Wait, yes they do, as all govt. do.

Look that up in relation to all of Latin America. It's been used on Latin America to overthrow nearly every democratically-elected govt. And that's what's going on now. It's a very effective tool to bring about "regime change," and the U.S. has been behind every coup there.

the spiraling crime rate, the inability of the govt. to reign in the violence and the worsening economic conditions.

If Pres. Maduro doesn't start instituting real reforms, ie: economic and security reforms, he may very well be voted out in the next elections, hopefully to be replaced with a true reformer from within his party.

That's the same BS destabilization as always. It's not new, it's the same old, and it will be used again in the future to try to topple other democratically-elected governments. But oh yes, they'll pretend the "protestors" are the victims. It always happens that way. Nothing new under the sun.

I know the truth is hard to accept.
BTW, I am not calling for a coup, I'm saying that unless the govt. cleans up it's act, it will be defeated in the next elections.

That in itself is odd and suspect. What your real story is, I don't know, but I will tell you this: you're consistently lying about Venezuela.

Is that against the rules? And someone with a closed mind such as yourself isn't worth arguing with and on that I bid you adieu.

Thank you for posting the link.

government. What right does a Democratic Government have in order to stop it? It's not as if this is the first time the same main characters were involved in previous failed coup attempts. So what is your advice to Democratically Elected Governments, here in the US also, when it is clear that street 'protesters' are being led by former criminals who have been consistently involved in trying to topple a legitimate Government?

Should every Democratically Elected Government cave to such coup attempts every time a country has some economic problems? How about here, millions of Americans have been plunged into poverty over the past decade. Should we be out in the streets trying to topple THIS government, and if that were to happen, what should, or WOULD this government do?

Just curious, you appear to be supporting the toppling of a legitimate government due to economic issues, which btw, are worse in many parts of Europe, and in parts of this country. I want to know if there are actually people on this forum who are supportive of the violent removal of legitimate governments for those reasons.

I have said over and over that I don't support a coup, if that's what really happening, I support fair and transparent elections and what the people of Venezuela want.

of these demonstrations have repeatedly been a part of attempted coups in Venezuela. Perhaps you were not aware.

Considering the 'leadership' of the protests therefore, most longtime observers of this apparent repeat of former attempted coups, are more than skeptical of the claims being made.

Eg, if this had happened in the past HERE, those 'leaders' would still be in jail. It is considered treason to attempt to topple a democratically elected government.

Clearly they are causing unrest, as claimed by the Government, leading to deadly confrontations with the government.

Here in the US eg, peaceful protesters were arrested, beaten, tear-gassed and some nearly killed simply for protesting POLICIES. There was NO attempt or even thought of toppling the government. So you can only imagine of any of those protesters had a past of criminal activity regarding attempted coups, what might have happened.

So my question to those supporting these criminals in Venezuela is, and I believe it is a legitimate question 'would you support this here in the US knowing the past criminal intent of the leaders of these protests' and if not' then why on earth would you be supporting it in Venezuela'?

Note, I am stating what your opinion is, I am ASKING you what your opinion is.

like the ones we have in the US?

Venezuela's election process has been called "the best in the world" by Former President Carter.

Rather than worry about Venezuela, maybe you might start looking at our election process.

April 14, 2013 presidential election.

https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-070313.html

There is not agreement, however, about the quality of the voting conditions and whether every registered voter is able to vote one time, and only one time. In addition, the report finds a series of inequities in campaign conditions in terms of both access to financial resources and access to the media, which diminish the competitiveness of elections, particularly in a legal framework that permits indefinite reelection of public officials.

What makes you think I'm not?
I can multi task you know.

From another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826396#post3

So tell me how I'm supporting the toppling of a legitimately elected government?

for Madura to go would be after an election. Unless the people elect someone else, and they have had that opportunity already, he is the legitimate leader of Venezuela right now.

That does not seem to be the goal of the 'protesters'. They are attempting what has been attempted many times in Venezuela, led by some of the same Right Wing criminals who are very fortunate not to be in jail for their crimes against the legitimate government, they are once again attempting to topple this government.

