Video & Multimedia
Related: About this forumCelebrating, shouting "Perfect", as the burned bodies are taken from the building
They stayed and had a party afterwards, singing songs of "Glory" and shouting "Molodetz"! (Perfect!), as the burned bodies are taken past them.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Could someone please explain to me what is going on?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)After skirmishes where several people were shot on both sides.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/odessa-massacre-pushes-ukraine-to-the-edge-towards-a-larger-destructive-conflict/5380360?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=odessa-massacre-pushes-ukraine-to-the-edge-towards-a-larger-destructive-conflict
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)He is telling everyone to cool it. I think that Putin needs to cool it too and understand that neither Russia nor the West Europeans nor Americans have any interest in creating a situation in which the extreme right can take charge of Ukraine and the gas.
International cooperation is what is needed. And Putin needs to join with Merkel and Obama to facilitate the elections in Ukraine and work together to stop the violence and extremism.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Despite what the media is playing, most parties are not tied to Russia, but rather afraid/unaccepting of the interim government. There has been a lot of word play around federalizing (like the US), but in reality Kyiv has not yet givin an inch and in fact they have been incredibly stubborn and inflexible (despite claiming the opposite to confuse things). Even if that inflexibility is not presented in our media, Ukrainians fully understand that, and the very active role that Svoboda and Right sector have been allowed.
A *serious* offer of federalization would keep Ukraine united and allow the "states" to protect themselves from neo-nazis that are very much in play and provoking violence. I am convinced of that. I think the US is open to that, but Kyiv said on April 10th that they simply would not accept it. They need to be persuaded otherwise or this will likely continue to heat up. At least that is my feeling.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Obama suggested that. We shall see whether Putin is willing. He may just want to stir up trouble to excite his own people and to have an excuse for a war in a place where he has a geographical advantage. We shall see.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)It still sounds like unfortunately we are stuck in the same narrative.
It was kind of depressing to see.
I had hoped that I had missed something significant.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)where the states can even establish their own foreign policy! Even before Russia proposed anything, Ukraine was working on policies that would decentralize power - however not to level that Russia proposed with the goal of preventing Ukraine from ever being a unified country.
Not to mention your summary is completely inaccurate as to Odessa. The Pro-Russians were the first to attack - a peaceful march. As to "nazis" they are on BOTH sides.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)We shall accept by no means any appeals for federalisation of Ukraine, all the more so that these come from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of a foreign state, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk pointed out Thursday, April 10, speaking at the 7th Kyiv Security Forum On the Fault Line: Security In-Between.
That quote is from his foundation website.
You are right that it may not have been right sector that started the initial clashes. I am still looking for a neutral or source that I can trust for the full version of the events leading to the fire.
Definitely people were killed on both sides in the initial clashes.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)That indeed would be tricky. I am not sure that is an unreasonable thing to ask, considering one of the major differences between East and West is on that issue and most of the income in the East, and in the rest of the country, came from trade with Russia. Factories are now closing down and mass layoffs are occurring in the east, which doesn't seem like that will help with stability either.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)Europe and Russia. There is no reason that that can not be acceptable all over the country - via a central government policy.
The key thing though is that neither Russia or the EU/US should make decisions about the shape of their government -- Ukraine needs to do that and that can start only if everyone has a voice and things become more peaceful. (It is US policy, by the way, that Ukraine needs to define their own government.)
newthinking
(3,982 posts)As has been happening recently?
I agree, at this point a new election to set back the clock and get back to Democracy, but there was no way that even without what is happening in the East, as long as extreme nationalists were allowed to intimidate, beat, and frighten, as happened last month to the opposition candidates, it could not have been fair.
I am not sure the current government is interested in having a fair election. They will need to be pressured more to get things in order. They don't really seem much interested in finding common ground. And that is a real problem.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Rhiannon12866
(205,469 posts)SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)The pro-Kiev protesters outnumbered the anti-Maiden protesters, and after some altercations involving gunfire with some casualties, the pro-Kiev group forced the anti-Maiden group back, where they took shelter in a Trade Union Office. Apparently both sides have been exchanging Molotovs, but the Kiev group seized the fire trucks and barricaded people in. Sometimes they even beat the burned people who made it out of the building. Some of the Kiev group tried to stop this, but others apparently wanted to kill everyone inside.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)which of course kind of puts it in a different place then intense skirmishing.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)You ignore that the anti Maiden people attacked the Kiev supporters who were marching. You also ignore that many report the Russians built the barricades to keep the Kiev people out.
What you have written is inflamatory and people should wait for proof -- there are even reports that the Russians accidentally started the fire.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)throwing Molotovs onto the already burning building, and cheering on the immolation of their enemies. It's inflammatory because of what happened. I'm sure the Defense Ministry, headed by a Svoboda politician, will investigate thoroughly and find that all responsibility lies with pro-Russian extremists. And some people here will believe it, and attack others as conspiracy theorists.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)The Russians will likely cross the border, and give the PNACers in both Parties the opportunity to inflict full sanctions on them, just as planned. A hot war would be insane, but an economic war is always profitable. That'll show them for blocking our action in Syria and Iran.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Hopefully Obama has opened up communications with Putin over this.
No one wants to see this. And, I don't think Obama wants this on his plate right now.
Have to hope cooler heads prevail just as they did when we were ready to bomb installations in Syria and Obama walked back.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)(unfortunately that is the only toast smilie we have)