They invented a charge used to detain him and refused to allow him to leave as he requested.

4 days into this now and they haven't apologized.

The charge seems specious - but - honestly, that guy also seemed like a jerk
(not that he needed to be arrested for being a jerk - the police should deal professionally with jerks, just like anyone else). But had I behaved so poorly, I wouldn't have posted it.

his friend did.

They wanted to card his wife also when he was purchasing alcohol. I hope that fake red haired clerk loses her job. That is NOT against the law to ask for policy. They couldn’t provide because there is none.

What WalMart clerk has the right to demand ID from the children accompanied by their parent or legal guardian? There's something very wrong here. And a post above mentioned that he was being a "jerk." Well he was being harassed and detained illegally. Who wouldn't be at least a little upset? This guy should end up owning WalMart and the city of Muskogee.

The clerk has the right to ask for I'd of everyone in the group. It is to try to stop the purchase of alcohol for minors. Weird law, but that is what it is. Walmart is very strict on their associates following their state law.
I am an Optician at Walmart, and I have to sign off on the policy twice a year. I have never sold alcohol in 23 years. Still have to sign off on knowing the policy.

when I worked at a liquor store in Florida in the 90s it was company policy to ID everyone in a group. If they came into the store together they all had to be of age. If one wasn't and they all left and the legal one came back in we would still tell them to take a hike. Which they most likely did to one of the many other stores remembering to l

But we didn't ID kids. First, kids don't carry ID up to a certain age and older kids can have names different from their parents as often as not. If it looked like a parent/child/family group we sold the booze. It wasn't something that came up very often as people tended not to bring their kids to the liquor store (we were a free-standing store not attached to a grocery store or Walmart).

It was a miserable and depressing job but t least I can say my boss always had my back in regards to decisions not to sell. He said he'd never get mad at me for not selling if I thought something was hinky but I would get the wrath of Hades if I did sell when I shouldn't have. And he proved it often.

you have to show the IDs for everyone in the group you are with.

They told him that. He started cussing and yelling at them, saying he didn't believe it, he wanted to see that in writing, etc. He became belligerent and abusive. They were printing out the policy, but he cont'd being abusive. That is why the cops were called.

Cops aren't mental health workers. They should have handled this better. But it was all caused by the belligerent customer. The laws apply to people in wheelchairs, too. You have to show an ID for everyone in the party that is buying booze. If you don't want to do that, or can't, leave the ones w/o IDs in the car or standing by the door.

I wonder if the cops could have simply rolled him out of the store?

...had to show ID at checkout. If I'd been elsewhere I wouldn't have had to. I have a more complete version of that story downthread, but in short my friend became a pissy little asshole about it and I wanted to get swallowed by the ground I was so embarrassed by his behavior.

... put yourself in the position of a disabled person. Disabled persons are routinely infantilized and treated as if they are not competent adults. He was initially offended that the clerk asked his wife for I.D. It may be Tennessee law, and the guy may not have been aware of it, but from his viewpoint, he was being told his agency as an adult was somehow insufficient. And while the clerk may have been within her legal rights to ask for ID from his wife and kids, there's a real question as to whether she actually would have done so had he not been in the wheelchair.

to try to see from all vantages.

Btw, I had to show ID in florida when I bought sparklers for the 4th of July at the supermarket.

horrible. I'm sorry. I hope they sue this city and those cops who participated.

Unbelievable and they SAT on his back? I hope to hell Jason and his wife SUE the hell out of the police department.

....to "stand up"? Are they serious? Then four big burly cops on top of him while he lay on the floor?

From what I gather early in the video, apparently he was buying alcohol and that woman with the purple/red bad dye job asked his wife and two children for ID. It's confusing but that's what it seemed like. I agree with someone else here, he was somewhat of a jerk (could have been having a bad day and being confined to a wheel chair doesn't make one happy) but none of that was called for. They could have just escorted him from the store, especially since he already said he was leaving anyway.

With that whole long 20-minute incident the store manager or supervisor never showed up? Really?

This is not going to be good for those cops for overreacting OR Walmart for escalating the incident.

.....they pepper sprayed him! They claimed the guy (who is paralyzed from the waist down) was "resisting arrest"!!

Unfortunately the television station misrepresented what actually happened, seemingly putting most of the blame on him.

Unbelievable.

http://www.newson6.com/clip/14726244/muskogee-police-respond-after-video-shows-officers-pepper-spraying-army-veteran

make the disabled vet bow to their power. He refused and they escalated. That's my opinion.

I hope there is a court case. Plus it sure looks like police need some further training. For goodness sake, the guy was in a freaking wheel chair. Was it necessary to knock him out of it and pepper spray him? Wow.