So, imo, regardless of the economic situation there, no worse than in many other parts of the civilized world, they have delegitimized themselves once again and anyone who is supporting them knowing their history, is supporting a return to the old dictatorship days in Latin America where Western Backed Right Wing 'protesters' toppled Democratic Leaders, leading to decades of cruel oppression of the people there, the theft of their resources by Western Imperialists and the installation of Dictators like Pinochet.

Unless the protesters reject these 'leaders' their 'cause' is reminiscent of those past coup d'etats which left Latin America in turmoil with 80% of its population in severe poverty and illiteracy.

There is no way any Democrat who is familiar with our OWN role in the tragic history of Latin America could possibly be supportive of a return to those dark days.

that if the people of Venezuela aren't happy with President Maduro, they'll vote him out of office and vote in who they want.

The only thing I support is the right of the people of Venezuela to vote for who they want to lead them.

I was given to believe that they're calling for basic goods, decrying inflation, and demanding freedom to protest without being beaten. Maybe the leaders are calling for a coup?

in attempted, though thankfully, failed coups in Venezuela. So long as these protests are led by these discredited Right Wing characters, yes, there is evidence that this is the goal, just as it was in Libya, in Syria and in the Ukraine despite all the asurances that 'we are not trying to topple the government'.

If they want legitimacy, they chose the wrong 'leaders'.

To DU'ers, if you don't know about the filthy, evil Venezuelan oligarchy-supported piece of #### who created "El Caracazo" massacre, please do take the time to to a check on it.

Anyone who WOULDN'T want to turn that dirty monster out of office would have to be one of the oligarchs who continued to adore him, even after he was arrested, imprisoned, impeached, and moved to New York and Miami, from where he, in his dirry little nasty voice continued to howl for someone to shoot Hugo Chavez down in the street like a dog.

Please do look up the reason why that government was too destructive, read about El Caracazo, and realize the pure contempt the oligarchy had for the working class.

Everyone's got your number, right-wingers. You're fooling no one.

people stopped. Did you support Bush's and his father's and Reagan's policies of coups as a solution to rid Latin American nations of leaders who refused to hand over their countries' resources to Western Imperialist Campaigns? It's a long, cruel and tragic history of coups and torture and imprisonment. Thankfully finally, those days appear to be over, although the old coupers just can't seem to accept independent Latin American countries who claimed back control over their own resources.

Did you forget the entire history of Western interference in Latin America or did you just never know about it?

so many coup attempts-hard to keep them all straight

my question? Do you remember our history here in the US of supporting every coup against any Latin American leader who would not sell out their countries' resources to Western Imperial cartels, impoverishing the rightful owners of those resources?

Are denying our history of backing such coups and helping to install Dictators, like Pinochet far more 'friendly' to selling out the people they were oppressing?

I know it's not a proud history, but there is no reason I can think of NOT to talk about it. Most importantly so that it never happens again, as is being attempted right now.

but a coup is a coup is a coup

Chavez, or anyone else for that matter, trying to overthrow a government is just as bad as the US or the Russians or the Cubans or the Chinese, etc. overthrowing a government

happening, a return to the old past where Western Imperialists are funding Right Wing 'leaders' to try to destabilize a Latin American nation. I can't imagine why anyone who is a Democrat would be trying to excuse this for any reason.

Chavez is dead, he paid a price for what he did, but at least his motives were different. He wasn't financed by Western Imperialists who wanted to rob Venezuela of its resources. He admitted it was the wrong way to stop them, and then to his great credit used the Democratic Process to accomplish the goals he learned could not be accomplished THEIR WAY.

I'm surprised you do not give him great credit for his evolvement to what the country needed, a democratically elected government that was determined to prevent any more Western Imperialist robbery of Venezuela's resources. I'm surprised they you speak of that period as if it was in any way similar to a bunch of Right Wing wealthy thugs working for outside forces to try to drag Venezuela back to those dark, brutal days. His goals were the opposite, he mistakenly at first, chose the wrong methods.

Like Mandella who also was not opposed to violence or breaking the law to try to end apartheid in his country. Motive is 90% of how you decide whether people were bad or potentially good, good people can and do make mistakes, as did Mandella and Chavez, but there is no questioning their motives unless you support the old Right Wing Oligarchs and their Western backers.

out of the incubators, anyway?

