Meanwhile, at the Wall, Jon and Sam catch up. “The army of the dead massacred most of the wildlings and the Night’s King resurrected them as wights. How’re you?” “I got laid.” “Awesome.”

and, the prominence of Shireen in the promo pictures has me worried for her - maybe Ramsay's raid on the camp kills her?

She's been shown to be a very kind soul and a tragic figure - I was hoping for a better outcome for her, but this is GOT so I should know better.

Btw, you've been very patient in enduring my many, many misspellings of names and places. Sorry about that, and thanks.

and, I'm not a grammer nazi like Stannis. It has also not been something I've had to endure - I enjoy sharing my enthusiasm for Game of Thrones.

but, if you go back, they have posters for each episode in the show so far.

They go all the way back to the very beginning and there are some absolutely gorgeous ones.

Thanks!

from Book 5 since mid 2011.

But since the show is progressing along at a rate that will make the books an alternative (or not) way to the ending....

Still, I dread the coming of HBO's decided upon cliffhangers.

I'm a bit of a purist. Just a bit.

If you're read any of Martin's Winds of Winter preview chapters, Sansa is still in the Vale there, flirting with Harry the Heir. But, her being in Winterfell makes me think that somehow, she ends up in Winterfell in Book 6, maybe with Littlefinger and her leading the knights of the Vale there? However, there aren't really any big hints about that in the books, that I can tell?

Hopefully without Littlefinger.

Manderly House, maybe? With Rickon? Since Wyman is already there...

Maybe a convergence.

there was also a comment in one of the books about a huge pack of wolves led by a huge she-wolf... Nymeria may come into play as well, and somehow I don't think she'll be siding with the Boltons.

I am watching the show now and well...I hope Stannis dies a very painful death.

that may have been the toughest death for me to watch on the show yet. RIP Shireen Baratheon.

I just can't believe they did that to her. How horrible.

Fly

Team Targaryen all the way!

is full of loathsome people - Stannis, Ramsay, Roose, Melisandre...

I admit, it worked. I didn't for a minute think he'd do it, especially after that earlier scene.

I understand GRRM and the writers doing a bang-up job of subverting all expectations, and certainly "no way are they gonna kill the cute, sweet, smart, innocent kid" is an expectation---

but it bummed me out, and seeing the dragon/arena/attack of the clones scene only somewhat cleansed my emotional palate afterwards.

And that red woman...I want her flayed.

I want Howland Reed to feed Stannis to the lizard lions. Piece by piece, keeping him alive as long as possible. Slicing off fresh meat every so often and tossing them to the lizard lions.

Sansa won't have any problems winning over the smallfolk. Heck, she could fling shit at them and it would be an improvement.

Except I don't want Sansa as Queen or Wardeness of anything.

Sansa's comment about dying while she still had pieces of herself (Or something like that); was she suggesting that what happened to Reek might happen to her?

if she didn't mean literally losing body parts.

if her strong identity as a Stark is going to prevent her from becoming "no one" ?

What will be better for the GoT storyline? If Arya becomes a "no one" it might take her away from the GoT story.

Unless Jaqen will allow her to finish old business so she can shed herself of being Arya, I would assess that Arya as a "no one" has a short shelf life. She is going to flunk the finals.

Sometimes I think the fate of their direwolves mirrors their fate. In small ways, if not in all ways

Sansa is sans a wolf. Has behaved as a Stark only in name not by attributes.

Arya's wolf is wild and free - and deadly.

Robb's is dead.

Bran's is Summer in a time of winter. Summer is what? Hope?

Rickon and Shaggy both reflect the lack of guidance and a feral-like quality. Off with a wildling, albeit a loyal one, to Skagos...and mystery. What will Davos find?

As for the show... who knows?

And perhaps we could also say Ghost evokes thoughts of Jon Snow's presumed parents, the long dead Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Or perhaps his own ghost? (should he warg and not live as himself)

I'm glad you pointed this out.

The direwolves have always been one of my favorite elements of the story.

Anachronisms, really, in much of the first few books. Except the past is coming back around. (Winter is coming)

Direwolves beyond the wall is the past breaking through again. They're one of favorites, too. No way I would have accepted Hand of the King to a Baratheon having seen the dead stag's horn in the direwolf.

Magic is returning to the land, in the books anyway. The Dragons are back.

In the GOT, the past is prologue.

Long ago, Bael the Bard disquised himself as a traveling singer and went to Winterfell. He disappeared with the only daughter to the Lord Stark, left behind a blue winter rose in her bed, got her pregnant, she returns with her son. Except they never really left, but had remained hidden in the crypts the whole time.

Bael goes on to be King of the Wildlings. Returns to fight the new Lord Stark, his now grown son. Can't kill him, so dies instead. The new Lord brings his father's head back to Winterfell, his mother sees it, and her love for the Bard causes her to jump from the Tower to her death.

A Bolton kills the new Lord Stark. (later)

Now, some will jump to what Mance did in the books...called himself Abel (Bael), goes to Winterfell as a bard and hopes to rescue Arya, who is supposed to be the bride of Ramsay Snow Bolton, but the bride is actually a childhood friend of Sansa's.

