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Catherina

(35,568 posts)
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:57 PM Apr 2013

Letter from Venezuela: After Chavez, country on brink of an all-out showdown between the two halves

This deserves to be read in full.

Letter from Venezuela: After Chavez, a country on the brink of an all-out showdown between the two halves of its society

Published: 17 April, 2013
by LEO GARIB in Venezuela

...

In Merida riots broke out. On Monday I took a desperate phone call from a young CNE official who said they were trapped and “terrified” by the baying crowds outside. In desperation some were arming themselves with the legs from their desks. It took heavily armed National Guard to disperse the mob.

Later clashes erupted between the Caprilistas and Chavez supporters arriving from the poorer areas – Chavistas. For two hours the air was thick with flying bottles, stones and smoke bombs before National Guard, taking pistol shots from the Caprilistas, moved in.

In a day of violence that had some media pundits warning there was a coup underway, Capriles supporters across the country ransacked hospitals and a medicine factory, smashed public schools, wrecked public transport networks and torched the offices of Maduro’s socialist party. At least seven people were killed, including hospital patients, and scores wounded.

...

A group of hardline Caprilistas barricaded themselves into a private hospital and a school, taking potshots with their pistols.

...

Stones and smoke bombs were launched at the buildings, motorbikes belonging to the Caprilistas torched. Riot police among the Chavez supporters took turns hurling rocks and shooting into the buildings. For more than an hour the air was thick with smoke and gunfire before the young men were flushed out and handcuffed. They turned out to be students from the city’s wealthy private university.

...

A 20-year-old medicine student at the city’s University Los Andes explained why she supported trashing the government-subsidised trams used by low-paid workers. “They’re a waste of government money – our money,” she said. “We just don’t like those people coming up here where we live. Ok, Chavez built the tram system but it wasn’t with his money, it was with ours.”

...

http://www.camdennewjournal.com/news/2013/apr/letter-venezuela-after-chavez-country-brink-all-out-showdown-between-two-halves-its-so
27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Letter from Venezuela: After Chavez, country on brink of an all-out showdown between the two halves (Original Post) Catherina Apr 2013 OP
"They turned out to be students from the city’s wealthy private university." Tempest Apr 2013 #1
+1 Dawson Leery Apr 2013 #2
University Los Andes in Venezuela? Related to the Chilean Opus Dei University Los Andes? SharonAnn Apr 2013 #12
I think there are several of them. ocpagu Apr 2013 #23
The Andes are indeed in Venezuela in the western part of the country Bacchus4.0 Apr 2013 #26
nothing like and unsourced anecdotal letter. nt. naaman fletcher Apr 2013 #3
Some people say. Mika Apr 2013 #5
huh? naaman fletcher Apr 2013 #6
Spectacular writing, and it's wonderful seeing it. I'll be sharing this information! Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #4
Is there any evidience of this? naaman fletcher Apr 2013 #7
How's this? Next time you go look for information since you speak some Spanish Catherina Apr 2013 #8
Aporrea? Really? That's probably the most pro-Chavista website on the planet Marksman_91 Apr 2013 #9
Oh, we all know this country would never covertly harm anyone, don't we? Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #13
Show me scientific proof that cancer can be induced... Marksman_91 Apr 2013 #15
It would all depend upon how easy it is to get to the president they want to destroy. Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #18
Still waiting on that scientific proof... Marksman_91 Apr 2013 #19
this thread should be erased since its been proven false about attacks on clinics Bacchus4.0 Apr 2013 #27
Video: Capriles people tried to charge the CNE again Catherina Apr 2013 #10
I don't really see them chasing anyone in those videos. Marksman_91 Apr 2013 #11
Yeah, we all remember the trustworthy videos the opposition produces, Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #14
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Marksman_91 Apr 2013 #16
It's already been established the CNE protests were peaceful. joshcryer Apr 2013 #21
There was one person they burned alive They intended to kill her by burning her. They set her ablaze Catherina Apr 2013 #17
Thanks for Amy and Alex. n/t Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #22
armed attack on the residence of West PDVSA CEO, Ricardo Coronado. Workers to protect/defend Catherina Apr 2013 #20
Hideous. They were just looking for a chance to destroy things, to vent their hatred. n/t Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #24
This had been planed for a long time. Perhaps since Chávez got sick... ocpagu Apr 2013 #25

Tempest

(14,591 posts)
1. "They turned out to be students from the city’s wealthy private university."
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:11 PM
Apr 2013

Not happy with losing their privilege, are they?