Thank you, Mika, for finding this epic collection, and we know it's only a representative sampling, too! There wouldn't be space for all of them.

They need to be outed. Too bad our corporate media is not EVER going to be the "jounalists" who will do the exposure of profound deceit, and contempt for the human race this illustrates.

Judi posted a photoshopped picture too.

It happens.

I still can't find pictures from todays march in Caracas where Capriles gave his speech. It's very possible that it's all a charade. But until I find the photos I am not going to fall for others' attempts at propaganda. The worst part are chavistas / opposition posting bullshit on social media, changing the size, ratio, or resolution of their respective pictures to push some narrative. It is mind numbing how both sides like to play these games. All it takes is one asshole making up something and complete falsehoods get tweeted and retweeted.

I thought some pictures were out dated but they are indeed from today.

You're free to reverse-image search them, but I think they're all legit.

http://runrun.es/tech/104155/las-mejores-imagenes-de-hoy-22-de-febrero-protesta-represion-y-creatividad.html

The second-to-last picture is from @edwin_trompiz, who's actually one of my best friends, and lives in that building where he took that photo from. I've been there myself quite a few times.

We actually fact check.

But slowly more and more people are starting to realize that, and they're actually starting to share video footage more than photos, since some of these can fall on deaf ears.

But hey, at least we have some material to show, unlike certain people here who prefer to share garbage written in propaganda sites.

I've still also yet to see footage of the gatherings that Maduro has called for, at least from the aerial perspective that we've gotten from opposition protests, which show numbers much more clearly. Maybe they're too embarrassed by the turnout to show?

What did they do, put the camera on a model helicopter or something?

That is one MASSIVE crowd...!

I know I could never imagine so many fascists would ever congregate at that level.

Rodriguez Torres is Cabello's man. This means Montoya was the real target and this is all an intrachavista gang fight.

Your attempts at blaming Maduro for the violence are falling flat.

The propaganda machine is trying hard to make it seem like the students and any anti-government protesters are the ones causing the violence, especially that tarifada Eva Golinger, and so far, all evidence points to the contrary.

I don't think anyone is making the claim that the entire opposition is violent. The real propaganda machine (ie. corporate news) is trying hard to make it seem like all the violence is coming from Maduro's side, when that is clearly not the case.

in Venezuela. That delegitimatizes any claims that a coup is not the goal of these protests. Period.

the legitimate Venezuelan government? We do.

If you want to try to convince people that the propaganda against Venezuela has any merit, you will not be able to do so here. Why? Because DUers are very informed.

But go ahead, I am always interested in what we are paying for with our tax dollars. Same old same old, I see. You'd think, since we spend so much money on all this anti Chavez, anti Venezuelan democracy, they would come up with some new stuff.

Apparently their attitude is that it seems to work since the same right-wingers always great each time the old material is re-introduced as if it is the first time they've ever said a word about it.

All the lies get recirculated regarding EVERY democratic the USG wants to destroy. Same order, too, undoubtedly. Tailor made for each country, but there are some overlapping lies they try to use, and that occurs when they can, as they did in Chile, as Richard M. Nixon told his CIA head, Richard Helms to do, "make the economy scream" so the people get so desperate they no longer can support the president they voted into office because their situations get so painful with SHORTAGES, scarcity, and the resulting imbalances that evolve once the special "problems" have been introjected, with help from the local paid talent.

Our covert actions have always used US taxdollars (leaving no fingerprints, as Richard M. Nixon insisted) to plant bogus news stories in the media, even acknowledged as late in the game as Bush Vice-President Richard Cheney's public statements, and anyone who's conscious, not drunk, passed out, or stupid, has known this for a very long time.

You're damned right: DU'ers ARE informed. That's who right-wing trolls who haul that right-wing gibberish in here to try to disrupt conversations are conspicuous the moment they arrive.

I was wondering if you are feeling nervous as Maduro's regime hits the skids. Are the Cubans considering some sort of plan b?

It seems that the Castros don't have much faith in Maburro maintaining control of the country either. Looks like the chavista kleptocracy is coming to an end soon.