But I am reminded of Ashara Dayne, of Jon Snow, of Lyanna, of Ned, of Robb (death by a Bolton).

Not everything happened as in the Bael the Bard's tale but parts of it happened to different Starks, and those important to Ned's promise, or in ways that help with the promise, so to speak.

If you haven't read the books, my apologies. I'm off on one of my many tangents when talking A Song of Fire and Ice.

I like the way you explain the significance of the Starks in the story. I've read the first three books only, so some of what you're referring to is terra incognita for me, but still very interesting! (and I can kind of contextualize)

But with all the "keep to the old ways" and "the North remembers", it's hard not to think of the North and those in it as the past. But a past with a purpose. Especially with the past raising the dead (again) and preparing for war.

Wonder where the Others went for all those years?

I'm also bias - I am Team Stark.

Fire/Ice
Old/New
Past/Future


Dany wants to break the wheel, yet she is a spoke in that wheel.

Even if they aren't always the sharpest tools in the shed.

I thought that same thing about Dany when she says that line - how are you not a spoke in that wheel honey?

and if Jon rides a dragon, and he might

Then Targaryen, Stark, and Lannister would be represented on the Iron Throne. But maybe the best in all three families combining to rule.

Though Jon would also be Targaryen - he was still raised as a Stark, with all the Stark ways and qualities.

There's a school of thought out there that thinks Tyrion might also be a Targaryen. His mother is a Lannister by birth and marriage. Tywin Lannister is her first cousin.

Still, the 7 kingdoms would be well covered - Dorne favors the Targaryens, so how could they object to the trio?

Tyrion would bring in Lannisport, and those who hold fealty to the name Lannister.

The North will accept Jon because of Ned and Lyanna - and maybe Robb did legitimize Jon as a full Stark, so how could the North say no?

Besides, what if Jon is Azor Ahai? (and not Dany) How can anyone say no to such a hero?

The Freys could be dealt with, allowing the Reeds and the Tullys to take over the Twins & Moat Cailen (more securely). Not that I'm partial to the Tullys. I'm not. But needs be those loyal to them would object otherwise. So, it goes to the Iron Throne simply because the current Lord Tully will never best a Reed at anything....or a Stark or a Targaryen or a Lannister. (or any combination thereof)

I really want all Freys dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. To include the current wife of the current Lord Tully.

And Boltons. Dead. Dead. Dead. And Dreadfort to be renamed and perhaps given to someone very loyal to the Starks - and I mean the Starks - not the Iron Throne, though of course they would be civil to the Iron Throne.

And Stannis - end that line now. Except for Gendry and Mya Stone. Let them have Storm's End. Well, let Gendry have it anyway. Mya might not want to leave the Vale.

Sansa can be married off to the heir of the Vale (Harry) - once the legal heir (Robert) dies from whatever he needs to die from to be rid of the brat. So, the Vale goes to the Iron Throne.

Rickon takes over Winterfell. So it goes to the Iron Throne. (of sorts)

I fear Arya doesn't survive to the end and even if she does - will Jon allow her to be part of the Kings Guard? Maybe Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Maybe she weds Gendry and a Stark will be at Storm's End. Gendry is the most likely to allow Arya to be Arya, besides Jon.

Where is Gendry anyway?

Bran becomes what he becomes.

There! I've fixed everything! We can all stop reading and watching now.

I hope it does turn out that way, Except I hope Arya survives of course, but we know how much GRRM loves to kill Starks.

I'm saving your post for future reference to see how much of what you've written comes true,

Thanks!

I think the original title of The Winds of Winter was something like "A Time for Wolves" - so, that at least implies that the Starks will make a comeback.

I really didn't want everything to be about Dany going forward, but that's where I thought things were going. Maybe she goes insane like the rest of her family and never really learns to control her dragons. Maybe dragons and sanity just don't go together.

If the Starks rise again, all the better.

but, Sansa was pretty meek all along and Lady has been dead since book 1, or early in season 1. Sansa is still alive early in book 6 and late in season 5, so she's survived a long time without Lady.

You could also say that since Lady was the most Sansa-like of the wolves (more gentle/mild), maybe Lady dying was the catalyst for her starting to become more assertive? (But, it took her a while to do even that...)

Sansa, to me, is the least Stark-like of all the Starks. A condition Sansa herself sought. Even her name- Sansa.

Sans a - a whole list of things Sansa is without.

Lady dying didn't mean Sansa would die, but that her relationship to being a Stark became that much more tenuous. Lady's death wasn't about Sansa's survival as a person, but her survival as a Stark.

Even allowing that Sansa was the product of her upbringing, she was still more Tully than Stark, in all ways. She was more South than North.

And even when she was a prisoner in King's Landing, she hid behind that belief - a lady's courage is cloaked in her manners. I'm not saying it didn't serve her well in terms of remaining alive, but I am saying it unfortunately served to reinforce some wrongly held beliefs.

On the show, the previews show where she will say something to the effect of, at least I'll die still being myself or I must try while I am still mostly myself, and that probably means in relation to what Ramsay can do to her mentally, but Sansa has never known herself.

