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Related: About this forumThe #1 reason why I don't like Hillary Clinton
March 2008:
She thinks we gave the Iraqi people a gift, the greatest gift a person can give.
Also this comment strikes me as racist and dehumanizing toward Arabs because I think millions of people probably died or had their lives turned into a living hell because of the illegal war.
I don't want to paste in too much shocking images but if you google for images of Iraq war dead and injured you won't be able to look at the consequences of this gift of freedom.
And then Hillary also kept repeating the same policy again and again, in Libya and in Syria, which is ongoing. It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say she leaves a trail of destruction everywhere she touches.
And then a couple years later she made these further disgusting comments selling the destruction of Iraq as an opportunity for corporations to profit:
I hope we can all agree Hillary Clinton's attitude toward Iraq has been disgusting and offensive.
phazed0
(745 posts)It is deplorable. Not only on her, but for the many with such short memories (or NO care).
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)And it has gone on since the early 80s. Someone please post the photo of Bill and Bush Sr from '82 at private Maine family retreat.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)and children any lie helps. The sheer mendcity, the white man's burden of her remarks make me hurl. She is soaked in blood. Maybe that is why Kissinger loves her so. Peas in a pod.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)choie
(4,111 posts)Despicable.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)saturnsring
(1,832 posts)We are all responsible for our words and actions. Are you saying that Clinton said these things because we were going to war anyway? That means she either agreed with the war or she was being politically expedient. Either way, she has no moral compass at all.
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)to vote that way, maybe she did after seeing the intelligence. monday morning quarterbacking sure is easy isnt it.
choie
(4,111 posts)knew that the Bush administration was lying, but she didn't? She knew that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. As for her constituents, I was one of her constituents. Thousands and thousands of New Yorkers protested against the war before the bombs started to fall. Monday morning quarterbacking has nothing to do with it. She did what was politically expedient for her - her eye is always on what will help her politically, and not on what is right, morally and ethically.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)lob1
(3,820 posts)After all, we're all gonna die anyway.
eilen
(4,950 posts)There was not widespread support.
Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)Same thing here.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Answer- She DID know. She just didn't give a shit. She wanted to be president...
Akamai
(1,779 posts)read the words, and could hear Bernie uttering them. Good job!
Go Bernie!
choie
(4,111 posts)Thank you!!!!!!
Akamai
(1,779 posts)things that aren't helpful! That aren't moving all of us to do the things we have to do!
Go Bernie!
FighttheFuture
(1,313 posts)saturnsring
(1,832 posts)OwlinAZ
(410 posts)FighttheFuture
(1,313 posts)that calls into question her judgement, or lack thereof. She was being politically expedient because she lacks courage, or she is a warmonger which is despicable. Either way, it sucks for her, and makes fools of those who try to minimize it and explain it away.
-none
(1,884 posts)Her views and her war criminal friends have not changed.
The Iraq war was totally unnecessary and the Middle East is in a quagmire because of our meddling over there. WE, the United States are responsible for most of the death and destruction there.
But the Terrorists? Those are terrorists of OUR making. Our foreign policy in the Middle East is guaranteed to continued the current situation of death and destruction. The perfect perpetual motion machine.
We have the Midas Touch, except everything we touch seems to turn to shit, not gold. Well maybe, except for the golden profits of the MIC.
We have no real need for another war monger in the White House. We need to turn ourselves around and give Peace a Chance.
Out of all the people running on both sides, who do you think has the best chance of doing that? Who?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)After her vote, and before she claimed her vote was a mistake? That makes her apology ring untrue.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Currently, by making such preposterous remarks, she is supported her bad decision and might loose
another shot at the Presidency over it. The lady doesn't know when to fold.
FighttheFuture
(1,313 posts)ladjf
(17,320 posts)Martin Eden
(12,874 posts)... so I bought him some smack.
Social Security benefits are likely to be cut eventually so if my congressman votes for the cuts, no harm done.
My country is going to launch a disastrous and extremely costly war and commit war crimes, so I'm just hunky-dory with Democrats who give vocal support and their votes to get that ball rolling.
Can't beat that logic.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)I think it was all about the money.
Wars are basically huge unsupervised wealth transfers of taxpayer money to the well connected.