Just wondering.

But do they support a coup? They all deny it, and it's just... coincidence... that they support the coup-masters, the extreme right wing bastards who turn Latin America into a death zone over and over, every time there's a hint of left-wing victory. But no, *never* would they come out and say that they support a coup. I mean, that would be wrong!

They're just trolling, sabrina. They haven't anything else to contribute except for their trolling.

Venezuela. I remember how supportive Democrats were of Chavez and how well informed they were about the situation there. Suddenly we have this influx of people supporting the Right Wing oligarchs there. Perhaps they wandered into the wrong forum.

I remember when Bush got caught backing the coup attempt in 2002 and how jubilant Democrats were when it was foiled by the people of Venezuela.

I'm also stunned by the nasty personal attacks by some of these coup supporters here, something that would never have been tolerated here in the past.

I'm beginning to wonder if I am the one on the wrong forum. I sure would never have joined any forum that contained some of the right wing stuff I'm seeing here lately. Maybe it's time to start looking again, as I did back then, for places where Democratic principles, where support for countries striving to get out from under Right Wing dictatorships, is prominent. I don't want to waste time dealing with Right Wing supporters when there is so much work to be done to try to help those who are working to support those who are fighting against a return to the old Right Wing Western Backed dictatorships in Latin America.

but that's not true at all, what we're supporting is the people to elect whom they want without outside interference, which there is no evidence of at this point.

the history of US interventions in Latin America. just as the rest of us had to do in order to know what the f### has happened there.

Once anyone knows this history, and sees it replaying again, again, again, again, that man/woman understands exactly why the people who matter in the Americas are going to try to keep it from happening again with every fiber of their bodies.

You embarrass yourself attempting to override informed people here with your pro-coup gibberish.

I have never been pro coup and if you had even taken the time to read my posts, you would know this.

You embarrass your self by attempting to label me something I'm not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826215#post28

Not that you care one iota about the situation on the ground in Venezuela.

'protests'. We have seen this movie before, during one of the last attempted coups in Venezuela where those Right Wing 'leaders', yes some of the same ones now 'leading' this supposed protest, demonstrated in a similar fashion trying to stop the flow of oil and thereby topple the government. Chavez remained strong against them but they cause huge damage to an emerging democracy.

If the people want changes, they can do so during the next election.

We were told, by these same Right Wing 'leaders' that they were only doing what the people wanted during the LAST election. Well apparently that wasn't true then as they were DEFEATED at the ballot box. They have refused to accept the will of the people, they are criminals, and so long as these 'protests' are led by criminals, they have ZERO credibility, none. To support them is to oppose democracy in Venezuela, as it was in 2002 and later when they tried again, and then again before the last election and NOW.

And that's what I've been saying, if the people are unhappy with the present govt., they'll vote them out and vote in a govt. more to their liking.

already happened before the last election. THEY were defeated when elections took place. So that SHOULD have settled the matter until the next election, but NO. Even before the inauguration they were stirring up trouble, refusing to accept the will of the people.

Watching this is like deja vu, same people, same claims, why? Because they KNOW they cannot win the legitimate way so they will keep trying to do it the old fashioned way, by never stopping, by stirring up anger which is not hard to do with enough people to make it look like a majority, as they did before. But they KNOW what happened last time and they are not willing to take a chance on elections.

Falling for their garbage is supporting what will be an eventual coup, just like Honduras, Libya, the Ukraine and from Latin America's past, nearly every country in that region of the world. And the end result will be a return to puppet governments whose strings are being pulled by Western Corporations, just as they were in the past. Puppets like Pinochet et al.

ANYONE, and I am willing to believe you are one of those who really wants to see Democracy succeed in Venezuela and every other Latin American country, will NOT support these thugs who are all too familiar in the history of Latin America.

And yes, they are backed by Western powers whose only interest in that country is its oil. Definitely NOT its people.

and their right to have a free and robust democracy, but I was just accused of being pro coup by Judi Lynn, which is an outright lie.

Right Wingers who have been involved in several attempted coups and are now back, trying again. I support the people of Venezuela's right to a free democracy which they HAVE. So I'm not sure why you are worried about them. They have the same system we have. These 'protesters' are attempting to UNDERMINE that democracy.

