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Spokesperson ;''the US has a "Long-standing policy" against backing coups. (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 OP
Is this an SNL skit? blackspade Mar 2015 #1
A history lesson from the state department Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #5
Yeah, I woulda cracked up at that too. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #2
Say what?! hobbit709 Mar 2015 #3
To be able to do that is a requirement for the job. n/t PoliticAverse Mar 2015 #8
Ha, ha. That spokesperson doesn't' know her history. n/t deafskeptic Mar 2015 #4
Watch her eyes and body language when she says that Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #6
I read the article at your link and it made me think, Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #15
Good point. The body language thing is grossly overrated in general. Smarmie Doofus Mar 2015 #17
There was one sign that I knew was not consistent with cultural mores. Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #18
she wasn't Innocent and she lied Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #20
Oh, Lord. I was talking about the article in general. Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #22
I find that when you turn the sound off Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #23
Our world has come full circle. Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #24
Well, I admit that I didn't watch the video. deafskeptic Mar 2015 #40
As a Deaf person you must understand eye contact and body motion Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #41
I also must be able ot understand what people are saying to me. deafskeptic Mar 2015 #42
To hear the sounds of silence. Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #43
Oh my side... Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #7
Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! Enthusiast Mar 2015 #9
As Frances McDormand sez in Fargo, "Yaaaaaahhhhh!" Smarmie Doofus Mar 2015 #10
Wow HatTrick Mar 2015 #11
Hope you enjoy her candor. She's returning to the White House soon... RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #13
The United States of Amnesia RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #12
Allende? heaven05 Mar 2015 #25
Apparently, those are "old news" for us. But not for the countries that endured them. RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #26
Excellent Kinzer books on the subject! leveymg Mar 2015 #29
You're welcome! I've read 'em both. RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #30
LMAO L0oniX Mar 2015 #14
Joke night at the State Department. valerief Mar 2015 #16
This is correct. The US does not back coups. Mr.Bill Mar 2015 #19
That spokesperson is Michael Amott ...one of the guitar players in Arch Enemy... L0oniX Mar 2015 #21
If not for a US-backed coup, Iran might be a democratic US-ally by now. DetlefK Mar 2015 #27
Yes! This is the tragedy of the whole unpleasant episode RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #31
"might" is the important word there uhnope Mar 2015 #34
you are all so critical! guillaumeb Mar 2015 #28
We're like the kid who covers his eyes and cries "You can't see me! You can't see me!" n/t RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #32
Pffffth! GoneFishin Mar 2015 #33
to play devil's advocate uhnope Mar 2015 #35
The 2009 Honduran coup d'état, Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #36
your link does not support the claim uhnope Mar 2015 #37
wrong as usual on your support for right wing crap Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #38
I'm not RW; name calling & anger aren't facts; once again your link does not support your claim uhnope Mar 2015 #39
You really think people are that naive? newthinking Mar 2015 #47
K&R KoKo Mar 2015 #44
Did anyone ask her if she's an idiot or a liar? yurbud Mar 2015 #45
Newspeak is a slow process at first..... DeSwiss Mar 2015 #46

Baitball Blogger

(46,744 posts)
15. I read the article at your link and it made me think,
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 10:45 AM
Mar 2015

What does an innocent person look like when they are answering questionings under a difficult situation.

 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
17. Good point. The body language thing is grossly overrated in general.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 10:55 AM
Mar 2015

There are good liars and bad liars. Nervous liars and calm liars. Liars who make eye-contact; and liars who are unable to do so.

In other words, what we have here is a subset of the general population of EVERYONE answering difficult and/or uncomfortable questions.

Baitball Blogger

(46,744 posts)
18. There was one sign that I knew was not consistent with cultural mores.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 11:11 AM
Mar 2015

In Latin American cultures, it was a sign of respect when a person did not look directly in the eye of an individual with authority, like an employer, teacher or police.

This led to many wrong conclusions when they immigrated into the U.S.

Baitball Blogger

(46,744 posts)
22. Oh, Lord. I was talking about the article in general.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 11:22 AM
Mar 2015

Of course she lied. She has a history of facts that proved she lied. A blind person could have figured it out.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
23. I find that when you turn the sound off
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 11:46 AM
Mar 2015

you begin to see and notice a lot more little non verbal communication data that the subject does subconsciously revealing honest nervousness vs dishonest nervousness........ which that I've had some professional and academic training in, that article was just an novice introduction to that subject which I just threw in as a starter.