Martin Eden
(12,874 posts)1) The political calculation it was better for her political career in the post-9/11 environment to be a hawk.
2) She really is a hawk and was on board with the neocon agenda, even though she had to know the case for war was bogus (I don't think she's that stupid).
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)Somebody dies and somebody makes money. Everytime.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Kinda like my primary vote doesn't matter because La Hillary wants to run for president.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)She felt she needed to impress the MIC. Those defense contractors that profited by the deaths of Iraqi's and Americans would be a great asset in future campaigns.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)She got it wrong as Secretary of State, too, but nobody holds Hillary accountable. She just keeps on running because she pleases the right people who are going to make her President. What then? Just what they want her to do. "Real men do Iran."
MisterP
(23,730 posts)to make the omelet of Libyan or Iraqi freedom, peace, and prosperity or trying to keep her from losing the Presidency like they lost the House and Senate
Response to MisterP (Reply #5)
Act_of_Reparation This message was self-deleted by its author.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)AMIRITE?
Such a tasty, tasty omelette. Sure, my cousin wound up a cloud of red mist on some nameless road in the middle of a desert shithole eight thousand miles away from home, but you gotta break eggs, right? His daughter can't miss him if she never knew him!
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)They don't consider the Iraqis, and brown people in other victim nations, as worthy of notice. Their lives don't matter, and the people that care about this stuff are the extremists.
I am trying to figure out exactly what they do care about.
Gene Debs
(582 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Perfect!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Clinton supporters of LUVIN' killin' those babies, kinda like the right like to state that Dems LOVE to abort their babies.
When you present such lopsided argument, do not expect reasoned conversation. You have made that impossible.
phazed0
(745 posts)Because we're all wondering, if Hillary supporters care about these issues.. why are they voting for Hillary and not Bernie? History shows clinton gets you all these formentioned things. Bernie is the one guy that has my last hope. I've been watching him since 2001 and he has always been a voice of reason; the one of too few voices, of sane opposition, in a F*ed up system.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)shooting off drones, but you all want to argue that he is pure as snow. One vote. Out of all the military votes he was for, you have one mere vote. And it is not even all of the conflict. One vote of many votes, in the conflict.... One, he voted no to.
Why discuss? The brainwash is in, and the belief is Sanders will not go to war or even bother with foreign affair, because well, it just does not interest him.
He has supported, he has back, he has protected, the military complex interest.
I find it hypocritical.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Bernie Sanders is a CON, would JUMP into WAR and SHOOT off DRONES.
you find him hypocritical? what then, do you find HILLARY?
pantsonfire
(1,306 posts)I at least realize he no a unicorn shooting out rainbows, he's made compromises because that's what politicians' do (well maybe not anymore). Those that think he's the messiah are not looking at him correctly, he's a politician, though being the longest serving independent in American history sets him apart distinctively. Onto war....
He supported the f-35 project because of jobs they provided in Vermont (yes, not very progressive), for the operation in Kosovo to stop the genocide, for the war in Afghanistan, and....you can help me here.
Comparing him with Clinton, I think objectively, she would be more inclined to go to war not because of her Iraq vote only, but because she understands that our military industrial complex and country makes billions off weapons sales. The Clinton Foundation's donors benefited, while Clinton was SoS, billions in arms deals....
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-foundation-state-arms-deals
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Or it seems. Hey if they had actually thought that they woulda voted for Sarah Palin in droves. Because Sarah might not be very bright but she isn't dangerous like Donald . If she some how beats the odds (and the odds are very much against her) and wins in November I don't see her running longer than 4 yrs. Because Someone will have figured out how to properly harness the Bernie energy provided of course this plays out the way DWS wants it played out this year and either we have Republicans in 4 yrs or she loses her own Primary. I don't particularly care that Bernie ran against Obama in 2012. That is American. He did nothing wrong he did it by the book. And he'll continue to do things but the American rule book until he can't see a way to win. And right now I see a 50 /50 odds .
Am I supposed to put a disclaimer here. This is my opinion . Politically correct run amok requires a disclaimer X_X oddly most people who actually get to know me say I'm one of the funniest cool guys they know. Good I've done my job I like to see people smile. Hard to do this when your being attacked however. So far MSNBC has lost me forever. Huffingtonpost is dead (AOL) and I read more news now online.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)very possibly not even a majority.. but TOO many...