Not even now. As a child she was a product, a willing product, buying into the stories of great ladies and gallant knights lock, stock and barrel. She is still a product - of Littlefinger's. She is still just a piece, being moved about in someone else's game.

Littlefinger has taken her into a new direction, but I'm not sure such is necessarily a good thing. Littlefinger lacks honor - Starks do not.
That her eyes were opened did help - but opening your eyes to only see a small portion of the truth (Littlefinger's truth) means you're still being manipulated.

Sansa, alone at Winterfell and without Littlefinger, might just learn who she is - and that she is a Stark.

I don't like what it looks like Arya will be doing to kill Trant.

that it wasn't Meryn Trant, it was somebody that had deserted the Night's Watch. Don't remember how she did him in,though.

that they use Meryn Trant because Arya wants to kill him for killing Syrio Forel, who was from Bravos.

It's from the next book, the released chapters.

it was Raff the Sweetling. However, in A Dance with Dragons (the book), she also killed Dareon, the guy who Jon had sent to Braavos and beyond to sing the glories of the Night's Watch in an attempt to recruit more men to the Wall. However, he basically deserted as soon as he got to Braavos and Arya gave him Stark justice.

So, I figure she'll kill Trant along those same lines.

I know she killed the deserter but I think Trant's death will be based on the next book.

I had forgotten that scene from the WoW preview

Okay, so I take back all my complaints about this season's slow start. This was a pretty darn riveting episode, and on the heels of last week's excellent episode. They did find their stride after all.

Obviously, the pinnacle was the sequence in the fighting pit. Wow, that was cool! I loved the banter between Dany, Tyrion, Daario and Hizdahr (finally looked up the proper spelling of something for once). When Tyrion said to Hizdahr "my father would have liked you" - that was great. The battle was nicely done and suspenseful, with Ser Jorah BARELY surviving, and I must admit, I got kind of choked up when Dany forgave him (what can I tell you, I'm a tool). And all he had to do was save her ass for the umpteenth time. Then it was very cool and ominous when they pan to the crowd and they're all wearing those masks. Nice! Lots of great small moments, like Tyrion saving Missandei. But talk about an OH WOW moment - DROGON! God that was so cool!

This show, at it's best, really does a good job of turning me back into a 12 year old girl. I really want a dragon to swoop in and pick me up at my shittiest moments, and perhaps even more than that, I want a giant badass wolf to follow me around so no one messes with me. Well, who wouldn't I guess.

And then, I must say, I was skeptical they would actually do what they did to poor Shireen. I would have thought that setting a little girl on fire would still be considered too transgressive for American television, but they did it. Now when I rewatch it, it's going to be unbelievably sad watching Davos say goodbye to her (cause I was really thinking she'd be saved - silly me). I must give credit to the actor playing Stannis - when he was forcing himself to watch her burn, the look on his face, that was very powerful. Now we see that all those scenes of Stannis' softer side were leading up to this.

Speaking of Shireen, I'm assuming that dragon story she tells will be of some importance as we progress, given the amount of screen time devoted to her telling it. Making a mental note to go back and give that another listen.

I'm just trying to imagine how much the audience must hate Melisandre right about now (and Stannis, of course). I already hated her, even before she did this. Hoping something spectacularly terrible happens to her. I hate Selyse too. Can't she be sacrificed to the Red God? That would be nice.

Let's see, what else....

Dorne was kind of anticlimactic, and here I thought the daring adventures of Jaime and Bronn would be one of the highlights of this season. Boy was I wrong. Although I liked the exchange between Ellaria and Jaime, where she talks about not being shocked or scandalized by his choice of partner. She's kind of grown on me - I'm kind of fascinated by her (and I cannot stop staring at her amazingly long neck).

I hope I may assume Arya is going to give Meryn Trant a spectacular end in the finale. I wished Arya could have saved the servant girl who was given to him. Wasn't it ominous the way he said to be sure to have a "fresh one" ready for him the next night, implying that he was going to mess up the one he had pretty badly? Not a feel-good scene. But it will be good to see Arya scratch someone off her list at last (unless you count the Hound).

And I think I can safely conclude that we're leading up to something with Ollie. At this point we have seen SO many shots of that kid scowling - they surely must be going somewhere with it, and I assume whatever it is will be in the finale.

Well, well, well... here we are at the end once again. I did not think I would be as involved as I am so I have to say, well done GOT.

Last edited Mon Jun 8, 2015, 10:20 PM - Edit history (1)

that Shireen was going to meet a grisly end, though I'm not sure if book Stannis would do the burning, or if it would be Melisandre on her own? (They're not together in the books - Mel stayed at the Wall and did not march with Stannis)

https://games.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-just-delivered-huge-162109332.html

That book Shireen is still alive but something like that is going to happen to her in a future book?

yes, I think so. My guess is that it might be Melisandre on her own, or maybe Mel and a few more fanatical followers of The Lord of Light.

Stannis kills Melisandre eventually. Or would she always see it coming?

Are we supposed to think Melisandre is the most powerful practitioner of magic in the GOT world? Like, say, a lot more powerful than Thoros of Myr?