I can't say I blame anyone for mistaking someone who is supporting these latest attempts to destabilize Venezuela's democracy, for a supporter of a coup, who has been watching this now for so long.

I am glad that you are not one of those here on this forum who support these Right Wing 'leaders' despite being fully aware of their history of coup attempts.

Glad, seriously, that you support Democracy in Venezuela and not the former coup criminals who are trying for the umpteenth time to try once again to undermine that democracy.

Suppose that I were a 100% gung-ho promoter of Glenn Beck's rallies, and the tea-party rallies, and that I parroted the Glenn Beck tea-party American Enterprise Institute Koch Bros. song and dance 100%, sparing no opportunity to use those memes to slam the left. And suppose, while doing this, I were to post it all on a left-wing message board, claiming to be such a left-wing leftist that my criticisms are only intended to advance left-wing causes -- since as my Beckish memes explain, left-wing causes need the improvement.

Well, that's an analogy for this particular poster's claim to be an ultra-chavista (really), an ultra-bolivarian (really), whose complaint is that Maduro doesn't live up to her high standards of leftist bolivarian chavismo.... Yes indeedy, right out of the wet-dreams of the Wall St. Journal. Really.

You wouldn't know telling it like it is if it hit you in the head, but, ok, whatever.
Have a good evening.

'Beck/Faux' 'criticisms' of OWS under the pretext of 'concern' that the movement might not be 'effective' enough, despite the HUGE success of OWS, who finally actually got the attention of elected officials and could not be dismissed as just 'focus groups'. We were NOT fooled by their right wing 'concerns'. Now we see them, ironically, supporting these Right Wing protests in Venezuela.

As someone said to ME, 'very telling'. Or to state it plainly, not at all surprising since we Liberal Dems are experts at spotting these deceivers and had them pegged during the OWS protests without a doubt in the world. It's just nice to see one's opinions actually confirmed.

Good post, I couldn't agree with you more.

...you can laugh at those authoritarians who supported him.

Of course, once the democratic process is fulfilled, they'll blame something else, naturally.

Worse, there's an awful merging of these tea-hadist trolls with a Dem centrist/third-way component. Or rather, a blending in.

Don't get me wrong, I don't categorize the Dem "third-way" or "DLC" component with these hard-right tea-hadist contra type trolls who are so obvious and so obnoxious in their trolling. I don't identify the two. I don't think I need to. But it can be argued that the third-way DLC movement opened the door to them, to this extreme right, while shutting the door to the left.

In any event, jeez louise but if these stark Central/South/Latin American events, ongoing for decades with help from institutions like the School of the Americas and the CIA, don't distinguish the interests of right-wing monsters from those of the population of common people, then what does?

If you find a good discussion forum, please PM me.
Thank you.

Those who reject him are the progressives here.

No matter how homophobic he is.

Oh right, I didn't.

Expressing solidarity with student protesters is all I have done.

While the so called progressives slander them as right wing fascists.

That is calling for the overthrow of a democratically elected president doesn't sound very progressive to me.

They aren't being talked to. The only way we know what they want is from the slogans they paint on the streets. They're against the violence in the country that has killed some 150,000 Venezuelans or thereabouts. They're against the crime that they're subject to every day.

Lopez, Capriles, they came out with their own slogans.

The best indicator that they don't support Lopez or Capriles is that Lopez and Capriles would be for privatizing the universities. Why would students who get free university education (as well as room and board and food), protest for privatization of their schools? It makes no sense.

At this point the protest has become as much a protest against the police repression as it is against the crime.

Where have you seen that?

IMHO since the late 1950's any political party talking that language would automatically exclude itself from the political spectrum of "serious parties" in Venezuela

You and that other poster appear to only show up whenever shit hits the fan.

The rest of us post here regularly and discuss issues on a substantiative level.

There's no way the student protests in Venezuela is controlled by some "phantom" CIA manipulation. They act under their own accord. To demean them as falling for some right wing manipulation is to remove their agency completely.

Here's the fucked up part. If they continually get de-humanized as a peoples, they will cling to whoever addresses them as humans, and if it is the right wing in Venezuela, you will have in part contributed to that.