As much as I would truly LOVE to see a woman president.... she ain't the one.
SamKnause
(13,108 posts)I just don't want the first woman president to be Hillary.
greymouse
(872 posts)So, not Hillary.
SamKnause
(13,108 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)..... it's the name they recognize. She'll be just like Bill!!!!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I don't want yet another disaster capitalist.
"Iraq was a great business opportunity."
HA! Not if you're dead, it's not.
LiberalArkie
(15,727 posts)On Mon Mar 21, 2016, 06:27 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Hillary supporters don't care about this stuff.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=342048
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Nothing but flame bait based on the poster's lies. There is absolutely nothing to support such a depraved assessment of HRC's supporters. This garbage posting needs to stop.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 21, 2016, 06:33 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Disgusting. -Agschmid
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion and it's not a TOS violation
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A supporter should stand behind their candidate, especially something as important as war.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A bit too cynical.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is an opinion not directed at anyone specifically.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It's outrageous that the Democratic Party is nominating a warmonger, one whose friend and adviser is Henry Kissinger, the world's worst living mass-murderer. This is extremely serious stuff with severe consequences.
NNadir
(33,538 posts)While Ralph Nader was carrying on about officiating at NBA playoff games, I was out in the freezing cold in NYC protesting the plan to start a war.
In general, my impression of so called "progressives" is that they're pretty smug and self congratulatory, but short on action.
I expect that if Trump becomes President, these same assholes will blame the Democrats for whatever wars he starts, since they had to temerity to not worship their latest hero.
I've already had lots of conversations with former "progressive" Naderites who said that the period between 2000 and 2008 was all the Democrats fault for choosing Al Gore as their candidate.
You may call us racists all you want, but decidedly most of the so called "progressive" types I hear from are bourgeois, clueless and very, very, very, very self absorbed.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)of substance.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)and how bad her policies and general attitude have been.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)They just turn the other cheek
So they can attack Bernie supporters for being
Just for being.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)She is a woman and if elected would be the first woman POTUS
And to many that is the only thing that matters.
It sounds stupid and child like but that is the state of politics in this country today.
Gene Debs
(582 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)Look at Debbie (D) and her support of Republicans over Democrats. No big deal to them.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)It's a glass ceiling broken. However, there are more important things to have in a president, like not wanting to start wars that aren't necessary. Honesty. Reversing the increase of the wealth gap is huge.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)that no other woman is elected President for another 50 years.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)But not just any woman. Originally I had my hopes set on Warren, but I suspect there was only room for one woman in the party and Hillary had the power.
Breaking a glass ceiling only to get more war and more wealth gap is not worth it.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)If Warren had run, I'd be all over that!
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)This isn't Bush and Cheney's war?
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)so I guess Cheney isn't a bad guy anymore???
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)So I guess the NRA isn't bad anymore?
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)although comparing a War Criminal to one guy who doesn't listen to his own members . Hey VT voters wanted the law passed let Bernie know that and thus he voted the way the voters wanted him to vote. Jawdrop I guess that is unheard of. Gosh then that explains why we have this absurd jail in Cuba still opens. we wanted it out there but thats okay because the Poltiicians want to keep it there.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Seems to be a lot of silence on the gun issue since this.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/01/nra-lobbyist-will-co-host-clinton-fundraiser/
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)A lobbyist held the fundraiser, not the NRA.
Did you know that lobbyists work for many clients at a time? And that the same lobbyist that works for the NRA could work for Planned Parenthood, for example? Just like a lawyer has many different clients with different interests, so do lobbyists.
But this is typical of the Bernie smear campaign against Hillary, relying on people's ignorance.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)You remind me of a lyric by Bob Dylan. "Take the dark out of the nighttime...and paint the daytime black." Or any Orwellian quote. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)This was Bush and Cheney's war. The junior senator from New York had no more power over this outcome than Sander's vote did.
Blaming this war on Hillary is nuts!
End of story!
choie
(4,111 posts)what the hell don't you understand? Whether they would have gone to war without the resolution or not, she voted for it! You are an apologist for a vote that was unconscionable...
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)It has been explained and repeatedly ignored for years now.