SharonAnn

(13,777 posts)
12. University Los Andes in Venezuela? Related to the Chilean Opus Dei University Los Andes?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:34 AM
Apr 2013

The Andes aren't in Venezuela. Chile, Argentina, Peru, Bolivia, but not Venezuela.

The only University Los Andes I know is in Santiago, Chile. It's an Opus Dei university. And wealthy is an understatement. It's buildings and grounds are like palaces and parks.

 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
23. I think there are several of them.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:20 AM
Apr 2013

I've heard of the one in Chile, but there are others with this name in Colombia, and Peru, etc. Don't know if all are funded by the Opus Dei, but the majority are catholic.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
26. The Andes are indeed in Venezuela in the western part of the country
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 09:54 AM
Apr 2013

the U of A is a state university.

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
6. huh?
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:36 PM
Apr 2013

I didn't post that. I was the one who said that was an old picture.

But, I'm glad you agree with me.

Judi Lynn

(160,555 posts)
4. Spectacular writing, and it's wonderful seeing it. I'll be sharing this information!
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:33 PM
Apr 2013

What a delight seeing something which hasn't been fed through the corporate filter before it reaches us.

Here's something which was missing from any of our earlier (over every damned year since 1999, of course) propaganda poop fed to us daily, a tiny detail from the new article:

Many Maduro supporters predict economic sabotage by US firms controlling supplies like food.

Well, well, well. And not one of these wire services or news passed on from Venezuelan news services felt it important to tell US citizens that some of the people who were blocking the flow of food products to Venezuelan grocery stores were actually good old USAmerican food distributors! WTF!

But ON and ON and ON they have droned, browbeating the Chavez Presidency for actions which are CLEARLY under the control of US corporations, as well as Venezuelan corporations all working to steal the government back from the people's elected officials.

Every part of this story is a gem. How ####ing refreshing. Thank you, Catherina.
 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
7. Is there any evidience of this?
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:37 PM
Apr 2013
Capriles supporters across the country ransacked hospitals and a medicine factory, smashed public schools, wrecked public transport networks and torched the offices of Maduro’s socialist party. At least seven people were killed, including hospital patients, and scores wounded.

Where is the evidence for this?

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
8. How's this? Next time you go look for information since you speak some Spanish
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:11 AM
Apr 2013

All of those things happened. I followed it all but you can't possibly expect me, one single person, to chronicle and translate it all for you as its happening.

All those things were reported. All of that information was reported, in individual stories, as they happened, on http://www.aporrea.org/ and other news sites.

I suggest you comb through the link I just gave you if you really care because I regretfully don't have the time to be anyone's dancing monkey.

In Barinas they arrested 12 people with mortars Tuesday night and a few military officers are being investigated. They attacked a factory that produces medicines in Merida. Attacked a kindergarden, every symbol of what Chavez had accomplished for the people came under attack. There are many more stories out there. Maduro isn't making accusations of deliberate destabilization lightly.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
9. Aporrea? Really? That's probably the most pro-Chavista website on the planet
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:36 AM
Apr 2013

Hell, it's actually run by venezuelan chavistas (or should I say "Maduristas" now, since now there are Chavistas who have turned against Maduro, so we can't generalize now). How about you show some evidence from unbiased sources? I'd like to see some up-to-date video footage or photos (and don't say "just google it yourself&quot

Recently, Maduro claimed that some CDIs from Misión Barrio Adentro were attacked by the opposition, and yet, SOMEHOW, they're still intact:

http://www.laverdad.com/zulia/25436-no-hubo-destrozos-en-cdi-del-zulia.html

Please don't believe everything from clearly biased sources. Next thing I know, you're gonna show me something that Eva Golinger wrote as "proof", the woman who claims that Chávez's cancer was inoculated by the US.

Judi Lynn

(160,555 posts)
13. Oh, we all know this country would never covertly harm anyone, don't we?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:53 AM
Apr 2013

Or maybe we live in utter darkness to NOT know the U.S. history regarding helpless people.

A couple of incidents which weigh heavily on the minds and consciences of decent people in this country:


Syphilis Experiments Shock, But So Do Third World Drug Trials
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES (@SusanDJames)
Aug. 30, 2011

A commission set up last year by President Barack Obama has revealed that 83 Guatemalans died in U.S. government research that infected hundreds of prisoners, prostitutes and mental patients with the syphilis bacteria to study the drug penicillin -- a project that the group called "a shameful piece of medical history."

