whom they have always revered, even though he was impeached for stuffing the Venezuelan Treasury into his musty old pockets and having his mistress deposit large blobs of it in U.S. banks. They support his massacre, of course. After all, the dead were only darker-skinned poor people. What did they expect? To have their great, fluffy butts kissed as if they were oligarchs?

They are his heirs also in calling for Chavez' death all these years.

F###faces.

propaganda factory. They've been hard at since their first overturned leftist President in 1954, all set up well in advance by a shit-storm of pure gibberish laid down through the communications media. That's well known as their pattern, known world-wide for it's pure filthiness. They're the most successful on the planet, of course.

Only the most unintelligent, however, attempt to bring such lies to life.

Or are you saying Washington made Maduro call the opposition "heirs of Hitler"?

Again, it's no surprise you'd defend anti-Semitism.

I'll wait while you look up one of what must be real reasons you feel justified in saying that.

Surely you wouldn't just be blowing it out your lower region again, would you? Senility? Exhaustion? Incompetence? Insanity? Diminished capacity? All that and more?

trivializes the Holocaust.

to South America. We can be sure that some landed in Venezuela.

forever, regularly, to misrepresent leftists in order to gain support for overthrowing leftist governments.

It's pure crap, being wildly spun for maximum effect as they hope to mislead people who don't take the time to listen more carefully or care enough to try to find the correct interpretation.

My google translation says Maduro said "This was denounced to the world, heirs of Hitler Venezuela campaign directed against the people of Cuba like the campaign that justified the Holocaust against the honorable Jewish people."

The conspicuous right-wingers (whom many have always seen as fascists, of COURSE) are trying to spin this, making a lot of smoke and odors, hoping if they make enough noise they can get some traction with it. That's just not going to happen.

Maduro didn't say that. You know it, we all know it, and it is comical that anyone is trying to work it that way. Right-wingers are the violent fools, every one knows it.

Capriles has stated, loudly, he intends to destroy the oil price subsidies for Cuba's 11,000,000 people, which have been in place after Chavez was inaugurated. Oil price subsidies for various countries is a practice which has been in place in Venezuela for YEARS before Hugo Chavez ever was elected, so the subsidies themselves are NOT unacceptable to the Venezuelan fascists, and they are willing to make the 11,000,000 Cubans endure more hardship just because they can do it if they can grab the Presidency.

They also will succeed in removing all the Cuban doctors and other personel who have been running the clinics, the missions, and teaching young Venezuelan medical students and technicians, so they can bring desperately needed medical help to the poor who have been unable to get medical treatment all the years before Chavez. We damned well know that, too.

For anyone to try to lie this much about things only shows there are some very unethical, des;picable people who would do anything to bring more hardship to those whose lives already have been far harder than they themselves could ever survive.

It's about time you hogs people butted out of the progress which is needed for the world to get better after you damned well nearly destroyed it.

So now you're saying that Google Translate gives a perfectly acceptable translation of anything you write in it? Maduro says it verbatim, in the video:

"Nosotros, y yo, lo digo en este momento como jefe de estado, esa campaña de intolerancia viola la constitución que le garantiza a todos los venezolanos sus derechos políticos. Hay que pensar en acciones para ponerle freno a la intolerancia fascista de estos herederos de Hitler! Así lo digo!"

Translated: "We, and I, I'm saying right now as commander-in-chief, that campaign of intolerance violates the constitution, which guarantees every Venezuelan their political rights. We must think about actions to put the breaks on the fascist intolerance of these heirs of Hitler. That's how I say it!"

I find it truly immature to designate the opposition as "heirs of Hitler" when Capriles's own grandmother survived prosecution from the Nazis. But of course, you must be an expert on the subject regarding the campaign of "intolerance" that the government claims to characterize the opposition living where you are. Obviously you're more knowledgeable about everything there is to know regarding the current situation in the country, especially without being a native Spanish-speaker.

They will do ANYTHING to advance their claims, anything which can't bring them trouble.

They are actually very cowardly, always looking for the safest way to harm others the most.

Saying you are a native speaker doesn't move anyone to believe you are good. Good people don't want to return the poor in their country to the state of desperation in which they have already lived all their lives, the butts of your jokes, your sneers, your hatreds, the very people you fantasize are your inferiors.

I don't think you're going to win any converts among people of conscience.

just because you don't speak Spanish.

...from having a more informed and more fact-based opinion than some Spanish speaking people here. Also didn't stop her of having more empathy for the Venezuelan people than some Venezuelan "expatriates" that seem to believe most of their compatriots are uneducated blind people who don't understand Chávez is destroying their lives.

As she is any time "translation issues" come up. I'm reminded of the vile homophobic slurs Maduro used last time.

is long enough so that there's no question about his words OR his intent.