We'll just let the voters explain it to you!
choie
(4,111 posts)utter and complete bullshit. I don't give a crap how many voters vote for her - they, like you, are apologists.
merrily
(45,251 posts)that "whereas" clauses have no legal effect whatsoever, she voted to give Bush sole discretion to go war, full stop. All else is bull puckie kabuki.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:1:./temp/~c107Bd8qdg::
whathehell
(29,081 posts)in 2004 unless you were under age.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No one has "blamed" the war on Hillary.
They are just stating she voted for it and supported it.
Is English Hillary supporters' 1st language?.... because a lot seem to not understand what words actually mean.
msongs
(67,432 posts)zalinda
(5,621 posts)Are they all the votes to fund the war, where our soldiers didn't have the equipment to protect themselves, like body armor and armored Humvees? Or should he just let their parents continue to raise funds to buy them the body armor and let the soldiers go root around in junk fields and weld metal to the Humvees to make them safer?
Wow, really! She votes for the fucking war and you blame him for voting to take care of our soldiers. Tells me exactly what is wrong with her supporters.
Z
zalinda
(5,621 posts)were taken care of when he attached a rider to a bill for them.
Z
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)eom
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)And I don't want any gifts at Xmas either, thank you.
I never could find a good use for white phosphorous.
zebonaut
(3,688 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Hillary did not invade Iraq, her vote would not have changed the outcome.
Iraq was caused by bush and the imbecile republicans who were allowed to steal office, partly by the close vote count caused by nader supporters. A Gore presidency would have been far better than a bush one, and more people would be alive today.
zalinda
(5,621 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)It was stolen because the CURRENT Chair of the Florida Democratic Party worked for ChoicePoint when they were purging over 80,000 eligible, probably democratic voters, from the rolls for Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris.
And as a bonus prize, her husband was lead counsel in the Bush v Gore case. On the Bush side!
And people wonder why we're stuck with DINO's like Debbie Disaster and Bill Nelson.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)As an elected official she couldn't have done more to stop the unnecessary war we were lied into?
If her vote couldn't change our course towards war then why say one person's vote in the general will change the election? I don't understand why anyone thinks guilting people into supporting their candidate will do anything other than drive them away altogether. That type of response will bring about your feared election loss more than you're misplaced belief that Nader lost the election for democrats.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)The media is culpable. As our the citizens who supported. As are those who didn't protest against in the streets what was being done in our name. If you think a senators vote didn't after then there is absolutely so hope for you or your ilk.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)in the white house, and she's to the Right of Bush and McCain on many issues.
RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)And, really? Nader again? I like Al Gore, a great deal, but his campaign was very weak. I can't recall how many times I steamed at the TV screen 'right there! For God's sake attack the bastard!'
And his weak campaign made it possible to lose to a spoiled frat boy alcoholic whose daddy always kept him safe from the consequences of his reckless behavior.
You do realize that Bill Clinton would not have become President in 1992 without the candidacy of Ross Perot, right? I don't know how old you are, but that's how things played out. And even then, the sexual misconduct scandals almost sunk him.
Me, well, I like a little bit of actual democracy from time to time. The implications of the alternative are much, much worse than the difference than the question of how many wars Donald Trump would start as compared to Hillary Clinton. Especially given that I think you've got it backwards.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Or was she just completely clueless, thus displaying her infamous BAD JUDGMENT.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)Again. Amazing. That's all ya'll got. I must of read about this 5 times in the last 2 days.
Try the Thirdway.
Nader, WTF?
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)is why any thoughtful human being would vote for Her Royal Highness? Especially after looking at the horror she helped create...
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)Somewhere in the neighborhood of FIVE MILLION people have chosen to vote for Hillary so far in the primaries. Do you believe that none of these people are "thoughtful human beings?" Do you think they are all on her payroll, or have been brainwashed somehow?
There can be no real discussion, no real debate, as long as there is no mutual respect.
I like Bernie. I will vote for him if he gets the nomination. I am not supporting him now because I honestly believe Hillary is the better candidate. I believe her experience is more relevant to the presidency than his, and I believe that her goals are achievable.
