We live in a culture that celebrates hypermasculinity. Which is a very dysfunctional way to live. Violence even when it crosses the line of legal and ethical behavior is often celebrated or at least condoned. It destroys the person that tries to live inside that system of behavior as well as the people around them. Its very sick and most people think it's normal behavior. Some people even think they are the ones with the problem when a hypermasculine person attacks them verbally or physically. It's permeated every aspect of our culture. I have no idea how to eradicate it, but the sooner we let go of it the better. It is probably the main reason we have an out of control MIC and why people cheer when a politician says we should let the uninsured die.

It is also why women who have masculine type brains are shunned and mistreated as well. We are looked at like we are freaks of nature and people don't understand why we aren't attracted to doing feminine types of activities. If you aren't nurturing you are considered a _____. Yeah you know what. And if you are merely assertive same thing, you are labeled as being overly aggressive. People still have a tendency to listen to men more than women. If a woman has an idea and expresses it that idea can go over like a lead balloon, man says the same thing it's a great idea. I have seen this personally and I have seen it happen to other women. I can't count how many times some ass hat has called me sweetheart, or dearie, or some other bullshit term of endearment. It does not make me happy and yes it does the opposite of making me want to be compliant, I will get willfully defiant not a problem.

So, I think we need to do at least two things. Let men be more emotional (not around me please, nor women either) and let people like me be not emotional or nurturing or whatever the heck it is that neurotypical people do.

"Let men be more emotional (not around me please, nor women either)" - My initial reaction to this is that its a double standard, but I may just be understanding it wrong. Could you clarify?

It is very uncomfortable for me. And when you are a woman that it is not acceptable by a lot of people that you be uncomfortable. Yes, it has come up on many occasion. People really don't get it. If I were a man it would be more acceptable. That is a double standard. Mine isn't.

It might be because I where I live, but its been considered unacceptable for men to show emotion, and acceptable and for women to do so. Its also frowned upon for people here to not give space, time and consideration to women dealing with emotional issues.

Which isn't a problem it's a confusing issue even for me. What I am saying isn't that society allows women to show more emotion, it's that where I am from anyway, society demands it. Women are supposed to be emotional and if they are not, then people think that the said woman is weird, a robot, or worse. They really do get peeved by it, my family included.

You're speaking to the oft presumed societal norms... the notion that men are not allowed to be emotional and women are expected to be emotional. So, if a woman is uncomfortable around emotions, its considered anti-feminine. I think I get ya.

Being comfortable with one's emotions or another person's emotions should never be a point of discomfort.
In fact, there's a whole host of psychological studies on how important and healthy it is for people to embracing of emotion.
Fascinating stuff really (well....to me anyway).

I suppose society norms are one of the reasons I'm a bit of an artist. Art is a way to express my emotions without actually emoting.
And, well, even in the Pacific Northwest, men are still expected to be beasts of burden, and little else.

I think the studies are true if you are neuro typical. But, now I have doubts that I fit into that category. I was always a wierd kind of person. I am pretty sure I was born this way. I always had my parents confused anyway, they weren't shy about saying so. My brother has the same kind of problems, but he is even more sensitive and quieter than I am. We just don't have that ability to emote. Not that we can't get angry and sad and happy, we can. But, in just normal activities we just aren't all that emoting. If that makes sense. People say we are hard to read. It's not like I am shy about sharing either. If I am thinking something it will most likely come out of my mouth. If I am happy it's most likely going to be expressed. Quite honestly the emphasis on feelings has me perplexed. I am trying though, I write poetry and dabble in writing fiction. I do talk to people about my feelings if and when I have them. I am not actively trying to suppress anything, I don't really have to.

Interesting what you say about being an artist, it's something that runs in my family. I wonder if there are more of us that if not on the Autistic Spectrum come pretty close.

Its quite common for those with either difficulty with emotional expression or discomfort with it to be artistically inclined, or to have some other form for emotional expression.

this definitely defines my family. It also makes me feel better about my art I have often wondered how people can think of me as being aloof when I can write poetry. Which makes me wonder am I really aloof or do I really write poetry? I have a lot of doubts of course it's part of living as a person outside of societies norms I suppose. Almost everyone in my poetry class shared the same doubts and I thought they were awesome. I wonder also if this is part of the creative process, that doubt somehow causes one to push the envelope.

It certainly can. Doubt is a bit of a double edged sword though. It can get your creative juices going or shut them down.
though, I think ,perhaps, its a little less about doubt, and more about the ancillary emotions that often accompany doubt: Fear, frustration, anger, sadness... negative emotions generally tend to be a massive progenitor of art... though certainly not exclusively.

However, your comment ("A healthy take on feminism!&quot suggests that your experience with feminism has been less than optimal. I'm reminded of Limbaugh's crass statement about feminism's "failure," after which he gleefully describes the vicious and relentless backlash against feminism from individuals (mostly men) who are in denial about sexism, misogyny, patriarchy and the multitude of damages attributable to these socio-cultural realities. Feminism seeks to end the damaging and stultifying power over/powerless relationship paradigms that predominate in our patriarchy--regardless of the gender or orientation of the individuals involved.

Up until perhaps 4 months ago, I considered myself a feminist. However, I didn't realize how many forms of feminism there are out there, and ran into one that believed in the notion that men needed to be punished and that revenge against men was the order of the day.

Now, rather than accept the view of a harmful few, I've chosen to call myself an Egalitarian, which not only supports Feminism's movement to bring women's right on par with men, but also advocates for men, religious, non religious groups and many others.
https://www.facebook.com/egalitarianismhome

Happily, the vote was 0-7 to leave it.

I was Juror #4. I'll take this opportunity to disagree with Juror #6; I see no basis for assuming that the alerter wants the poster silenced because he's a man.


AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Sun Nov 16, 2014, 07:30 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

"your experience with feminism has been less than optimal" - This is true.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=226948

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"but also advocates for men, religious, non religious groups and many others. "

More anti-feminist drivel from one of DU's resident men's right's advocates. Not sure why this poster is still here. He has a thread dedicated to bashing DU's feminists in the men's rights group here. This not only makes DU sucks, it goes against everything Democrats stand for.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Nov 16, 2014, 07:49 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alert has little to do with the specific post. You may have a history with this person, but that's not what is on trial here.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerted post "supports Feminism's movement to bring women's right on par with men," which is not "anti-feminist drivel" as per the alert. The alerter's real problem is obviously with other posts by the same author, which is not a basis for hiding this one.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think that I understand that the posts of both were in support of feminism, but that the approach of how they reached the conclusion of equality was going to be different. Very important to keep discussing…
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So because he's a man, you want him to be silent? Tell me again who's being sexist?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: We are judging this particular post, not your dissatisfaction with past postings.

Since his post is neither disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate, my vote is to leave it alone.



Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I believe I may have something of a post-stalker.

To the alerter in question, here's my point by point rebuttal:
"but also advocates for men, religious, non religious groups and many others. "
"More anti-feminist drivel from one of DU's resident men's right's advocates." - Being for the rights of men is not, contrary to what you might think, antithetical to Feminism. However, pretending that men do not face issues is. Interestingly, you chose to include the "...religious, non religious groups and many others." portion of my comment, but opted to willfully ignore these points within your complaint. I can only presume you are one of those who believe that only feminism issues matter. If that is in fact the case, I must most stringently disagree with you. Feminism has many important issues that need addressing... however, Feminism is not the sole aggrieved group in existence.

Many religious and non religious folks are persecuted daily for the personal choices they've made in what to believe in. Anyone who has brown or yellow skin has their rights under constant assault in this country. Then there are the issues of class... most of us are either poor or middle class, and the top tax brackets have been waging a thus far successful war against the lower class brackets through division, derision and disinformation. There is nothing wrong with being a Feminist. In fact, I generally recommend it. However, ignoring the rest of the issues in our country and the world is pure unadulterated folly.

"Not sure why this poster is still here." - I'm here because I want to be. I need little other reason... but I'll play along. Why are you here? Do you come here for support? For news updates? For political discourse? Perhaps to give support? I come here for all those reasons and more. I come here to provide whatever small contribution I can to improve the lives of others. I may succeed, I may not... but I'll certainly fail if I don't try. I'll also fail if I give in to the bullying efforts of stalkers, people looking to score debate points, or anyone else trying to control me and my message.

Clearly, you disagree with what I have to say. I can respect that. Obviously, not everyone on this board agrees with everyone else on the board. I would, however, encourage you to either take your dispute to me directly either through response in thread, private message, or, if those are not an option, place me on ignore. It wont hurt my feelings if you choose the latter option.

"He has a thread dedicated to bashing DU's feminists in the men's rights group here." - No, I have a thread in the sole forum for men: "men's group" (a "men's rights group" doesn't exist here), that calls out someone proclaiming to be a feminist who holds to a double standard on what qualifies as sexism. Perhaps you are new to DU and don't understand that nearly anything posted here is subject to scrutiny and rebuttal. Point of fact; It is that very process that helps to keep us all honest, and grants us great depths of understanding than we might have on our own.

"This not only makes DU sucks, it goes against everything Democrats stand for." - Its unfortunate that you feel that way. I, of course, disagree with you. The fact that we are all able to make our individual voices heard is foundation, not only to our democracy, but also to the fundamental underpinnings of DU.

Feminism is about equal rights for women.
If you're going be for equal rights, the be for equal rights.
Not just when it conveniences you.

...although the narrator may identify as a feminist. Feminism is advocacy for women.

The video was about sexism and how it's not limited to discrimination against women.

Although, I'd say healthier displays on feminism tend to include this perspective.

As a long time feminist, I don't understand...

There are some groups out there who believe that actively attacking men is the only way to bring about feminist goals. For clarification, I'm talking attacks of all sorts... verbal, physical, direct and indirect.
This is probably the worst variety I've personally come across. They want equality for women, but the notion of how to go about it is not only wrong headed, but it would cause more problems than it would solve.
This is, of course, by no means, representative of the whole of feminism... or Feminism in general.
Truth be told, that specific mentality is very likely fringe... and is, in my estimation, an example of less than healthy feminism.

feminists threads in a new light. Every intellectual assertion is not necessarily an attack. I have not seen what you claim to have seen here on DU. Where does that come from? How come we haven't really seen it?

But, again, please inform us poor, benighted women what YOUR idea of "healthy feminism" is....

Last edited Sun Nov 16, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

ideas on it. I'm certainly willing to consider what you have to say, assuming its free of snark or condescension, which is more than you've done for me thus far.

"I have not seen what you claim to have seen here on DU." - I've made no claim that such commentary exists here on DU.

"please inform us poor, benighted women" - I'll thank you to keep your words out of my mouth.

but thanks for granting your permission.

And, BTW, I did read something you wrote about feminism on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111414253

You're not interested in actual conversation. You're just here to bait, condescend and twist words.
Sorry, but I'm not here to oblige you. If you want to pick a fight, you'll have to go elsewhere.
Add to that, you're stalking my posts? I wouldn't be surprised if you were the one to Alert me.
In any case, I'm not interested in your toxicity and rancor.

"I did read something you wrote about feminism on DU" - Indeed? Well, I hope it was enjoyable for you.
I'll be updating that thread shortly.

have some ideas you don't like, but that's life and sometimes I am wrong. But, I've lived a long life and I really don't get too worked up. I just voice my opinion.