I think she will do great as the new white house spokes person which she starts in april............lol

Baitball Blogger

(46,744 posts)
24. Our world has come full circle.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:07 PM
Mar 2015

If you read the works of Mark Twain, what you find is a man who outs liars with a remarkable ease and confidence. For some reason, we began to refuse to believe that people could be so heinously dishonest. And even when we became convinced of their dishonesty, we still couldn't find the courage to say it out loud.

And now we're in the Mark Twain stage with a Jon Stewart twist: Fuck the liars and their fucking lies!

deafskeptic

(463 posts)
40. Well, I admit that I didn't watch the video.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 05:41 PM
Mar 2015

I'd like to ask you to do me a favor. When you click on the video, turn off the sound and turn on the captions and see how much of the video you understand.

I didn't bother. PBS and public TV generally have the best captions. Youtube on the other hand...

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
41. As a Deaf person you must understand eye contact and body motion
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 06:17 PM
Mar 2015

in order to comprehend the your reality around you on how to read someone and the truth


Your other senses must be heighten to that.

We don't have captions when we talk to each other in the real world except on TV after the fact.

thank you so much for your response, I found it intellectually stimulating on what my point was

deafskeptic

(463 posts)
42. I also must be able ot understand what people are saying to me.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 06:42 PM
Mar 2015

Since the captions likely don't match the spoken words, I would be able to spot the body language but the context will be missing for me. Also, many deaf can not lipread on tv - including myself - because everything is so flat.

Youtube is infamous for awful captions and the video that I just watched is actually one of the better captioning examples, I usually don't bother watching youtube vid unless the video is from PBS or other tv/cable stations known for excellent captions.

Not many know this, but even the very best lipreader can only lipread 30% to 40% of a spoken conservation and lipreading all day is exhausting.

Where did the bit about captions in rl come from? As far as I'm concerned, captions are for TV/movies/cable only.

Since I can not communicate like the hearing, I have to find alternatives when dealing with the hearing. Some hearing are good about it but others well.. the less I say about this - the better!

I think in the future, I will not comment on videos unless I watch them first.

HatTrick

(129 posts)
11. Wow
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:11 AM
Mar 2015

She was reading from a script, but omg.
She just stands there and tells a bold face lie. I think she has a future with Faux News.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
13. Hope you enjoy her candor. She's returning to the White House soon...
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:49 AM
Mar 2015

... as Communications Director.
Fittingly, her return is slated for April 1.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
12. The United States of Amnesia
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:46 AM
Mar 2015

Following long-standing policies is only for suckers apparently.

Venezuela clearly has nothing to worry about.
We haven't supported a coup there since, um, like, Jen Psaki, was only 24.
That's pretty darn long-standing.
Of course, we supported a coup in Honduras in 2009, but true Americans can't even find Honduras on a map.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
26. Apparently, those are "old news" for us. But not for the countries that endured them.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:34 PM
Mar 2015


This is an excellent book for those who are in the dark about the country's sad history of engineering undemocratic "regime changes."

As is the author's earlier book, which focuses entirely on Iran

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
30. You're welcome! I've read 'em both.
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 01:09 PM
Mar 2015

I haven't yet read "The Brothers," but I know people who have. It comes at our checkered past from a slightly different angle.


RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
31. Yes! This is the tragedy of the whole unpleasant episode
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 01:13 PM
Mar 2015

Mossadegh, like many fledgling leaders, believed in many American ideals more passionately than Americans did. He knew the CIA was supporting his opposition but was hesitant to crack down because he honored their right to free speech. That proved to be a fatal mistake.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
28. you are all so critical!
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:40 PM
Mar 2015

The US does not back coups. Simple direct statement.