If she "helped create" the horror in the OP's pictures, so did a lot of other people, Bernie included. We would have gone to war without her vote, just as we did without his. The war would have been funded without his vote, but he voted to fund it anyway.
I am amazed that this war, which we have spent years blasting Bush, Cheney et al. for (rightfully so), has suddenly become entirely the fault of Hillary Clinton. A thoughtful human being would know better.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)"A thoughtful human being would know better"?!?
Millions of people are voting for Trump. Does that mean his supporters are "thoughtful" human beings?
And, if you want to know the extent to which the M$M can "brainwash" people, you should read about Edward Bernays, or watch "The Century of the Self."
You can continue to cling to your perspective of Hi11ary, and justify your support in whatever way works for you. Just don't expect me, or virtually any other Bernie supporter, to understand how you can support her. It's nothing short of astonishing how many people think she's "the better candidate."
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Thespian2
(2,741 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)Unless they happen to live in the Middle East.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)I am having a hard time seeing where she has been good for women or children.
-none
(1,884 posts)LonePirate
(13,429 posts)History is being re-written faster than it can be read!
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Votes count. This isn't rocket science.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)LonePirate
(13,429 posts)None of this uncommon or unusual, let alone surprising.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Makes me physically ill.
She said that in 2008, long after it was clear the war was based on lies and the scale of the tragedy was mostly known. After Abu Ghraib even.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)You all keep ignoring the barbarous genocidal maniacs we helped put in power and allowed to stay in power even after committing atrocious war crimes.
Fortunately, most Americans don't get caught up in revisionist history.
Obama was "the hope and change" candidate when America was looking for a change!
Most people today are pretty much content with more of the same. Hillary is the candidate.
OldArtilleryMan
(7 posts)However, Iraq had something of an economy. The Sunni and Shiites were living in peace with each other and were intermarrying. There was no ethnic cleansing or killing of the other sect. All that is gone.
There would be no Isis now if we had not invaded and deposed Hussein.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Few know that we along with the Uk supplied Saddam with the chemicals for his chemical weapons. And you seem to think we helped put him in power, and that is not correct
Yes he was a very bad man - as a country we don't have a problem with that- Uzbekistan anyone? But the country was on its knees due to a decade of sanctions and posed no threat to anyone. Are you proposing we invade every country with a vicious dictatorship and "free" them?
If you think most people are content you must not get out much amongst people
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)nor warranted. If you did not watch the videos herein above, you have no idea how disgusting is Hi11ary's assertion.
I get that you're a Hi11ary supporter. However, I just don't understand how ANYONE can support her.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Some people simply cannot see past their own irrational hate it would seem.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Wow. Way to ramp up a defensive response...
You came across as a Hi11ary supporter. So glad you voted for Bernie.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)I simply do not believe she would prevail if she becomes the Democratic nominee. Too many people dislike her, and too many people think she's a liar.
Also, I am disgusted with the Democratic Party du jour. It bears little resemblance to the Party of my youth. DWS and the DNC are examples of just how bad it's gotten.
Time for a change. Feeling the BERN!!!
#NotMeUs
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)Point Cheese Sandwich
lastone
(588 posts)No questioning the anointed one - even here on an "open" forum!
zentrum
(9,865 posts)Response to Cheese Sandwich (Original post)
Post removed
desmiller
(747 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Her eyes do look very cold but apparently the picture is real. It was featured prominently in the Atlantic magazine
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/hillary-and-the-burden-of-clintonism/392609/
Lorien
(31,935 posts)Now I need to find some kitten pics to use as mental floss.
Response to Cheese Sandwich (Reply #59)
gordyfl This message was self-deleted by its author.
chapdrum
(930 posts)something we have forgotten to do?
Why we must we endure (let alone vote for) people as the Clintons and Bushes?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Now, accept your neocon/DLC/Third Way/Republican/Wall St./corporate shill candidate with enthusiasm, dammit!
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I was hoping the video would have contained the statement in the graphic. I would like to hear her say it. Is her tone and inflection as bad as I imagine it? "we have to make clear to the Iraqis" sounds threatening, like there might be a reason to suppose that the "gift of freedom" isn't really a gift one would want Santa Claus to bring.
Perhaps this is all perplexing, but what is most perplexing is how Mrs. Clinton sees Iraqis not has humans but as "business opportunities."