"The report is good and I applaud the Obama administration for giving it some sunshine," said Dr. Howard Markel, a pediatrician and medical historian from the University of Michigan. "Internationally, what we do as a human society is to make sure that these things never happen again." But medical ethicists say that even if today's research is not as egregious as the Guatemala experiment, American companies are still testing drugs on poor, sometimes unknowing populations in the developing world.

Many, like Markel, note that experimenting with AIDS drugs in Africa and other pharmaceutical trials in Third World countries, "goes on every day."
"It's not good enough, in my opinion, to protect only people who live in the developed world -- but all human beings," he said.

The U.S. Public Health Service and the Pan American Sanitary Bureau worked with several Guatemalan government agencies from 1946 to 1948, exposing about 1,300 people to the sexually transmitted diseases syphilis, gonorrhea or chancroid. They infected soldiers, prostitutes, prisoners and mental patients. More than 5,500 people in all were part of the medical experimentation. And the presidential panel said government scientists knew they were violating ethical rules. Scientists wanted to see if penicillin, which was a relatively new drug, could prevent infections. The research was paid for with U.S. tax dollars and culled no useful medical information.

This week the Obama commission revealed that only 700 of them received treatment and 83 died by 1953. The commission could not confirm whether the deaths were a direct cause of those infections.

More:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/guatemala-syphilis-experiments-shock-us-drug-trials-exploit/story?id=14414902#.UW-HR-oo7_Q
[center]~~~~~[/center]
U.S. Apologizes for Syphilis Tests in Guatemala
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.
Published: October 1, 2010

From 1946 to 1948, American public health doctors deliberately infected nearly 700 Guatemalans — prison inmates, mental patients and soldiers — with venereal diseases in what was meant as an effort to test the effectiveness of penicillin. American tax dollars, through the National Institutes of Health, even paid for syphilis-infected prostitutes to sleep with prisoners, since Guatemalan prisons allowed such visits. When the prostitutes did not succeed in infecting the men, some prisoners had the bacteria poured onto scrapes made on their penises, faces or arms, and in some cases it was injected by spinal puncture. If the subjects contracted the disease, they were given antibiotics.

“However, whether everyone was then cured is not clear,” said Susan M. Reverby, the professor at Wellesley College who brought the experiments to light in a research paper that prompted American health officials to investigate.

The revelations were made public on Friday, when Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius apologized to the government of Guatemala and the survivors and descendants of those infected. They called the experiments “clearly unethical.” “Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health,” the secretaries said in a statement. “We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices.”

In a twist to the revelation, the public health doctor who led the experiment, John C. Cutler, would later have an important role in the Tuskegee study in which black American men with syphilis were deliberately left untreated for decades. Late in his own life, Dr. Cutler continued to defend the Tuskegee work.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/02/health/research/02infect.html?_r=0

[center]~~~~~[/center]
Bad Blood: The Tuskegee Syphilis Study

For forty years, from 1932 to 1972, 399 African-American males were denied treatment for syphilis and deceived by officials of the United States Public Health Service. As part of a study conducted in Macon County, Alabama, poor sharecroppers were told they were being treated for “bad blood.”In fact, the physicians in charge of the study ensured that these men went untreated. In the 25 years since its details first were revealed, the Tuskegee Syphilis study has become a powerful symbol of racism in medicine, ethical misconduct in human research, and goverment abuse of the vulnerable.

A Troubling Legacy

The 1990's were a time of reflection upon the Tuskegee Study and its troubling implications. In February 1994, the issue was addressed in a symposium entitled, “Doing Bad in the Name of Good?: The Tuskegee Syphilis Study and Its Legacy,” convened at the Claude Moore Health Sciences Library. The discussion at the symposium led to the creation of the Tuskegee Syphilis Study Legacy Committee. In January 1996, the Committee met at Tuskegee University to explore how the government and the nation could publicly address the Tuskegee Syphilis Study and its impact.

In its final report the following May, the Committee urged President Clinton to apologize for the wrongs of the Tuskegee Study. The Committee's work bore fruit on May 16, 1997 when the President apologized on behalf of the United States government to the surviving participants of the study. These men and members of the Legacy Committee were invited to the White House to witness the apology.