How interesting that one of the most vocal advocates of the mess down that way can't even speak the doggone language. It explains a lot!

And I certainly know the reality of my country better than you or Judy could claim to.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you were in Venezuela or had any family members and friends that still live there?

World Social Forum, in Caracas.

Stayed in El Recreo and went a lot to La Floresta where the activities happened. Found it a wonderful city.

I know that area like that back of my hand.

Certainly doesn't show the real face of the city, though. That area is all within the Chacao municipality, which is an opposition bastion. It's filled with all those nasty middle-class people who are mostly all anti-Chávez. I'm actually surprised you found that area wonderful.

It's the divisive hateful shit that makes one side out to be the enemy of all that is good. I reckon that it's only a few thousand on both sides who foster the hatred.

But didn't say La Floresta was my favorite. Enjoyed El Recreo a lot. And there were activities in some of the cerros too. I'm not claiming to know your city better than you do. I'm answering your question about being in Venezuela.

He called the opposition "heirs of Hitler." That's despicable. Admit it. Own up to it. Whatever laudable programs Maduro may propose, that's a shitty, gutter-low dirty campaign tactic and you know it, and you should at least admit it.

So, you find it "truly immature to designate the opposition as 'heirs of Hitler'"...

But you had no problems in comparing Chávez's voters to nazis in a former thread...

"The idolatry that people give to Chávez is something bordering on religion, it's unhealthy for the mind. I'd go as far as compare it to the idolatry that Nazis gave Hitler."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110810748#post80

Some are now elevating Chávez almost to sainthood by their own terms.

Judy denies it. Surely she is correct, right?

But it is being taken out of context. He was referring to the intolerance of certain sectors of society (the video really doesn't give bases to say he was attacking the opposition) to medical community of Cuba and to the artistic and intelectual community of Venezuela. And I agree with what he's saying: several of Chávez critics do use fascist rhetoric.

And I don't think it's right to let the tree conceal the woods. He has a point.

The criticism chavistas face reminds me a lot of Lula.

Some years ago, for example, Lula said that the financial crisis was caused by "blue-eyed blond people" and we saw entire crowds in the press criticizing him for that and calling him racist. But he had a very good point (that the people who were suffering the most from the crisis are those who didn't have any influence in creating it) and this point was completely ignored and obscured by the criticism related to a small, pathetic and false detail (he's not, he's never been racist).

It's not even comparable.

Maduro is a homophobic, antisemetic, bigot.

no way to heat homes, cook, etc., etc. is serious.

You don't really seem authentic attempting to sit on your high horse. The last think in the world people associate with the right-wing is actual morality.

Why can't Cuba pay fair rates and stop taking from poor Venezuelans (whose oil wealth is their own by constitutional right)? To keep the status quo in power?

Mexico and Venezuela renew San Jose Accord
Aug 03, 2004 02:00 AM

Mexico and Venezuela renewed the San Jose Accord whereby the two oil producing nations supply a total of 160,000 bpd of crude to 11 Central American and Caribbean nations at discount prices.
The document was signed simultaneously in Mexico and Venezuela by Presidents Vicente Fox and Hugo Chavez, according to a joint communique.

The San Jose Accord came into existence on Aug. 3, 1980, and it has never been suspended. The countries that benefit from the special crude prices are Barbados, Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica, Nicaragua, Panama and the Dominican Republic, the communique noted. The pact also establishes "a cooperation mechanism to promote the economic and social development of the beneficiary nations."

The cooperation accord finances social-economic development projects in the participating nations, as well as trade of goods and services by Mexican and Venezuelan firms.
Mexico and Venezuela each provide half of the total 160,000 bpd of the crude sold at discount prices.

http://www.gasandoil.com/news/ms_america/ea01e3458a946efa00efd8fbb79b33c0

[center]~~~~~[/center]
As Mexico refused to fold Cuba into the ongoing (since 1980) San Jose Accord, Venezuela arranged a new accord with Cuba in 2000. It was rewritten in 2007 to allow Rafael Castro's name to be officially involved with the arrangement.

[center]~~~~~[/center]
Cuba, Venezuela sign over 100 cooperation agreements
English.news.cn 2010-07-27 10:26:34

HAVANA, July 26 (Xinhua) -- Cuba and Venezuela signed 139 bilateral cooperation agreements on Monday in northeastern Cuba.

The agreements were signed during a meeting between Cuban leader Raul Castro and Venezuelan Vice President Rafael Ramirez in Cayo Santa Maria, 350 km east of the Cuban capital of Havana, the official news channel NNTV said.

The cooperation projects, which focus on food, energy, mining, healthcare and light industries, will be launched immediately.

Trade between Venezuela and Cuba reached 3.138 million U.S. dollars in 2009, according to Cuban figures. Caracas supplies Havana with 100,000 barrels of oil daily, while receiving services from about 30,000 Cuban doctors and specialists in other branches.

More:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-07/27/c_13416895.htm

[center]~~~~~[/center]
For the hard of grasping, this kind of arrangement has been in place, FROM VENEZUELA to smaller nations since 1980, WITHOUT CHAVEZ, and no one took his precious time to try to get propaganda material from the situation by wailing it causes Venezuela to seem as though a "banana republic."

Petrocaribe is based upon the San Jose Accord, but it is not the same thing.

Cuba is a really direct example because Venezuela is giving away a lot to Cuba under the Convenio Integral de Cooperación.

We don't like it when the US gives subsidies to Israel, Jordon, Egypt, etc, to keep those governments in power. But we're supposed to say it's purely for altruistic reasons when Venezuela does it with Cuba?

$2.5 million a day was assuming oil at $58 a barrel. It's closer, then, to $5 million a day. Or nearly $2 billion a year. This is more than the United States gives to Egypt in aid every year. A country whose GDP is only 2% of the United States. That's an incredible subsidy.

I am personally not all that scandalized by subsidies among allied countries. In Germany, where I live, the states with higher tax revenue subsidize those with lower income to the tune of up to 3.4 billion Euros per year (Saxony, with 4 million inhabitants) - without any compensation. The only benefit I have as tax payer in one of the rich states is the satisfaction I may feel that Germans in the poorer states have access to the same quality of state services than I have.

However, I am sceptical about the numbers you are citing. According to Wikipedia, they are false (like so many other claims of yours we have debunked so far):

from Wikipedia (citing a Foreign Policy article without a link).

Cuba gets the oil at a 25% discount. Venezuela "provides" around 90,000 barrel per day, but they have to pay. Only the discount (25%) is in exchange for the medical and service personnel (which would be far more expensive were it provided by developed nations).

Which is why I didn't cite it because, predictably, quibbling occurs.

Anyway, it's still a massive subsidy as the math I did, citing your number, shows.

A government not giving subsidies to another government which can't provide for its people is suddenly comparable to exterminating innocents based on their race, sexual orientation and religion? You just keep sinking lower and lower.

and the Caribbean since 1982, well BEFORE Hugo Chavez was anywhere NEAR Caracas, anyway?

You need to take it up with the old Presidency at that time.

Nice try.

you believe Cuban doctors in Venezuela are being shipped to extermination camps?

you believe Cuban doctors in Venezuela are being shipped to extermination camps?

It's a simple question.

in accusing the political opposition of persecuting Cuban doctors the way Jews were persecuted, so you are obviously quite well qualified to answer the question.

etc, etc.

You know the drill. Sounds familiar? No?

Never mind conspiring to disrupt legal and open election, conspiring with foreign power to overthrow the elected government, affiliation with every damn RW neocon in sight, just to name a few things.

Now, do read my signature. Lets make the playing field clear: am a commie, CHAVISTA, peacenik, anti-war, etc, etc.

Really hate RW shills. Like really hate them. Clear enough?

Now, why don't you post some more RW spam. I m sure there is enough spew out there for you to post all day long.

I repeat: if the shoe fits...

You've already confirmed you're not a big thinker.

They always welcome newbie know-nothings chanting revolutionary gibberish.

Just be sure to wear your red beret and Che t-shirt. That's very important for the self-styled rebel.

You're sure to have more enjoyment in the future.

You're an admitted "commie, CHAVISTA, peacenik, anti-war, etc, etc."

What's missing? Oh, DEMOCRAT.

Thought so.

'Nuf said.

It's no surprise to anyone.

I know it's quite presumptuous of me to consider posters on Democratic Underground to be Democrats who support Democratic policies and principles.

Limey wankers have also posted in this forum from time to time.

Seems to them, you've got to have some kinda reason for not confessing you're a DemoncRAT.

Gotta be that it's because

[center]

Y'r a commie! That's right. Communist. Lucifer![/center]

Case in point.

From what I can tell, none.

I guess self-declared commies aren't clever enough to figure that out.

Must have that red beret pulled down too tightly over the eyes and ears.

shown here enjoying a good yok with his man friend, Roy Cohn:

[center]



Or this one, below, as they determine how fast
they want to go in their handbasket to hell......

[/center]

You should lay off the Mogen David. Drinking it won't change the perception you applaud Maduro's anti-semitic remarks.

LOVES you, you adorable little you!

So do you believe Cuban doctors in Venezuela are being shipped to extermination camps?

It's quite understandable, since to do so would be admitting the ludicrousness of Maduro's remarks.

I guess Maduro did not accuse the opposition of persecuting Cuban doctors working in the South American country the way Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany, despite all the reports to the contrary.

Typical Chavista response, BTW. Deny documented reports that makes the candidate look like a nutcase. Textbook Republican tactic.

