I say this to qualify something else I've said, that just because I like *one* song by somebody doesn't mean I like all his stuff. But I have to say there are about a half dozen of his for me. Not to mention that some of his things were hits for other people.

and alcohol/psychiatric problems at the time. My take is that all I cared about was the soaring melody of the song, which to me has nothing to do with the "story."

A case in point is MOZART's "Queen of the Night," the most enchanting melody as much as EVER, yet with the most ridiculous story lyrics EVER:

than 20th/21st century pop music. But I know what you mean.
And totally different from both of those is, for example, Mahler' s Kindertotenlieder.

argument: I love the music of Chandelier and Queen of the Night *AND* totally don't care about the lyrics of either. It comes down to art-for-atr's-sake vs Program-music, no? Historical period don't matter.

The Chandelier argument? I looked it up but, don't understand...?


What is 'art for art's sake' VS "program music?"

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2019, 02:13 PM - Edit history (1)

* The Chandelier argument - I said (in the o.p.?) that somebody here tried to explain to me that Sia's song (Chandelier) is about (the lyrics describing) her horrific, devastating drug/alcohol/psychiatric problem, that she wrote the song (music and lyrics) either during the bad times or after she was/is in recovery. Since I do not listen to music and am not current with the latest things, I had never heard Chandelier until it was crassly featured in a commercial for Dior perfume. The soaring fragment of melody in the commercial gripped me and I tracked it down. Obviously, the commercial deleted, made no reference to, drug lyrics. And when I found it on YouTube, I played it for myself several times, without even once listening to the lyrics, JUST for the beautiful melody. I posted it here and a DUer connoisseur of pop culture thought he would add to my experience by explaining Sia's experience in coming up with the song. Wrong. I fully empathize with another human's personal travails, and admire or actually ENVY their talent to turn whatever experience into an inspired piece of art, but when a beautiful melody is gripping me I have *ZERO* interest in the word descriptions of whatever, not beautiful emotions or horrific emotions. Just. the. music. A cliche is that artists suffer, that it takes suffering to make great art - maybe, or rather, sometimes. But when the dust settles, it's the beautiful art that is left, or left over.

* Art for art's sake; Program music - I'm no scholar, so I can't provide which century it was when the creative people where arguing whether art is a thing just in itself or whether it is supposed to "mean" something. That is, whether its value is just by being its beautiful own self or whether it gains meaning by expressing some MESSAGE. While "the Chandelier argument" is a name I made up to label the DU topic here, "Program music" is an actual musical term, which I'm sure you know: Music that has an agenda. This applies to the DUer who tried to explain Sia's Chandelier to me. He was "adding value" (as he thought) to the song by referencing Sia's lamentable experience, so in his sense the song was Program music. To me, all I care about is the melody, so it is Art for its own sake.

* Your "defense" of MOZART's opera lyrics in Queen of the Night, against my slamming them as bizarre, was to elucidate that in that SPECIFIC HISTORICAL PERIOD those lyrics were normal. That is the same as the Chandelier argument: That because Queen of the Night's lyrics belong to the opera genre of that historical period, I should accept it without calling them bizarre/stupid/repulsive or whatever. No, all I like is that aria's beautiful/gorgeous MOZART music. The mastery of the music and the technical brilliance of the singer (singing the music) is all I care about. Words/lyrics give the singer something to hang her voice on in order to perform the music.

very clear, thank you.....

Let me see what I can come up with. :&gt )

that music and lyrics go together like a hand in glove, like butter and popcorn and like tRUMP and corruption! Thanks for the songs. Willie brings back some good memories.

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2019, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

a strong melody and a strong lyric can be a SUPER HIT.

Lenny BERNSTEIN demonstrated this in a Young People's concert, taking a beautiful song and substituting lyrics from anywhere else or even nonsense words as lyrics and it's the melody that counts.

I realize that when the matching of melody and lyrics is perfect (which I already granted to you that it can happen a lot - think RODGERS & HAMMERSTEIN), my argument is faced against your argument that says the two things as one and the same, equal. But I refer you to Lenny. Call him. He'll answer!1

my perspective.

From: "my opinion, which counts for much more than yours from my perspective"

To: "from my perspective, my opinion counts for much more than yours"

Or: "my opinion counts, from my perspective, for much more than yours"



********** Another opinion of mine: I usually find that true musicians are free-wheeling in their open mindedness.

Some are abrasive for whatever motive.

Say, here's an idea: Why don't you and I drop the sideways approach and just go upfront to acknowledge that we have a little edge towards each other and go about the rest of our lives? I mean this in the nicest possible way.

