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Celebrating, shouting "Perfect", as the burned bodies are taken from the building (Original Post) newthinking May 2014 OP
Wow! I have been cleaning house a lot lately. JDPriestly May 2014 #1
A "Pro-maidan" crowd, full of Right Sector members, burned 30 people alive newthinking May 2014 #3
I have been impressed with Obama's wise handling of this situation. JDPriestly May 2014 #4
There is a very simple action that would likely quickly tamper things newthinking May 2014 #6
To achieve such a solution, Russia, the US and Germany would have to cooperate. JDPriestly May 2014 #11
I just watched the press conference that was linked newthinking May 2014 #18
Not like the US at all - the Russian proposal posits a VERY weak central government karynnj May 2014 #13
"We shall accept by no means any appeals for federalisation of Ukraine" newthinking May 2014 #15
"Foreign Policy" will hinge on allowing Neutrality newthinking May 2014 #16
At least some comments from western leaders suggest openness to contacts with both karynnj May 2014 #17
How can the US help guarantee that the opposition will not be threatened with violence newthinking May 2014 #8
The Obama and Merkel press conference is on the video group. It is promising. JDPriestly May 2014 #10
Here's the video: Rhiannon12866 May 2014 #12
Rival protests were occurring in the city. SolutionisSolidarity May 2014 #5
They also continued to flame the fire after it was already well burning and celebrated afterwards newthinking May 2014 #7
What you have written is disputed karynnj May 2014 #14
Videos have already been posted of the Pro-Maiden side SolutionisSolidarity May 2014 #20
Soon the Civil War will be in full bloom. SolutionisSolidarity May 2014 #2
A Grim view for sure...... KoKo May 2014 #9
Here's to hope newthinking May 2014 #19

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
4. I have been impressed with Obama's wise handling of this situation.
Sat May 3, 2014, 04:14 PM
May 2014

He is telling everyone to cool it. I think that Putin needs to cool it too and understand that neither Russia nor the West Europeans nor Americans have any interest in creating a situation in which the extreme right can take charge of Ukraine and the gas.

International cooperation is what is needed. And Putin needs to join with Merkel and Obama to facilitate the elections in Ukraine and work together to stop the violence and extremism.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
6. There is a very simple action that would likely quickly tamper things
Sat May 3, 2014, 05:03 PM
May 2014

Despite what the media is playing, most parties are not tied to Russia, but rather afraid/unaccepting of the interim government. There has been a lot of word play around federalizing (like the US), but in reality Kyiv has not yet givin an inch and in fact they have been incredibly stubborn and inflexible (despite claiming the opposite to confuse things). Even if that inflexibility is not presented in our media, Ukrainians fully understand that, and the very active role that Svoboda and Right sector have been allowed.

A *serious* offer of federalization would keep Ukraine united and allow the "states" to protect themselves from neo-nazis that are very much in play and provoking violence. I am convinced of that. I think the US is open to that, but Kyiv said on April 10th that they simply would not accept it. They need to be persuaded otherwise or this will likely continue to heat up. At least that is my feeling.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
11. To achieve such a solution, Russia, the US and Germany would have to cooperate.
Sat May 3, 2014, 06:36 PM
May 2014

Obama suggested that. We shall see whether Putin is willing. He may just want to stir up trouble to excite his own people and to have an excuse for a war in a place where he has a geographical advantage. We shall see.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
18. I just watched the press conference that was linked
Sat May 3, 2014, 09:48 PM
May 2014

It still sounds like unfortunately we are stuck in the same narrative.

It was kind of depressing to see.

I had hoped that I had missed something significant.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
13. Not like the US at all - the Russian proposal posits a VERY weak central government
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:11 PM
May 2014

where the states can even establish their own foreign policy! Even before Russia proposed anything, Ukraine was working on policies that would decentralize power - however not to level that Russia proposed with the goal of preventing Ukraine from ever being a unified country.