Although the President's words formally closed this ignoble chapter in the history of American public health, the Study's repercussions are still felt in African-American communities and the biomedical professions. In keeping with the goals of the Legacy Committee, this exhibit aims to preserve collective memory of the Tuskegee Syphilis Study and the ongoing transformation of its legacy.

http://www.hsl.virginia.edu/historical/medical_history/bad_blood/

[center]~~~~~[/center][font size=4]
These crimes were perpetrated against helpless people this country DIDN'T EVEN HATE, or want to replace with another US puppet. These crimes against humanity were also managed using technology created long ago which has since been totally refined and superseded, of course. It would be strange to claim they are incapable of successful treachery of this level of covert skill in dealing death to their chosen "enemies." That's their chosen business, that's where their hearts lie.[/font]
 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
15. Show me scientific proof that cancer can be induced...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:08 AM
Apr 2013

I'm not saying whatever you said in your post isn't true. I know the US government has committed atrocities in the past, and I certainly condemn it all.

But it also doesn't really answer whether it's physically possible for the US to have induced Chávez's cancer. Hell, if they could REALLY do that, I think they would've already done it to other heads of state that they didn't like. Bashar Al-Assad still seems to be alive and kicking today, for example. The US has every reason to not like Kim Jong Un or Ahmadinejad (and Ali Khamenei to that extent), or even Gaddafi before he was killed, or, of course, Fidel Castro and/or his brother.

Judi Lynn

(160,555 posts)
18. It would all depend upon how easy it is to get to the president they want to destroy.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:12 AM
Apr 2013

The U.S. CIA has publicly admitted having made hundreds of attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. They 'fessed up to it years ago.

There's even a documentary out dealing with the over 600 attempts which runs on cable tv from time to time.

You wouldn't imagine things which are known only to the US government and used covertly would get a lot of public scrutiny, would you? It's unlikely, somehow.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
19. Still waiting on that scientific proof...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:20 AM
Apr 2013

And I'm sure the US has attempted to assassinate Castro somehow a number of times. I'm not denying that fact. And I'm also sure they have it as easy to get to Castro as they do to Chávez. I'm sure there are a lot of American-born Cubans who would LOVE to murder the Castros that the US would be interested on using to infiltrate the Cuban ranks. Yet, Fidel and Raúl seem to be perfectly fine, no signs of cancer whatsoever.

Look, it happens, anybody can get cancer. Hell, even the US's closest ally in South America, Juan Manuel Santos, was diagnosed with prostate cancer not long ago, and I'm QUITE sure the US doesn't want him dead. Or are you still convinced that cancer can be so easily inoculated? Where'd you get that idea from, Watchmen?

Also, ONE more thing, why did Chávez go to Cuba, of all places, to get treated for cancer? Wouldn't it have been better to go to Brazil, where Lula was successfully treated in? I'm sure cost wasn't the concern, and even if it was, the Brazilian government would've been glad to have him treated there for free. If anything, going to Cuba and dying there only helps in making their healthcare system seem worse than the supposedly wonderful healthcare that they have over there.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
27. this thread should be erased since its been proven false about attacks on clinics
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 09:56 AM
Apr 2013

and Maduro proven, once again, a liar.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
10. Video: Capriles people tried to charge the CNE again
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:46 AM
Apr 2013


More fighting in the streets. The Capriles whatevers tried to charge the CNE again, and got their asses kicked by PSUV and PCV Chavistas

At one point in the video someone tried to smash a car, but some guys with the PCV hats made them to stop

Oh yeah. The people are going to defend the gains they made.
 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
11. I don't really see them chasing anyone in those videos.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:59 AM
Apr 2013

One guy claimed that whoever they were chasing had a pistol, but that might as well just be a lie too, since the video doesn't clearly show it. He probably knew they were filming this incident, and tried to make whoever they were chasing seem like they were armed and dangerous. This footage would be much more credible if there was a clear shot of the supposed "caprilista" brandishing the gun, but all we see is just ONE guy (nobody else, just him. Apparently he's got better eyesight than everyone else. We never even listen a warning shot or anything) claiming that the "caprilista" has a pistol, scaring everyone else.

Here's an example of a video that DOES clearly show things as they are:

Judi Lynn

(160,555 posts)
14. Yeah, we all remember the trustworthy videos the opposition produces,
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:01 AM
Apr 2013

like the crap you tried to foist off on the world dealing with the "Chavista assassins" on the bridge just before your dirty coup!