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Humans have not evolved enough to live on this earth in peace.
Some of us are thrown into the conflicts. I was drafted.
Our lives are not totally defined by those things. I think people should not judge my life by that war and what I did there.
It is good that you have the space to judge Hillary as you do. At least you aren't putting yellow ribbons on your car.
Bernie is not going to be a better commander in chief because of how he voted on the IWR.
Hillary isn't going to be a bad commander in chief because of her vote. Things time and people change
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)of disregard for human life and suffering, especially of darker skinned foreign people, which I find racist. And then two years later selling it as a chance for corporations to make bank, that was also sickening.
chapdrum
(930 posts)Her cynicism is seen as rational pragmatism.
Too bad so many of her supporters share that.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Cheese Sandwich, we NEED to know these things and I appreciate your effort getting this out there. Thank you.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)the actual quotes of their candidate before setting up their straw men and red herrings? She either doubled down on her support for the Iraq War by calling it a gift of freedom, paid for with American blood to the Iraqi people, and got all condescending by suggesting they use the gift wisely, or she did not. Then she told the money boys on Wall Street that the catastrophe she voted for was a business opportunity, or she did not. If she did, and she did, that is fucking disgusting and not spinnable. So quit trying. She keeps telling you what she is. Listen to her. Then go puke.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)That's why I said, hopefully we can all agree this is offensive and disgusting.
We should all be able to agree on that at least.
chapdrum
(930 posts)nor likely, much care to.
People as the Clintons and Bushes have done (and do) their part to keep us accustomed to the "war" s) they bring upon u$.
Let the little people (whom our legislation has reduced to choosing the military as their most viable job hope) fight and die for fossil fuel, and the further enrichment of stateless sociopaths like those many found in the Bush Jr. "administration."
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)bombs used by the us military, no Hilary we do not want the gifts you have given the Iraqis. Take them back. Put your ugly genies back in the bottle. Take your genocidal "gifts" back.
And Obama thinks another trillion of "small nukes" is a great idea! WTF is wrong with these people?! WTF! WTF! WTF!
Cary
(11,746 posts)Carolina
(6,960 posts)What this nation has done TO the Iraqi people is unforgiveable; and those who aided, abetted and defended such action are reprehensible.
As I have posted elsewhere and will state again. What was and remains unfathomable to me was how any alleged Democratic 'leader' could vote for IWR and herewith are just a few reasons:
Reason 1: Iraq did not attack the US; fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were Saudis while the other four were from the UAE, Egypt, Yemen. They learned to fly here in the States (Florida, Arizona). Bin Laden was also Saudi!
Reason 2: Iraq had been under horrific UN sanctions since the first Bush war on Iraq in 1991; so how could it have morphed into an imminent threat to the US in 2002 when IWR was being peddled
Reason 3: W's administration introduced IWR and demanded a vote on it right before the 2002 midterm elections. Wise men questioned the timing and the rush but not those who voted aye... they had their eyes on being POTUS and cast calculating votes that reeked of political and moral cowardice.
Reason 4: Anyone who was paying attention knew about PNAC and therefore knew how the Bush cabal and Carlyle group had their eyes on carving up Iraq's oil fields. Clinton sure knew because the signers of PNAC policy papers wrote him seeking pre-emptive action while he was POTUS. And Kerry should have questioned pre-emptive war since he served in and then questioned Vietnam. He also should have questioned anything pushed by the Bushes because he had been part of the Senate investigation into Iran-Contra... about which the elder Bush as VP and former CIA chief claimed the big lie of having been "out of the loop."