Very commendable that you admit to posting RW spew.

Unless someone dubbed the speech, he said what he said. Watch the video.

Yours are some of the most childish and uncivil posts I have ever seen on DU. You really are behaving badly in this thread. And you're wrong, too.

if you don't want to slosh through the presenter's bit.

He did say it. It was certainly not his finest hour. In fact, I don't see how that kind of language, from a candidate himself and not some Rovian "other" pulling strings to influence opinion, is defensible, ever. Particularly not on a progressive discussion board. That kind of crap should be roundly denounced, always. That is an opinion, but it's one I hold quite firmly.

I'd take it seriously as soon as I see your reaction to some of crap posted by other posters in this thread.

"Limey Wanker" comes to mind right away. Doesn't offend me but am wondering if you think it was used affectionately? As a thinly disguised bigoted slur? Or is it only guilty of being a misogynist slur? I assume you do know what other nice word "wanker" stands for?

I respond to their posts as childish when they resolve to childish insults. YMMV.

Since you want me to comment on conduct in this thread, I'd say there's plenty of incivility to go around, and you own a VERY generous share of the blame for it. Certainly, it takes two to tango, but don't leap out on the dance floor in a firm embrace, and then pretend that you don't like the music or the choreography if your dance partner has better moves than you do.

That "squigly boo" shit you tossed out was childish in the extreme, and it reflects very poorly on you. You threw it out there because you weren't able to respond substantively to a question posed in a civil manner--it's a distraction tool to avoid addressing the key issue--that Maduro DID say what the OP averred he said. Anyone reading the entire thread isn't distracted, though--and you don't cover yourself in glory. That kind of behavior does put you on the radar, but not in a good way.

I am at a complete loss why this kind of conduct wouldn't be personally embarrassing to you. Aside from the fact that this kind of infantile behavior makes DU suck, you come off not like an adult having a conversation about a Latin American political issue, but like a misfit tween, trying to bully and goad someone smaller but smarter in an attempt to derail the conversation for purely disruptive reasons. If you weren't under the influence of drink or drugs when you wrote those comments, and your judgment was not impaired, you might want to introspect on how you deal with people here on this board. Or not--your fate is entirely in your own hands.

Now, if you're going to respond with some childish snark directed at me for calling it as I see it, please do remember that you specifically asked for my opinion about the behavior on this thread, and I am obliging you. To sum up--your own nasty, disruptive and pointlessly argumentative conduct is the source of your woe.

I am of the opinion that you don't really want to discuss these issues at all, you instead want to shit-stir. You haven't proven me wrong thus far.

to avoid the issue of using bigoted slurs on DU.

Now, I did not alert on that post nor do I intend to. I was called much worse before and I don't expect anything else from this poster. We do have a little history of interaction and after what they said before I have a hard time taking anything they post seriously enough to engage in a prolonged intellectual conversation with them.



PS I did answer their initial question once in a manner I believe was perfectly civil. Just because I am nice.

Of course I know what a wanker is; I lived in UK for years, where the term was commonly employed. For anyone reading along who is clueless to the meaning, I invite their attention here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker

I think you reap what you sow--is that specific enough for you? You brought on the comments with your snark and rudeness. It was apparent early on that you didn't intend to respond substantively to questions about Maduro's Hitlerian remarks; instead, you lashed out with distractions and rudeness.

It's not a "bigoted slur" to call someone a wanker (it's beyond me how the behavior of wanking, or the state of being a wanker, can be construed as bigotry, FWIW). It's an activity that is common, one that no one likes to talk about, and if one does it too much, one might go blind, according to granny. That said, in the context of this thread, it was used to suggest that you were behaving both stupidly and uncivilly.

If the comment were to be cleaned up to "G" rating standards, I'd say that the intent behind calling you a "wanker" was to suggest that you were chain-jerking, i.e. borderline trolling.

The comment wasn't literally about you or your penis, if that's what concerns you. I think you already know that, though.

unfortunately it exists. I would expect someone who so loudly denounces homophobic remarks by Maduro (and he is a homophobe, no argument about that from me) would at the very least check what slurs they use before they use them. Just so they don't look like a RW hypocrite later.

As to the rest, I gave this particular poster as much civility as they deserve or offer to others.
Feel free to alert on my posts if you believe I am trolling.
There is no reason to continue conversation with you any further.
Have a good day.

I'd need to see a link that even suggests that connection, because it's not an association I've ever seen made.

The common usage is translatable to the American "jerk off" or "pud puller" and is, as the Wiki definition pointed out, generally used not as a sexual commentary, but to suggest that an individual is an idiot.

Obviously because they consider themselves communists, they automatically know everything there is to know about everything, so obviously they feel some sense of self-entitlement which somehow means that they have the right to evade whatever question they can't answer properly.