Forget about
Ukraine,
Venezuela,
Haiti,
Cuba,
Iran,
South Vietnam,
Greece,
Chile,
and many others. And sadly, most voters are unaware of the US long history of backing and instigating violent regime change. History for most voters is what they know.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
35. to play devil's advocate
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 02:04 PM
Mar 2015

What was the last coup that the USA backed? It's been a while (and please don't start with the Nuland Cookies Ukraine lies or unproven CT about Venezuela in 2002). I don't think we're including publicly announced actions here (like the war in Iraq, which I organized protest rallies against BTW) or our public policy on Syria now. So the "long standing" in this statement could be accurate.

About the support for coups in the distant past, which were disgraceful (Chile etc.)--it doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't a policy against backing coups, it could just mean there was an exception to policy in those cases. And if not, again, we're going well back into the last century.

For the record, I despise much of US foreign policy history in the past, especially in Central/South America in the 70s and 80s and as mentioned the entire Bush admin debacle (though I support the assistance to Poland's Solidarity movement of Lech Walesa). But we have to acknowledge that since the collapse of the USSR, the US has been a bit more above-ground in its foreign policy (for better or for worse).

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
36. The 2009 Honduran coup d'état,
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 02:21 PM
Mar 2015
WikiLeaks Honduras: State Dept. Busted on Support of Coup


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/wikileaks-honduras-state_b_789282.html


And yes Mr. so called devil's advocate calling things CT to get a negative reaction doesn't mean it wasn't CT
 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
37. your link does not support the claim
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 02:26 PM
Mar 2015

It does not say the US planned, sponsored or backed the coup. It just says that US did not cancel all aid to Honduras after the coup. It even says the US opposed the coup and implemented sanctions against the coup regime.

Nope. I'd say my premise still stands.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
38. wrong as usual on your support for right wing crap
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 02:34 PM
Mar 2015

The US and the Honduran coup




Washington’s criticisms of the June 28 military coup that ousted President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras lack any element of sincerity or historical truth. The Obama administration is uneasy at the ouster of Zelaya, a conservative-turned-populist allied to Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, because it reveals all too clearly the character of US foreign policy.

President Barack Obama’s condemnation of Zelaya’s overthrow as a “terrible precedent” is belied by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s refusal to characterize it as a coup. Under US laws, such a designation would force the government to cut off tens of millions of dollars in aid to Honduras and its armed forces. Clinton also declined to call for Zelaya’s reinstatement, saying, “We haven’t laid out any demands that we’re insisting on, because we’re working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives.”

Zelaya was overthrown because his populism was seen as a threat both to conservative sections of the bourgeoisie in Honduras and to US strategic interests in Latin America and the Caribbean.

In October 2008, Zelaya joined the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas (ALBA in Spanish), a regional alliance organized by Chávez that includes Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, Dominica, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, and Antigua and Barbuda. Member states receive subsidies coming largely from Venezuelan oil earnings. One provision, which Zelaya chose not to ratify, calls for common defense in case one of the member states is attacked by the US.

Zelaya’s efforts to hold a constitutional referendum that would allow him to run for a second term provoked an escalating conflict with the Honduran military, the Congress and the courts, which culminated in his ouster.

US diplomats worked closely with the Honduran opposition to Zelaya. A US official speaking anonymously confirmed to the New York Times that US Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs Thomas A. Shannon, Jr. and US Ambassador to Honduras Hugo Llorens spoke to “military officials and opposition leaders” in the days before the coup. He explained: “There was talk of how they might remove the president from office, how he could be arrested, on whose authority they could do that.”

The identities of the Obama administration’s point men on Honduras demolish claims that it is formulating a new US foreign policy. Shannon was special advisor to President Bush in 2003-2005, when he was also senior director for western hemisphere affairs at the National Security Council. From 2001 to 2002 he served at the State Department as director of Andean affairs—covering Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador.

Llorens was the National Security Council’s director of Andean affairs in 2002-2003, holding the post when the Bush administration backed a military coup in Venezuela that nearly toppled Chávez.

The official speaking to the Times complained, however, that the administration did not expect that the Honduran army would go so far as to carry out an overt military coup. The Obama administration was evidently seeking to engineer a de facto coup, but with a gloss of constitutional legality. Thus Washington’s main complaint about the Honduran coup is not that the army intervened in politics. Rather, it is that the Honduran army’s open intervention has exploded the democratic veneer that the bourgeois media tries to give to US foreign policy.
The Washington Post editorialized on Tuesday: “The military’s intervention may have the unintended effect of saving Mr. Zelaya. The Congress voted him out of office on Sunday by a large margin; had the generals merely allowed events to proceed according to the rule of law, the president could have been legitimately deposed or isolated.” It called on Obama to “speak out more clearly about the abuses that prompted [Zelaya’s] removal.”