Reason 5: the Bush cabal STOLE the White House in 2000 because they had their PNAC plans. Then, they ignored all the warnings/chatter leading up to 9/11 (remember the 8/6/2011 brief). They allege they were blindsided and could not have foreseen such an attack, but that flies in the face of the fact that the airspace had to be closed around the G-8 summit in Genoa, Italy in July 2001 which Bushco attended, precisely because of terrorists' threats to fly planes into buildings! So therefore, why would any sentient 'leader' of the opposition party trust or "have good faith" in ANYTHING proposed by W
Reason 6: Anyone who knew history, knew that Reagan sold WMDs to Saddam/Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war (recall the photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand). So when Cheney took to the airwaves in 2002 talking about WMDs and said he knew where they were and how they'd been used against the Kurds, he was telling the truth... about 1988. He was using his dirty past to foment a new war for oil
Reason 7: the Bush cabal withdrew the weapons inspectors because they were not finding anything. Scott Ritter (who was smeared) and his fellow inspectors' findings would not/did not conform to the desired Bush narrative, so Colin Bowel sold his soul and did his 'tube' presentation to the UN
Reason 8: Citing the Tet Offensive during the Vietnam War, Robert Byrd gave an eloquent and passionate speech about lies that lead to war, about the waste of war, about the unintended consequences of war... and he challenged the rush to war. Bob Graham and Ted Kennedy spoke as well. Why didn't other Democratic 'leaders' listen to them rather than to Bush or Cheney? Through their aye votes, they gave Bush bipartisan cover and therefore, they have blood on their hands, too
Clearly the rationale for IWR was all a LIE, and if a little old Jane Q Citizen like me (along with thousands of other citizens) could see all this, why not Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards and Kerry?! They all voted aye, they all ran for POTUS and they all lost. I held my nose and voted for Kerry-Edwards in 2004 because they were better than Bush, but it was unnerving to watch and listen to Kerry's meandering justifications when he was called out on his aye vote.
So in 2008, there was no way I was going to support HRC precisely because of her IWR vote. Votes have consequences as do the ghastly speeches justifying such awful votes. There is no apology large enough, no justification valid enough to cover a cowardly, finger-in-the-wind vote that has caused so much death, debt, destruction and destabilization! That women should never be president.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)the last 50 years,,,,, geeeez....
This Trashing of a potential Democratic Nominee should be removed
chapdrum
(930 posts)do the country and the rest of the world a favor, and remove herself from the race.
She's been largely complicit with what the Repugs have done; she is responsible for her behavior and votes, not the other party.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)potential democratic nominees should be removed .
Time to bring back the Democratic in DU!
SylviaD
(721 posts)greymouse
(872 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)I think some of us have started noticing that.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)The New York Times deciding that the tenth anniversary of the Iraq War wasn't special enough for a major retrospective, that highlighted a serious problem in our country.
The lives lost matter, the faking of a casus belli matters, refusing to deal with the reality of its implications matters.
http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/03/iraq-wars-10th-anniversary-the-invasion/100475/
But yeah, anyone running for President needs to be heard regarding this. Jeb! was compelled to speak his piece. It was found to be basically nonsense, and now he's gone.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)not
this ain't your dad's dem party anymore, but it is finally moving back in that direction
sus453
(164 posts)Agreed.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)I hope we can all agree that HRC's attitude toward Citizens around the world has been disgusting and offensive.
certainot
(9,090 posts)of the loudest limbaugh stations - stations that were essential to lying us into war and tried hard to get us into iran, and now continue to blast the country with pro trump republican racism and global warming denial.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)2) wtf are are talking about? What's not working?
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)That woman is a menace to world peace.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)But really, shouldn't Democrats be held to a higher standard? The Clinton wing of the party is indistinguishable from the establishment Republicans. We can do better. Elect Bernie!
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)Perogie
(687 posts)Guess she didn't do the work
KoKo
(84,711 posts)And then a couple years later she made these further disgusting comments selling the destruction of Iraq as an opportunity for corporations to profit:
jwirr
(39,215 posts)think that depleted uranium would be safe to use?
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)RiverNoord
(1,150 posts)That's the most callous and disturbing statement I've ever read made by a Democrat about the Iraq war.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)fbc
(1,668 posts)liberal N proud
(60,339 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)SMH
.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)tone deafness. She had better hope that no one does tell the Iraqi people what she said.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)Some times the truth is just plain ugly. I don't know what Clinton's motivations were for voting in favor of the IWR - and later the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Does anyone here recall how harsh our sanctions and years of bombing already were? We had thousands of children already being born deformed. We had thousands of people already sick, dying, dead, or living in misery. We had already brought that Nation to it's knees.