The guy wanted to leave on his own and the cops illegally detained him.

In particular, asking the police for their supervisor and insisting that he doesn't have to show his ID to the police.

The police mishandled this incident very, very poorly, all that aside. At the very least, they need to learn how to de-escalate such things.

but there are circumstances in which they can. They vary from state to state.

Not having seen what preceded the events of the video, it's difficult to tell whether any such circumstances applies.

Like I said - the police acted very poorly and should be punished for their actions here.

Even in states that have stop and frisk laws the police still need reasonable suspicion.

I'm not going to watch the video because it sounds like no one involved came out looking good. But it sounds like he precipitated the whole fiasco by making a scene at some workers just following state alcohol laws. I was with a friend last year when we went to the grocery store and he wanted to buy some wine which he'd done numerous times without incident. There was a usual cashier (a store manager) who knew him and didn't check his ID anymore because we're in our 30s and she knew that (even though state law requires checking ID every time of purchasing parties meaning both my friend and I, even though he was purchasing and I wasn't, I don't even drink). This time, however, he had a different cashier. And he asked to see ID. My friend became irate. It was absurd. Not the ID check, but my friend's behavior. He didn't make a full-on scene, but Christ I was embarrassed. Even after we left (he got his wine after he all but threw his ID at the guy) and I explained to him state law and that the guy was just doing his job and following state law, my friend continued to bitch and moan.

So no, I'm not particularly interested in hearing this guy's sob story. That his vet status is being used as a McGuffin for his behavior makes it all the more repugnant and entitled. I am legit wondering if the WalMart workers were black too, that'd be an interesting dimension to his behavior.

think being an asshole to a walmart cashier deserves that?

Care to point out where I cheerlead the cops? And as said elsewhere, and shouldn't need to be said at all, if workers feel threatened by a customer, or a customer refuses to leave after having been asked to, those workers are well within their rights to call the cops. We don't have a full picture since the video starts late, but shitting on the workers just because they work for WalMart is not firm ground to stand on.

Is it not-stupid to assume the “if” with no reason?

We're on the same page that this whole thing was stupid and unnecessary. Beyond that, we're just going to chase each others' tail in semantics and what-ifs.

Wow. Just wow.

I can play your game too, make you say things you didn't.

So I think I’ll go with that. I’ll leave the imagination to you.

Further information about the incident, and everyone still looks terrible:

https://muskogeenow.com/police-man-claiming-to-be-disabled-vet-attacked-officers-threatened-civilians-before-being-pepper-sprayed

https://ktul.com/news/local/disabled-veteran-says-he-was-pepper-sprayed-by-muskogee-police

I’m more interested in what happens when the story goes national.

There's a reason we sarcastically go "Yay cops!" Likely little meaningful punishment will be doled out to the officers.

I’m pretty sure Wal-mart and the bumpkin Muskogee PD is going to get the shit end of that stick, unless the guy winds up shitting in a bag the rest of his life. At least Wal-mart has the good sense not to comment.

did I accuse you of cheerleading the cops? he wasn't asked to leave hence why watching the video would be relevant. I just gave you the bottom line of what transpired. a whole bunch of cops assaulted a guy in a wheel chair. not sure who you think was shitting on workers FOR working at walmart but there was at least one in that video that was clearly an asshole. she apparently baited the guy into hanging around while she called the cops. that is contradictory to him being asked to leave. Major Nikon tried to explain the situation to you but I suggest just going ahead and watching the video so you can at least know what you are talking about.

I’m not breaking the law and neither was this guy. If this guy was an ass, and I’m not saying he wasn’t, the remedy for Wal-mart was to tell him to leave. Instead they called the cops. That was their fuck up. The cops fucked up by illegally detaining him for not producing an ID in a situation where he wasn’t required to do so. What his behavior was or wasn’t doesn’t excuse the cops’ behavior.

him to leave? Workers are absolutely within their rights to call cops if they feel threatened or a customer refuses to leave after being asked to do so. We don't have a complete picture of what happened here, but arguing the law isn't the law is just so stupid. The seller has a legal obligation to ask for ID from people buying alcohol, and has no obligation to sell to those that refuse to produce that ID.

Had Wal-mart asked him to leave and he didn’t, that would be an open-and-shut case of trespassing and neither Wal-mart or the cops make that allegation in the video, so it seems pretty not-stupid to assume that isn’t the case. Neither does anyone in the video make the claim of being threatened, which could also be a crime. Seems also kinda not-stupid to assume that didn’t happen. Making those assumptions with no reason doesn’t seem to be as not-stupid. YMMV.

I suppose if you want to further venture down the road of not-stupid we can also assume he wasn’t jerking off in the aisle or shitting in his hand and throwing it at random strangers, because like those other obviously illegal things there’s nothing in the video that makes those allegations either.