Revelations of US complicity with Honduran coup leaders comes at an inopportune time for Washington. It is waging a campaign to weaken or topple Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, wrapping itself in invocations of democracy and alleging that Ahmadinejad stole the June 12 election in Iran.
The administration is relying on the US media to limit the political damage resulting from its role in the Honduran coup and the exposure of its hypocrisy in relation to the Iranian elections. In contrast to the media’s coverage of Iran, there have been few breathless reports, amateur videos or Twitter feeds coming from Tegucigalpa.

The US role in Honduras must be appraised in the historical context of Washington’s violent and oppressive relations with Central America and its longstanding ties to the most reactionary forces in the region. As political and economic tensions mount, the big landowning and corporate interests and the US-trained officer corps in America’s traditional “back yard” fear the effects of populist appeals against US imperialism by left-nationalist figures like Chávez and Zelaya.

During the debate over Honduras’ joining ALBA, anti-Zelaya Honduran deputy Marta Lorena Alvarado attacked Chávez and warned, “We are allowing a man with a strange ideology to make his way into our population and into our manner of seeing Honduras’ history.”

Considering just the post-World War II period, the US and Honduran ruling elites have collaborated in huge crimes against the Central American masses. In the US-engineered 1954 coup against Guatemala’s elected president, Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, Honduras served as a base and training camp for a CIA “rebel force” on Guatemala’s southern border. The US intervention in Guatemala would ultimately provoke a series of civil wars prosecuted by US-backed anti-communist death squads, lasting over 30 years and claiming 200,000 lives, according to US figures.
In 1963, Honduran President Ramón Villeda was overthrown by military officers led by General Oswaldo López Arellano. US President John F. Kennedy then decided to end US adherence to the Betancourt doctrine, which held that the US should not recognize extra-constitutional governments. López Arellano called elections in 1971 but lost. He regained power through another coup in 1972.
The US responded to the 1979 overthrow of the Somoza family in neighboring Nicaragua by setting up the anti-communist Contra insurgency, which it funded in violation of US laws banning aid to the Contras. Based in Honduras, the Contras fought a war against the Nicaraguan Sandinistas that lasted until 1987, costing 60,000 casualties and displacing 250,000 people
.
Seen in the context of Honduras’ historical role as a center of US-backed counterrevolution, the ouster of Zelaya constitutes a sharp warning to the working class in the Americas. Prompted by concern over the political ramifications of Zelaya’s links to Venezuela, a US-backed coup in Honduras could well be the signal for a broader regional campaign by US imperialism against Venezuela and allied regimes throughout the continent.


http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/07/pers-j01.html

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
39. I'm not RW; name calling & anger aren't facts; once again your link does not support your claim
Thu Mar 12, 2015, 04:02 PM
Mar 2015

From your own link:

Zelaya’s efforts to hold a constitutional referendum that would allow him to run for a second term provoked an escalating conflict with the Honduran military, the Congress and the courts, which culminated in his ouster.

Hmm sounds like an internal problem, caused by Zalaya himself.

The nitty gritty:

A US official speaking anonymously confirmed to the New York Times that US Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs Thomas A. Shannon, Jr. and US Ambassador to Honduras Hugo Llorens spoke to “military officials and opposition leaders” in the days before the coup. He explained: “There was talk of how they might remove the president from office, how he could be arrested, on whose authority they could do that.”


Sorry, no, this is not even sponsoring or supporting the coup.

The article is conjecture and vague claims that, because of something in the past, something must be true in the present--but without much proof. Extreme assertions require extreme proof.

Nope.
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
46. Newspeak is a slow process at first.....
Fri Mar 13, 2015, 02:26 AM
Mar 2015
"This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs — to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.

Don't you see the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the language of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible because there will be no words in which to express it. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party.”


~George Orwell, 1984


- We aren't supposed to notice when it's happening though. We're supposed to pretend like it's not.....

K&R
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