They did not want to fight. They were not responsible for 9/11 - Saddam and Bin Laden hated each other. There were no ties proven, there were no weapons of mass destruction... folks, there was NO smoking gun - and the available documentation at the time indicated that. The inspectors asking for more time indicated that. The millions of us here and abroad protesting indicated that. Those of us who knew what was already going on in that Country... the massive suffering already taking place... we knew this wasn't just a bad call, but let's call it what it is, a crime against humanity. The slaughter of people who didn't want to fight us, who didn't even have the power to effectively work against us or harm us... who were already suffering from the results of a massive military and economic defeat.
We took a place like hell... and somehow, we made it even worse. We looked at a people who were already suffering - and inflicted still greater suffering upon them. There is no excuse, no rationale, no justification that makes sense. The only thing I believe we can do here is apologize... profusely and create a government that focuses on diplomacy and humanitarian efforts over ignorance, hatred, war and threats of war.
Freedom... ultimately, must be earned - and it must be earned by those desiring it. It cannot be given, for what can be given can be taken away. The absolute worst thing we could have done was precisely what we did. You cannot "create freedom" in a sovereign Nation by invading it and forcing the issue of so called democracy, when our own democracy is so deeply flawed it is an honest question as to whether it is actually an oligarchy, or, simply put, a Nation truly owned and governed by the 1%, corporations, and the power of the almighty dollar.
Everyone who voted in favor of the IWR, who voiced support for that war, who promoted it... they did not perform their due diligence. They did not know what the hell was going on - if they had, there is no way they would have voted to do it, I can't honestly believe they would have. Not if they were actual human beings who bled and cried and cared. The saddest thing of it is - the same people who were ignorant then are ignorant now.
What happened there was not freedom. It was, and remains a deep tragedy. It remains a crime committed by one sovereign Nation against another - yet there is no powerful coalition of Nations, nor a super power to hold us accountable.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)HA what a bunch of .....!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Promethean
(468 posts)seasoned with the blood of the innocent are delicious when you have no soul.
Gamecock Lefty
(700 posts)artyteacher
(598 posts)She and the world are Bush's victims.
Stop blaming the victims
chervilant
(8,267 posts)the illegal invasion of Iraq, I first learned about depleted uranium. The bus full of activists had a lively discussion about the depleted uranium video we had just watched, and most of us agreed that we had never heard of this strange weapon.
Oh, and Dick Cheney colluded with Pappy Bush to use depleted uranium during the 1991 Gulf War:
During the early aerial bombardment and later tank war, President Bush and Secretary Cheney authorized the use of massive amounts of depleted uranium armaments for the first time in the history of warfare. This material is produced only by the United States and had been used experimentally in Vietnam and the 1973 Israel-Arab War. Internal Department of Defense reports had warned since 1943 about its use, and accurately predicted its poison gas effects on our troops.
The Most Toxic Battle In Western Military History
In his article, The Gulf War Was The Most Toxic Battle In Western Military History, Dr. Malcolm Hooper, emeritus professor of medicinal chemistry at the University of Sunderland UK, attributes the symptoms of mysterious Gulf War Illness among American and coalition troops to a combination of toxic substances to which they were subjected.
These included, in addition to weapons of mass destruction, experimental vaccines, anti-nerve gas tablets, aerosolized pesticides, and smoke from hundreds of burning oil wells. Some of the vaccines were not approved by the FDA and had never been used on human subjects. No one had studied the interactive effects of as many as seventeen vaccines administered at the same time. Many soldiers became violently ill immediately after receiving the battery of shots and others developed a variety of symptoms later. Strangely, the normally bureaucratic military kept no records of who received what shots and when.
However, most researchers cite radioactive poisoning from depleted uranium shells as the deadliest element in the Gulf War Illness cocktail. In the 1991 war the Pentagon fired more than 340 tons of DU projectiles at targets in Iraq and Kuwait. More than a half million Gulf era veterans are on medical disability.
(For more on this travesty, go here.)
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)They are shocked at what a mess the whole situation there STILL is and they KNOW because they have family there.
She should be ashamed.
sammythecat
(3,568 posts)I agree that Hillary Clinton's attitude toward Iraq has been disgusting and offensive. From beginning to end. And "We came, we saw, and he died" didn't make me laugh either.
Yes. Disgusting and offensive.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)Response to Cheese Sandwich (Original post)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
dchill
(38,516 posts)But other than that, nice kid.