to do so immediately converts them into military targets, which can be attacked if the risks of collateral damage are outweighed by the military value of the target. We firmly know this and use it to our PR advantage when those we don't like are the ones being killed--IDF troops in a school, NATO troops in a mosque courtyard. But if the right people are in a school, using a religious building as an arms dump or using a hospital as a base of operations, then it's something that's impermissible to attack. Yet the rule stands: You use a civilian site to launch an attack, you're responsible for civilians deaths that result. Put anti-aircraft artillery on a college building, you've rendered it a target and assumed responsibility for that civilian infrastructure's demise. Even if you're a "freedom fighter" and get killed as a result. Use your living room as a command post and if your family gets blown up, you've killed them just as much as if you took a knife to their throat.

The other problem is that this is from 7/5, and so it's past news. The town was surrendered to the Ukr forces. Now, depending on who you talk to it was to spare the civilian population the horrors of war, it was part of a strategic redeployment that allows the use of partisan tactics and for some of the hundreds of boobytraps to kill nasty fascists, or it was part of a retreat because the Russian in charge of the town couldn't hold out and ran--leaving behind some hostages, a lot of munitions but with truckloads of spoils of war. The forces of good are still removing boobytraps and landmines from roads, railroads, public buildings; finding weapons caches in basements and abandoned stores; and probably will do so for weeks to come. Meanwhile, those basements are stores are open for civilians to go into. And landmines laid by the forces of good have already killed civilians in other parts of the promised land. (And even though they may be seen laying the landmines, they insist that Right Sector forces carrying hundreds of landmines have penetrated deep behind enemy lines, dug up roads to bury them and then put down fresh asphalt, or placed the mines in farmers' fields ... all during the night. Only card-carrying natsboly and KP-DNR and KP-LNR folk seriously believe this.)

 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
5. Oh good lord.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jul 2014

Did the lengthy list of silly causes, including "sartorial decency" no less, not suggest to either of you that I was engaging in sarcasm?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
6. I understood your sarcasm. You were snidely suggesting
Sat Jul 12, 2014, 12:34 AM
Jul 2014

that supporting rebels against Assad but bit supporting the incognito Russian paratroopers in East Ukraine is an act of hypocrisy. I countered that it is a case of different things being treated differently, indeed the Syria and Ukraine situations are so different as to make a comparison useless.

 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
7. My my, there are som thin skins here.
Sat Jul 12, 2014, 01:24 AM
Jul 2014

I was taking a shot at the media, not th original post.

Have you decided that you have something personal against me and are going to make cheap shots at everything I comment?

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