What we do know from the video is the only reason the cops gave for the arrest is “obstruction” and their idea of that crime is the refusal to produce an ID, which by itself isn’t a crime. Arresting someone without cause is not just stupid, it’s illegal.

If you live in a state that has no minimum alcohol age or a state that doesn't mandate ID checks for alcohol purchases, good for you. Just like I said to another poster, please feel free to point out where I cheerlead cops. Made it pretty clear how I felt about their actions in the first post and moved right the fuck on from them. And if you're going to go down the road of more obtuse and absurd scenarios, save yourself the trouble and don't. Yet again, we don't have a complete picture. We have cops being pricks and a vet also being a prick. We have workers calling cops on said prick.

Regardless of what the laws are, there’s no violation in not producing an ID to buy. It just means they may refuse to sell. You further imagined this guy was trespassing and threatening people with no reason to believe that happened. So yeah, absurd scenarios was kind of the whole point there so thanks for noticing.

I didn’t say you were cheerleading the cops and neither did Kali. If you want to burn down that strawman, go ahead but kinda seems equally pointless.

What we have is a pretty good reason to believe the cops broke the law and the guy did not. Even if you can dream up some reason why he did break the law, the response is worthy of contempt.

Last edited Wed Jan 2, 2019, 12:47 AM - Edit history (1)

Edit: So this incident was in Oklahoma not Michigan. I'll leave this post for transparency, but yes Oklahoma has a required ID check for alcohol purchases too like Michigan.



MCL 436.1701, Section 701 (10) (b)

When laws are passed, regulatory agencies dictate policies to ensure they are enacted and enforced. A 14 year old can look 22 and I at 37 have been mistaken for 20. So as is often the case, ID checks typically either mandate checking the ID of anyone who looks younger than such-and-such age, or more broadly check everyone's ID.

We seem to be talking through each other. You're focusing on cops demanding ID, I'm focusing on the workers fulfilling their legal obligation per state law. And it should be noted that that is state law, if local law is more stringent then local law becomes the preeminent guideline.

I have the maturity to own my mistake AND leave it there for others to see before I owned up to it. Could you ever claim the same?

Neither do I think strawman rhetoric is all that intellectual sound. If you want to impress me with a mea culpa about something that isn’t so easily disproved you might start with taking back the nonsense that Kali or myself claimed you were cheerleading the cops.

But yeah, I can and do take stuff back all the time despite your totally mature backhanded implication that I don’t. I try to avoid those situations by treating people at least as good as they treat me and avoid making assertions I can’t even begin to support. Obviously YMMV.

Alcohol and ID check laws exist. You argued law isn't law and pretended your personal ID mileage was relevant. I may have been initially mistaken about which state this occurred in, but the correct state ALSO has such laws. The implication you're both trying to slyly say you didn't engage in was that I was excusing the cops' behavior. Playing cutesy games of "I'm not touching you." doesn't impress me.

Then you pretended I contradicted you in claiming alcohol ID laws don’t exist which actually would have been kinda stupid, were it anything more than strawman bullshit. Meanwhile what you actually did say was...

Neither of us are going to walk away from this feeling good. Let's just take the high road and walk away from this. We're wasting each other's time.

So yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about right now. YMMV.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but I will commend you for the effort even if you couldn't manage to get the links right.

Now let's actually post what you alleged just to finish this up for the cheap seats:

And what you feel is called smug. Happy is what you feel when you successfully change someone's opinion or view. If your participation in this leaves you feeling "good" then you should re-evaluate how you interact with others. I've only felt gross this whole time. I don't enjoy arguing with someone I would otherwise agree with.

But since you want to make an issue of it, I'm also quite happy to provide the full context regardless of how you want to tell me not only what I didn't say but how I'm not feeling.

Here's what you said:

The brief statement of contempt was all they deserved. Even said later that I had no interest in bothering with them. It was pretty self-evident to all here they were out of line. If Kali interpreted my post as victim-blaming, then I apologize to her. All you're doing is repeating the examples of how my stated position was ignored utterly. I will leave everything up for others to decide for themselves. You and I aren't going to agree.

I could really give two shits about whether you agree or not, but if you're going to post inflammatory nonsense about me and/or my friends then you can expect a response. Guess you're just going to have to deal with that, or not, I can assure you I don't care about that either so please don't pretend otherwise.

And no, ignoring your position is not what I'm doing and your latest false allegation is just more nonsense. I addressed every point you made quite clearly. Pretending I ignored it is utterly ridiculous. You are claiming both Kali and I accused you of "cheerleading" the cops. That's bullshit, and you either know it or should know it by now. If you want to keep dragging it out, be my guest. I'm happy to correct you.

send him on his way. No let's drag him from his wheelchair and rough him up . Great idea dummies.

