All I can do is send good vibes and that's it.

I'm so SO damn sorry.






And I sure can identify with how my mind keeps me awake when I'm worried about something. It's an awful place to be.

I'll get things sorted out. It might require some more sleepless nights, though. Even if I do end up going bankrupt, it's not the end of the world. Our house is in my wife's name and we're current on it and we have two cars that are in good shape and paid for. We wouldn't lose anything but my credit rating and my condo, and, as for that, I would say good riddance.

Up late because I really cannot clear my mind. Up too early (before the birds) trying to see the problem from a different angle. One day at a time. Looking for different options. Hoping that things will get better, not knowing if I can make a difference.

And, again, like you ... working toward solving the problem without giving up.

You'll make it Tobin. You aren't alone.

I appreciate the vote of confidence.

Moving to the condo would also mean mean moving 50 miles away from work for both of us and to a different state.

have you considered that the better course of action might just be to surrender the title to the condo to the mortgage holding bank and make it their problem to deal with? You'll lose most/all of your equity but it'll be one less bill every month and one less thing to worry about. Also, a lot of banks hate this so much that they'll move Heaven and Earth to convince you to not do it...and if not their wanting this headache is worth cutting your rate (and thus your payment) by a few % or writing-down the note a few grand or deferring payments for a year or offering to pick up the tab for a leasing agent (actually, most banks have one on-contract nowadays for renting out the properties they're stuck with and can't sell either)...would you say "No"?

It also at-least has the benefit of not being a bankruptcy on your credit history.

It sounds like what you suggest and I actually have the paperwork for it laying around here somewhere. I remember looking at it and thinking that I'm going to have to have a lawyer help sort it out for me. It's a very complicated deal, or at least they make it very complicated probably to discourage people from applying for it.

I live in the Midwest, so keep that in mind when I start talking numbers here. Typically, home values are much lower here than on the east or west coasts and so are salaries.

I bought the condo in 2007, right before the housing crash, for $33,500. My balance on the loan as of yesterday was about $28,800. I have had this place on the market for $20,000 recently and could not drum up a buyer. There is nothing wrong with it. It has newer carpet and paint and everything is in working order. I''m not behind on the taxes or condo fees. The condo is located in a nice, low-crime area. The housing market is still just shit here as far as I can gather.

My association fee is $204 and my house payment is $307. So $511 a month. Even with the place leased, we are still losing money every month. A cut in the interest rate won't help me much. I can manage the property myself as far as leasing it goes so I don't really have a need for a leasing agent.

I had significant savings over the past several years that have dwindled down to a few thousand dollars. I'm not behind on anything and I haven't defaulted on anything, but it's only a matter of time at the current pace. Typically, we have about $400 more going out every month than we have coming in on average.

The ideal thing to happen would be to find a better paying job, and I'm trying really hard to do that, but it just isn't happening for me at this point. Short of that, giving the place back to the bank is probably my best option if I can get them to go for it. I can probably kick the can down the road for another year before I run out of money, so I have a little time to hopefully find a better solution.

a lot of us have been treading water for years now, and slowly sinking, waiting for that next tidal wave to take us out...

Hang in there. Something will break for you sooner or later...

Thanks for the hug.

I apologize for the long post.

When I got a divorce in 1995 I moved in with my mother into her 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom condo and for a few years we lived OK because we shared expenses. then she retired and her income went down, but it was still OK because we both had great credit, which we were slowly forced to use more and more. She became bed-ridden and was diagnosed with Dementia in 2005. I couldn't afford to have anyone take care of her since it would cost me as much as I was making so I had to retire early because that way I could access my retirement funds, even though I still had to pay a 10% penalty for taking money out of it. I was managing to pay my credit card bills which kept adding up with fund transfers from one credit card company to another because the credit card companies were still offering deals to steal customers from each other. I also dipped into the equity for the condo. In 2007 my son traveled from NY to come and help me take care of my mother. He had to give up getting any full time job because I was the person with the higher and ongoing income. I went back to work in 2007 to UC Berkeley, but I could only get a part time job. Eventually I was able to get another part time job in UC so I was making a full paycheck. By that time I was basically paying one card bill with another credit card and the equity account. This was the only thing that kept us afloat.

In 2008 the big financial crash happened as we all know. As it turned out I didn't lose my retirement like others did because I had used it up staying afloat, so that was one good break, though it didn't help my problem. My mothers' income was cut in half early in 2009. That year all the credit card companies as well as the mortgage company started freezing everyone's accounts. Mine was frozen too so I couldn't pay one bill with another card anymore. I was also laid off at work, though fortunately the people laying us off rehired me. A month after being re-hired my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and given palliative care at home because she had insurance with Kaiser as well as Medicare.