George Ivan Morrison to be exact... i like his work for both the melody and lyrics of most of his music, some for one over the other, but most times most...
and he ranges into several veins...
now this one is the poem of WB Yeats, which he had permission from the Yeats estate to produce... Crazy Jane On God
https://m.

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2019, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

ON EDIT, off the phone:

And perhaps part of that is because I am also a "casual" music listener. The tune will snag me first.

But even while reading your OP, I already knew that there is one song that is an exception for me.

(With the background note that my older brother disappeared when he was 26/7. He would be 68/9 now. We never learned what happened to him. I discovered this song (album) when I was clearing out his apartment. I was 22/3.)

Obviously, your personal pain is monumental, and I empathize as much as an outsider from it, like me, can.

In no way is "an exception" needed for a mountaintop pontificating of mine. Your song is very much your song that my little generalizing has nothing to do with. Sweet regards.

and 30 years have left my fond memories of my brother smiling more often than grieving, so I apologize if the post seemed more emotional than I intended.

My point was more that most songs grab me first, like you, with their music and that I could only think of one song where the reverse was true.

-b

And your overwhelming experience, if we trivialize it here, illustrates everything here perfectly.

That's a sure way of developing a fixation on the musical portion of a song, with the lyrics coming in a distant second. I speak from personal experience.

However, I choose to believe that pure music is "it" and that it is an objective truth out there that pure music is *all*.

A funny thing: In my (old) day, there was a definite split between music and sports type people, never the twain shall meet. In "adult"hood, when I incorporated "sports bars" into my goings-on, I realized that I had to tolerate the t.v. sports, which I do by just ignoring it all around me. But I have HAD to learn the very basics of the main games just to be able to join in a bit. So it has happened before that I chip into a conversation with my minimal knowledge, and the other participants ASSUME that I am as much a fan as they are and they reply with some content that is WAY over my sports head, and I've said: "I don't know:: I WAS IN THE BAND!1"

Often enough, this gets a laugh. Sometimes the reponse is not that charitable.


******Another band story: The band director was putting us through the morning tune-up and there were some "off" sounds. Instead of taking some kind of corrective activity, he finished off the tune-up session and said, "That's close enough for jazz." Of course, we weren't playing jazz.

[link:https://m.

about melody. I am trying to say that I'm talking about the melodies that hit it FOR ME. Iow, not all melodies are equal (FOR ME).

In this particular case, first of all, this song does nothing for me. And I fully realize that it is a classic songwriter's classic success item. It's a top notch technical accomplishment in both music and words. I've heard this song many times, of course, not from choice, just when it popped up somewhere. It's not a melody that I would go looking for.

That said, I couldn't stand the long intro of this version and stopped it to get to the meat somewhere later, and Carly's voice is nice. But I stopped it after the first meat of the song, just is not my melodic thing.

In this case, while Carly is a top star, the only song of hers I've sort of liked was (guess...) You're So Vain. It's catchy. But in this case (Bewitched, etc.) I would say that her performance would be the best part of this particular piece, with music and lyrics a draw for nothingness for me.

I can't pinpoint my point: It's like what the Supreme Court Justice said about porn, I know it when I see it. With melodies, for me, I know them when I hear them (the ones I like).

I was trying to humor you a little

But now I'm bemused confirming I come across as get-off-my-yard!1

I've said clearly that for me music/melody is all there is. However, there are all sorts and many of tangents about compositions, lyrics, performances.

Several of my estimable DUers have posited lovely, wonderful songs - that are wonderful and lovely BUT not for me!1 Obviously, there are no right and wrong answers, or as grouchy creep Prince Phillip said, "There's no accounting for taste!1"

Anyway, I feel bad that some of my lovely/wonderful DUers have put forth some of their preferred songs that are not mine.

I have been unable to explain myself regarding what I mean as wonderful melodies FOR ME.

**********NOW my mind has cleared and this explains it:

* Some talent is better than other, some melody is better than other, some lyric is better than other, some performance is better than other.

* Here's the thing: Can't tell you why "Bewitched Bothered Bewildered" SUCKS for me but "Are We Out of the Woods Yet" sends me into bliss.


* But here's the answer: Nicholas CAGE.
Yip, that's it. I detest Nicholas CAGE and nobody who preaches to me about his talent/performance in Leaving Las Vegas can EVER change my mind.

To clarify entirely, allow me to list personalities who totally irritate me: Milton BERLE, Red SKELTON, Placido DOMINGO (not for current news), Dick van DYKE, obviously SHITLER, Jimmy FALLON, (etc., etc.)



***** This relates to MELODIES: some melodies are Nicholas CAGE. And NO lyrics can fix them.