Everyone is still awful, but apparently the cops did try for a while to get him to just leave no harm no foul before they up and tackled him.

This is trumpmania. Hope there is more coverage of this.

Wal-Mart has yet to issue a statement yet. Very telling that.

There must be a crime that police are investigating. The 4th amendment still exists and even though the SCOTUS has watered it down to allow all sorts of police thuggery, they still are required to be in the process of investigating a crime to compel you to produce an ID outside of exercising a privilege that requires an ID like driving.

The very fact that they were called to that walmart probably is enough to claim that they were investigating a "crime". And they have the upper hand because "failure to follow the directions of a peace officer" is a crime itself. So is disturbing the peace, which is what they charge you with when you yell in public.

Bottom line, your not going to win an argument with a cop so why even try. Take it up with a judge, or file a complaint.

I speak from experience.

Thankfully social media and widely available video equipment is working to hold police thuggery in check.

Sovereign citizens use some of these terms but they also get a ton of stuff completely wrong. The vet was 100% correct that he did not need to show his ID until they could tell him what crime he had committed. When they finally gave a crime which was a completely bogus charge he did give his ID.

Which is one of the stupidest things a cop can say. The cops also appear to be taking legal advice from the Wal-Mart employee.

I lived near Muskogee for 9 years. It's pretty much the epicenter of Dumbfuckistan.

. . . The man was correct and fully within his legal rights on both points. And the day we begin using the factg that a person, in asserting his or her established legal rights is somehow suspect because a certain controversial group happens to similarly assert its rights, this country is in deep, deep trouble!

If we have "rights" that we cannot freely assert, then in point of fact they are not rights at all.

Maybe it's being reported in the local paper.

I feel safer. good job, pigs.

Last edited Wed Jan 2, 2019, 01:00 AM - Edit history (1)

for?" To which they said "For not showing his ID." WTF???? That is not a fucking law! So he kept asking "What am I being detained for and they said obstructing an officer????"

The cops should have deescalated this and let people go on their way. These cops and that cashier were absolutely terrible and walked all over his civil rights!

They are even more ignorant in the rights people have.

Unfortunately the best recourse is often to go along because holding them accountable is a long shot and you run the real risk of permanent injury or death. To literally add insult to injury there will be no shortage of people who will believe you probably had it coming.

and been the target of or witnessing belligerent customers hurl abuse and disrupt the store on numerous occasions, I'm willing to give the police the benefit of doubt. On this occasion. If the manager of the business asks you to leave. Leave. If you think you've been treated unfairly, go over the manager's head and contact his boss or corporate. Blast on social media and even contact the news if you think it's bad enough. And sometimes it is. But very often it's not. And even when it's not, it's common for corporate to give something to the person complaining, even when the complainer is in the wrong. But if the guy stayed and started getting belligerent and abusive, I have NO sympathy for him. Sometimes policy sucks. And when it's something that also has possible criminal and civil liability, such as selling alcohol, I wouldn't put my job on the line. Even if I disagreed with the policy. But yelling and hurling abuses then trying to play lawyer when the police come, if that is what happened, that's on the guy. People frequently treat retail and hospitality workers and managers like they are garbage.

based on the video posted. I would love to see the video of the entire ordeal including before the police were called to the scene.

At 3:29 the guy tells the police he wants to leave and they arrest him instead of letting him go peacefully. Yelling and hurling abuses isn’t a crime. The employee never says the guy was asked to leave. Had they done so and he refused that would be criminal trespass and the cops didn’t say that’s why he is being arrested.

These stupid cops and store management could have let him and his family leave and if they needed to feel better about themselves told them to never return. Instead they pull a man out of a wheelchair and apparently cause him further harm for no good reason. He said he would leave the cops should have left it at that. Whoever trained these cops should be fired along with the cops. Shamefully stupid.

the police messed up. They should have diffused the situation.
Physically messing with someone in a wheelchair like that is risking a whole bunch of trouble they may well have to pay for.
Without the start, it is hard to appreciate the entire episode fairly.
But watching them hurt him was sickening.

Still think the cops handled things poorly but it sounds like this guy could be a scumbag. He also joked about running Charlotsville protesters over.


https://muskogeenow.com/pepper-sprayed-man-charged-with-assaulting-police-obstructing-disturbing-peace-and-trespassing

He bragged he had video of it
But we're probably not seeing it because he doesn't come off very well.

Often in life, things happen for a reason. I suspect he is guilty of provoking some of what happened to him.

Having said that, I still think the police handled it poorly. There was absolutely no necessity to hurt him like they did.