Maduro needs to live up to his promise of dialog, and stop sending jets to flyover randomly and tanks or APCs to send the message of terror.

You and the poster you are responding to have not been contributor to this group since DU3. Stop pretending you are part of this group. It is an insult to those of us who know Spanish and who are educated on the culture.

great progressive DU'ers when they post here.

Your cluster which does "post here regularly and discuss issues on a substantiative level" has its own easy-to-recognize group attitude, and frankly, it's fantastic to see progressives like delrem here. Out of this world. Couldn't be more welcome.

As you know, your group has picked up an energetic member who's here to bounce off the walls until exhaustion.

Progressives love to see living, breathing, intelligent, decent human beings showing up to communicate here.

You don't get to tell them to f### off. That's simply not your place, either.

Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.

beloved Brazilian friend, ocpagu, when she posted in the General Discussion forum, and when she snapped at one of you, run to alert the moderators, shrieking you'd been mortally offended, and got her banned from this website.

We miss the hell out of her. What a fucking shame.

She was worth more than a billion right-wingers.

I didn't know ocpagu was even banned. Looks like ocpagu got banned for being an apologist for Russia's anti-gay law.

What is it with defenders of Latin American authoritarians and their love for Russia?

Seems someone is misrepresenting what really happened.
Not suprising really.

Nope, everyone of value who knew ocpagu is quite well aware some sadistic assholes ganged up on her.

She had been doing those clowns the biggest favor by even paying attention to them at ALL. They are certainly no one anyone respects.

Why would I want her banned from DU? So I could listen to the echo chamber?

Stupid. I legitimately didn't know she was banned.

They know that unresolved racism and hatred need a focus, so they swarm to bother people who couldn't be more different from them. Sad.

[center][/center]

also love screwing with those who want economic justice, so they come here to gloat when things go their fascist way.

It's nothing to celebrate when the morally challenged get the upper hand, over the decent, working class people of the world.

And that is not acceptable.

E.g. the right-wing has to (and does!) profess ignorance of the existence of the School of the Americas and how the alumni of that institution has enacted everything from coup leadership to the nitty-gritty of right-wing death squads targeting everyone on the left, human rights workers, humanitarian religious activists, left-wing political activists, all of the way down to targets killed for no reason other than that they were poor, desperate, and in the way of the right-wing juggernaut.

To say I detest the entire bunch of them is so much an understatement, so entirely inadequate...
Believe it, there are no words.

In this case the right-wing has to pretend that the 2014 coup attempts of their leaders aren't associated with the 2002 coup attempts of the identical leaders. The right-wing has to pretend that their money-backers don't exist, the 1% doesn't exist and isn't in play. The right-wing is forced to deny the entire history of their astroturf leadership, of the political direction that their astroturf leadership defines. The right-wing is so totally embedded in falsification, that reality itself is their enemy.

there is absolutely no common ground.

We speak two different ethical languages, come from entirely different worlds.

There's nothing we can learn from them other than how far they will go to try to "win" against sane, decent people of conscience.

Your comments were well considered, and meaningful.

Fortunately social media has made exposing the lies a bit easier.

and careful tutoring from our own country's rich experience in perception molding.

And , in the video, you can see Leopoldo Lopez when he turned himself in. No a "religious parade."

So, who is manipulating the truth?

Your link leads to individual twitter accounts and to a Spanish newspaper. Not one politician, not even a Venezuelan media...

How can you possibly talk about "Venezuela opposition"?!?

You take any political issue nowadays and you'll find the same kind of disinformation in twitter and facebook

I say the chavista made those twitter accounts themselves in order to make the opposition look bad!

I wonder how much Koch money is being funneled to their efforts.

That's wholesale Ukraine style oppression right there.

who envision themselves the future leaders of their countries once Big Brother helps them overthrow the President the people want, after things just seem to roll their way after the same tricks makes the next "economy scream" again.

The whole world has known all along what has happened, while U.S. Americans seem to just be waking up, after the truth started leaking out, through various avenues, like fantastic wikileaks, and finally declassified documents, and even then only among those who can read without moving their lips.