That was memorable. You got your crap private media to try to shove it up everyone's nose until the whole stunt was revealed in its filthy "glory." That happened close to the time they did their spectacular news blackout to keep the people of Venezuela from knowing their President had been highjacked.

Truly classically representative of the whole opposition operation.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
16. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:10 AM
Apr 2013

"Private media"?!?! These videos are user-submitted into YouTube. They were amateurishly recorded with cellphones by bystanders.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
21. It's already been established the CNE protests were peaceful.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:32 AM
Apr 2013

So this is not helping the chavista cause at all.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
17. There was one person they burned alive They intended to kill her by burning her. They set her ablaze
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:12 AM
Apr 2013

At minute 9:48




...

LUISA ORTEGA: (translated) Seven Venezuelans have been killed. Among them was a police worker with the Táchira state police. And so far we have confirmed 61 injured people. And I ask that you hear this, that among the injured, there was one person that they burned alive. They intended to kill her by burning her. They set her ablaze. Take note of the level of violent aggression that this particular group of people have at this moment.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Venezuela’s chief prosecutor. Alex Main, can you talk about where the country goes from here? We also mustn’t forget that it was the U.S. that endorsed the coup in 2002—what was that, 11 years ago—that threw out Hugo Chávez for a few days before he made it back in, unlike other leaders, like President Aristide in Haiti, who didn’t make it back to the country, or Zelaya in Honduras. But what happens now? That just shows the significance of U.S.’s position in these countries.

ALEX MAIN: Well, I mean, it is absolutely critical, this point about the U.S.’s position on the internal affairs of Venezuela, because what the U.S. is doing is really essentially emboldening the opposition. Having this sort of support, to them, really means the world. And I think until the U.S. sort of backs off and, you know, follows the rest of the world, really, in recognizing the results of these elections, the opposition is going to continue with its current tactics.

So, yeah, certainly on Monday night, there were scenes of chaos. What was particularly ironic, given that the Capriles campaign has said that it is all about defending Venezuela’s social programs under Chávez, is that there were many of the government health clinics that were attacked, also many of the subsidized food stores that were attacked by opposition supporters. And along with those, also PSUV headquarters, various government officials’ residences were attacked. So, we’re really seeing scenes reminiscent of, again, the time between 2002, 2004. In 2004, you had what was called the guarimbas, supposedly peaceful protests, and Capriles keeps insisting that he’s been calling on peaceful protests when he tells people to take to the streets. In fact, that was the case also back in 2004, and those peaceful protests grew very violent. They really paralyzed most of Caracas for a few days and led to a few deaths, as well. Capriles is perfectly aware that there are violent elements within the opposition and that when he tells everyone to take to the streets to, quote-unquote, "defend their votes," this is the likely outcome.

So, really, I think, you know, the U.S. is being quite irresponsible. They’re promoting a civil conflict in the country. Fortunately, the opposition seems to be backing down at the moment. Last night was much calmer. But until the State Department has a clear position on the situation, we’re likely to see this continue.

AMY GOODMAN: Alex Main, we want to thank you for being with us, senior associate for international policy at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, served as an election monitor in Venezuela. He is speaking to us from Caracas.

Creative Commons License The original content of this program is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/13589
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/4/17/venezuela_accuses_us_of_plotting_coup

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
20. armed attack on the residence of West PDVSA CEO, Ricardo Coronado. Workers to protect/defend
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:30 AM
Apr 2013


Workers of the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) in the state of Zulia rejected the violence that occurred in different states of the country, where there have been fatalities and significant property damage.

The oil workers also repudiated the recent armed attack on the residence of West PDVSA CEO, Ricardo Coronado, that occurred in the early hours of Wednesday in the city of Maracaibo.

While we're in the business, there is no oligarchy that can take over the oil resources that are allocated to the entire population, they said.

In addition to this, more than eight thousand workers of the Caracas Metro announced they are active to prevent violent actions against the institution by radical sectors of the Venezuelan right.

On Monday and Tuesday, opposition groups attacked Metrobus units, which led to the suspension of operations on several routes, a situation that affected more than 150 000 users.

...

http://www.ciudadccs.info/?p=412124
 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
25. This had been planed for a long time. Perhaps since Chávez got sick...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:39 AM
Apr 2013

The "progressive" "social democrat" is trying to throw the country in a civil war, while receiving the positive coverage from the vultures in the press always willing to support a proxy war anywhere in the globe.

"We just don’t like those people coming up here where we live"

Get used. Or move.

Thanks for sharing this. It's great.

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