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LAS14

(13,783 posts)
Sun May 15, 2016, 10:23 AM May 2016

Transgender policies: What I hope Hillary says.

Last edited Sun May 15, 2016, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

The justice department publicized its position regarding policies about transgendered people and bathrooms and changing rooms in schools that received public funds just a few days ago. In the same story I heard that both the Hillary and Sanders campaigns were remaining quiet. Here is what I hope Hillary says.

“Bathrooms: Bathrooms and any other facilities where it is not necessary to display one’s genitalia should be used by people who present themselves as the sex of the facility in the rest of their lives.

Facilities requiring the exposure of one’s genitalia: Should be used by people whose genitalia match the sex of the facility.”

I think the DOJ’s position simply requires too much imagination and empathy on the part of ordinary Americans to work to anyone’s good, transgendered people included. Defendants of the DOJ’s approach (those I’ve heard so far) talk about education being the remedy. But education takes time. Maybe in the future we’ll all have a comfortable category for people whose sexual identity doesn’t match their genitalia, but to call people who haven’t reached that level of insight bigots is not going to be conducive to education.

In other words, I think public policy should be based on objectively observable criteria rather than on subjective states of mind.

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Transgender policies: What I hope Hillary says. (Original Post) LAS14 May 2016 OP
Department of Justice guidance: yallerdawg May 2016 #1
This. Treant May 2016 #2
Until society changes its understanding of privacy... LAS14 May 2016 #3
The Department of Justice action is the essence of progressivism. yallerdawg May 2016 #5
That's precisely the point. LAS14 May 2016 #11
I hope she supports the Justice Department statement SharonClark May 2016 #6
edited OP LAS14 May 2016 #4
If we're talking about public schools radical noodle May 2016 #7
DoJ examples. yallerdawg May 2016 #8
Thank you... radical noodle May 2016 #9
Thanks to all responders for... LAS14 May 2016 #10

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
1. Department of Justice guidance:
Sun May 15, 2016, 10:55 AM
May 2016
Restrooms and Locker Rooms.

A school may provide separate facilities on the basis of sex, but must allow transgender students access to such facilities consistent with their gender identity. A school may not require transgender students to use facilities inconsistent with their gender identity or to use individual-user facilities when other students are not required to do so. A school may, however, make individual-user options available to all students who voluntarily seek additional privacy.

It's not about accommodating "ordinary" Americans.

It's about equal and fair treatment to all Americans.

Treant

(1,968 posts)
2. This.
Sun May 15, 2016, 11:12 AM
May 2016

I'm willing to be a little uncomfortable (I might not be and probably haven't been when this has occured without me knowing) to increase somebody else's comfort.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
3. Until society changes its understanding of privacy...
Sun May 15, 2016, 11:19 AM
May 2016

... a good case can be made for the rights of people not to be observed naked by people of the opposite physical sex.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
5. The Department of Justice action is the essence of progressivism.
Sun May 15, 2016, 12:14 PM
May 2016

We want expansion of individual rights and equality under the law.

The criteria is not about genitalia - it is about recognition of 'gender identity' as a human right.

Very often in American history, the law comes first and the end of much of the discrimination comes afterword.

Case in point - President Obama.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
11. That's precisely the point.
Mon May 16, 2016, 08:37 AM
May 2016

I know what the DOJ said. I'm proposing that Hillary propose a modification. Can you give me some instances of where the law has preceded societal change but the law has been based on society's correctly understanding a person's subjective state? No such understanding was required to stop discrimination against black people. Obama not an example.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
4. edited OP
Sun May 15, 2016, 11:52 AM
May 2016

I edited the OP to add this sentence. "In other words, I think public policy should be based on objectively observable criteria rather than on subjective states of mind."

radical noodle

(8,003 posts)
7. If we're talking about public schools
Sun May 15, 2016, 12:35 PM
May 2016

and kids between the ages of six and nineteen, I have an issue with the showers. Most trans people, as far as I know, don't go through the sex change stuff until they're grown. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.) Exposing young girls to male body parts and young boys to female body parts isn't something I think is wise for either the trans child or the other kids. Isn't there enough body shaming going on as it is? I can just imagine what would happen in the boys' shower room if a kid with female body parts identifies as a male and goes in to take a shower. Even a gender neutral shower room could cause the trans child to be set apart from everyone else. (Okay, I admit I hated taking showers in an area wide open for all to see when I was a kid, with everyone comparing bodies to one another, so I am biased.)

It's nothing I'm up in arms about, but something that concerns me about this concept. Can someone set me straight and tell me the other side? Bathrooms are not an issue for me at all.

This is something I wish hadn't come up at this time. It could be a mine field in the election this fall. I do agree with your OP as a possible solution, but is that something that most can live with? What IS best for the trans child?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
8. DoJ examples.
Sun May 15, 2016, 01:04 PM
May 2016
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oese/oshs/emergingpractices.pdf

8. How do schools protect the privacy rights of all students in restrooms or locker rooms?

Many students seek additional privacy in school restrooms and locker rooms. Some schools have provided students increased privacy by making adjustments to sex-segregated facilities or providing all students with access to alternative facilities.

The Washington State Guidelines provide that any student who wants increased privacy should be provided access to an alternative restroom or changing area. The guidelines explain: “This allows students who may feel uncomfortable sharing the facility with the transgender student(s) the option to make use of a separate restroom and have their concerns addressed without stigmatizing any individual student.”

The NYSED Guidance gives an example of accommodating all students’ interest in privacy: “In one high school, a transgender female student was given access to the female changing facility, but the student was uncomfortable using the female changing facility with other female students because there were no private changing areas within the facility. The principal examined the changing facility and determined that curtains could easily be put up along one side of a row of benches near the group lockers, providing private changing areas for any students who wished to use them. After the school put up the curtains, the student was comfortable using the changing facility.”

Atherton High School, in Jefferson County, Kentucky, issued a policy that offers examples of accommodations to address any student’s request for increased privacy: “use of a private area within the public area of the locker room facility (e.g. nearby restroom stall with a door or an area separated by a curtain); use of a nearby private area (e.g. nearby restroom); or a separate changing schedule.”

The DCPS Guidance recommends talking to students to come up with an acceptable solution: “Ultimately, if a student expresses discomfort to any member of the school staff, that staff member should review these options with the student and ask the student permission to engage the school LGBTQ liaison or another designated ally in the building.”

radical noodle

(8,003 posts)
9. Thank you...
Sun May 15, 2016, 01:09 PM
May 2016

This makes perfect sense and would help other than trans kids who have body issues. Our society is way too obsessed with bodies, but until that changes, the option of privacy will be a welcome change.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
10. Thanks to all responders for...
Sun May 15, 2016, 05:15 PM
May 2016

... the thoughtful, civil responses. Such a difference from a similar post I made in GDP a while ago.

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