She died in January 2010. I was able to cremate her remains as per her wishes because a few members of my union donated the money. And, of course, her pension income stopped. A couple of months later I started looking into declaring bankruptcy because I had to get rid of the credit card debt if I wanted a chance to have a roof over my head. I did all the work myself because I couldn't afford a lawyer, though I conferred with a Paralegal who told me what I need to do and all the paperwork I needed to get together. So I filed in June of 2009 and by September the court discharged it (meaning I won). But it doesn't end there.

I couldn't afford the mortgage so after studying up on the foreclosure process I stopped paying the mortgage. There's a set thing that happens during this time. Exactly three months after you stop paying you get a letter demanding full payment and six months after that you get evicted, but it's during that interim time that I requested a mortgage modification which were available because of all the thousands and thousands of people who were losing their homes to bad mortgage companies who were ending up having to pay for the maintenance of the foreclosed homes which they couldn't sell. The economy was really hitting bottom at that point and people were in very bad shape financially. I landed with a company that gave me a loan modification. The mortgage went way down to where I could afford to make the payments. It turns out that you are far more likely to get a loan modification if you stop making your mortgage payments than if you make your payments and ask for one. Crazy isn't it?

I still had a very hard time making ends meet until a few years ago when my union (Teamsters) negotiated a 5 year contract and for the first time in a couple of decades we got raises every year for 5 years. I can now make ends meet. I can pay all my bills and buy food every month. I sleep well now. No longer do I stay awake with that gut wrenching worry that can be so terrifying.

Sometimes we are sorely tested, but it's our choice whether we're going to roll up our sleeves and deal with what comes as it comes. When I saw all this coming, and while I still had my retirement and was caring for my mother I paid the balance on my car just so we would have a place to sleep. That's how bad it got.

What I think helped me a lot was the ability to face my fears of homelessness and the accompanying shame and simply do whatever I had to with full knowledge that my mother and I could end up homeless. I knew that the state would take care of my mother, and I very soon got over any fear of being homeless. People survive homelessness. I see it all around me in UC Berkeley. And I knew that even though I'm in my 60s I have skills that would get me employment.

All that is over and done now. It passed and I'm still here and I'm doing very well. And having faced all that I am now fearless about what might happen.

I hope this helps a little.

I just talked to my mom about my situation and she told me that barring a deed in lieu of foreclosure (discussed above) she'd just let the property go into foreclosure, credit be damned. My wife and I don't really need good credit at this point. We've got two decent cars paid for and our house is in my wife's name. Bad credit might hurt me in my job search, but it might have to come to the point where I'm just going to have to make due with what I already have. There are worse fates.

The really worst part about all of it is feeling shame. Remember, there is no shame in falling into bad financial times in spite of doing everything like sacrificing your time to go back to school so you can better yourself and your future.

You also might think about the advantages of declaring bankruptcy. The credit card companies have to stop harassing you with phone calls by law, and you're supposedly barred from getting credit for 7 years. If you're anything like me you'll find yourself turning down all invitation to get credit because even though you may not be able to afford lots of things, you can use your savings and use that, and end up with the real peace of mind you can only get from not owing anything to the credit card companies. If anyone wants to have your credit card number for whatever reason you can use your debit card. I do all the time and have never had any trouble with it.

But whatever you do I have full confidence that it'll be thought through and calculated. You're very smart and you know what it is to invest your time for a better future. Think of it all as an investment in the future for you and your wife.

let me add that the more I think and worry and create scenarios, the more I confuse myself.

One thing I found over the years is that a hard exercise session can often clear the mind. Often real solutions seem to pop up out of nowhere. A brisk walk, focusing on nature, an exercise bike with a radio on, whatever.
Plus you feel better and sleep better.

I like chan790s idea and also ruralib's. See what the bank will come up with.

It could be worse--your tenant could have wrecked the property and also stayed there a long time, all the while not paying rent. I had that situation and it cost me around 20 grand.

The 20 grand came out of my working capital. I will never get that money back, even though I have a court order. I used to be able to hire people and now I have to do everything myself. Where I once used to be able to keep a property in top shape, I now have to settle for it just looking fairly acceptable. I'm not happy with it, but I don't see many options other than just cashing out. You'll get through it one way or the other.


Cher