Not to mention your summary is completely inaccurate as to Odessa. The Pro-Russians were the first to attack - a peaceful march. As to "nazis" they are on BOTH sides.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
15. "We shall accept by no means any appeals for federalisation of Ukraine"
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:30 PM
May 2014

‘We shall accept by no means any appeals for federalisation of Ukraine, all the more so that these come from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of a foreign state,’ Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk pointed out Thursday, April 10, speaking at the 7th Kyiv Security Forum On the Fault Line: Security In-Between.

That quote is from his foundation website.

You are right that it may not have been right sector that started the initial clashes. I am still looking for a neutral or source that I can trust for the full version of the events leading to the fire.

Definitely people were killed on both sides in the initial clashes.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
16. "Foreign Policy" will hinge on allowing Neutrality
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:41 PM
May 2014

That indeed would be tricky. I am not sure that is an unreasonable thing to ask, considering one of the major differences between East and West is on that issue and most of the income in the East, and in the rest of the country, came from trade with Russia. Factories are now closing down and mass layoffs are occurring in the east, which doesn't seem like that will help with stability either.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
17. At least some comments from western leaders suggest openness to contacts with both
Sat May 3, 2014, 09:09 PM
May 2014

Europe and Russia. There is no reason that that can not be acceptable all over the country - via a central government policy.

The key thing though is that neither Russia or the EU/US should make decisions about the shape of their government -- Ukraine needs to do that and that can start only if everyone has a voice and things become more peaceful. (It is US policy, by the way, that Ukraine needs to define their own government.)

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
8. How can the US help guarantee that the opposition will not be threatened with violence
Sat May 3, 2014, 05:14 PM
May 2014

As has been happening recently?

I agree, at this point a new election to set back the clock and get back to Democracy, but there was no way that even without what is happening in the East, as long as extreme nationalists were allowed to intimidate, beat, and frighten, as happened last month to the opposition candidates, it could not have been fair.

I am not sure the current government is interested in having a fair election. They will need to be pressured more to get things in order. They don't really seem much interested in finding common ground. And that is a real problem.

5. Rival protests were occurring in the city.
Sat May 3, 2014, 04:16 PM
May 2014

The pro-Kiev protesters outnumbered the anti-Maiden protesters, and after some altercations involving gunfire with some casualties, the pro-Kiev group forced the anti-Maiden group back, where they took shelter in a Trade Union Office. Apparently both sides have been exchanging Molotovs, but the Kiev group seized the fire trucks and barricaded people in. Sometimes they even beat the burned people who made it out of the building. Some of the Kiev group tried to stop this, but others apparently wanted to kill everyone inside.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
7. They also continued to flame the fire after it was already well burning and celebrated afterwards
Sat May 3, 2014, 05:07 PM
May 2014

which of course kind of puts it in a different place then intense skirmishing.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
14. What you have written is disputed
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:15 PM
May 2014

You ignore that the anti Maiden people attacked the Kiev supporters who were marching. You also ignore that many report the Russians built the barricades to keep the Kiev people out.

What you have written is inflamatory and people should wait for proof -- there are even reports that the Russians accidentally started the fire.

20. Videos have already been posted of the Pro-Maiden side
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:18 AM
May 2014

throwing Molotovs onto the already burning building, and cheering on the immolation of their enemies. It's inflammatory because of what happened. I'm sure the Defense Ministry, headed by a Svoboda politician, will investigate thoroughly and find that all responsibility lies with pro-Russian extremists. And some people here will believe it, and attack others as conspiracy theorists.

2. Soon the Civil War will be in full bloom.
Sat May 3, 2014, 04:07 PM
May 2014

The Russians will likely cross the border, and give the PNACers in both Parties the opportunity to inflict full sanctions on them, just as planned. A hot war would be insane, but an economic war is always profitable. That'll show them for blocking our action in Syria and Iran.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
9. A Grim view for sure......
Sat May 3, 2014, 06:04 PM
May 2014

Hopefully Obama has opened up communications with Putin over this.

No one wants to see this. And, I don't think Obama wants this on his plate right now.

Have to hope cooler heads prevail just as they did when we were ready to bomb installations in Syria and Obama walked back.

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