Here, read this:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/venezuela-president-maduro-faces-economic-distress-and-protests-a-955820.html

what's believable. Good try though.

It's not a "good try," it's fact. All you have to do is look at the people who are running that show--before examining the propagandized content, even-- and it becomes quite apparent to anyone without an agenda what the deal is.

You pro-opposition people say this no matter what the source is.

Desperation. Why not attack the content - but that's exactly what's done here every single time a scary fact comes out that supports what the Venezuelan people have worked and voted for, time after time.

It's thirty different parties, each with their OWN agendas. I don't support them, I support the people of VZ who have a right to live without crime, without rampant inflation, and with basic food and stuff like toilet paper and dishwashing liquid.

Polly7, you'd better stop with the snarky zzzzzzzzzzz and wake the hell up. Even the POOR are in the streets protesting--that means Maduro has problems that are serious and reach deeply into the society. Why do you think that regional actors like Brazil's former president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and Uruguay's Jose Mujica are trying to talk sense to Maduro and involving themselves in discussions with other governments about what might happen if Maduro falls? For benign amusement? Hell no. They're getting involved because they, too, think he's fucking up.

But hey, pay no attention and pretend everything's hunky-dory.

You're actually telling me what tone to use when I post to 'snarky' wannabe-censorship?

I don't fucking think so!!!!!

Carry on with someone who's a bit more easily bullied.

And ........... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is what I think whenever I read your pro-opposition/coup-supporting/anti-democracy posts, sorry, I just can't help it.

Keep ignoring da Silva and Mujica, too, while you're at it.

Disorganized responses with flailing accusations.

If you're talking about the Chavez-Farc-coke connection article, yeah, I did.

history of these Right Wing thugs over the past decade in Venezuela? Do you deny that the Bush war criminals were behind the attempted coup of the legitimately elected government in Venezuela in 2002 when the Venezuelan people stopped it, but not before Condy had exposed themselves? I rmember her rhetoric about 'democratic will of the people' before she realize the coup had been overturned by those very PEOPLE. Lol, it was a beautiful thing to see her scramble after showing their hand.

If these protesters want to be viewed as legitimate, they need to remove themselves from these right wing thugs with a history of attempting to destabilize their democratic process. And NO Democrat worth the title, can possibly support the destabilization of a legitimate democratic government.

Did you support OWS btw, I don't recall. I do remember, and perhaps you were not among them, the total horror expressed by those who claimed OWS had 'no goals' lol, when a few windows were broken by a group NOT even affiliated with the movement.

I don't think you were supportive of those broken window tactics, but I could be wrong.

That outlet IS a propaganda arm. It is not a news outlet, it is not fair-and-balanced, it is the Fox News of the Maduro regime, touting the party line quite mindlessly.

So I could say "And there it is, a mindless ideologue, denying the obvious, right on cue..." because that is what you are doing.

We aren't talking about Bush, we aren't talking about "Condy" (shows how much you paid attention) and we aren't talking about OWS. We're talking about a situation in VZ right now, and you'll do anything and everything to avoid getting down to brass tacks.

Venezuelananalysis IS a propaganda arm. That is not even in dispute. The fact that you're so hot-breathed in your defense of it just proves the point.

Where's your demand for Maduro to remove himself from those roving bands of motorcycle thugs killing people? How about civil guards beating the shit out of women using helmets?

Yeah....didn't think so. The opposition isn't killing people in the street--it's Maduro's people. The number is 13 and counting.

talking about Condy and the exposure, and I remember being called a 'conspiracy theorist' by right wingers back then until they couldn't deny the US role in that attempted coup. History is relevant, especially when some of the same 'leaders' are involved in THIS attempted coup.

Where was your demand for the US to stop beating, nearly to death, OWS protesters, two of them Iraq Veterans for simply exercising the right they were told they had been fighting for?

OWS will be out again protesting, I'm sure they will be beaten and jailed and nearly killed again, charged with terror etc. I will be looking for your outrage when it happens.

What do you think this government would do if coup d'etaters, known to have tried before, took to the streets to bring down this government? I only have to look at what was done to OWS, a totally peaceful movement to answer that question.

and stop accusing people, going far afield to avoid addressing THIS topic, and getting nasty and personal.

It's unbecoming. It's also pretty obvious, what you're doing to avoid a substantive discussion of the issues. Here, start by figuring out what the damn problem is in VZ:

states strategic to US 'interests' in their positions regarding peaceful protests here in the US and the violent reaction to them by our own government agencies.

If these are inconvenient or 'nasty' questions, then I can't help that. I don't it consider it 'nasty' to ask questions so I know where people stand. It makes it easier to determine whether I should give any credence to their opinions.

Eg, if they did not object to the brutal treatment of OWS right here in our own country, then I have to wonder why they suddenly object to a foreign government reacting to, NOT a peaceful movement but an attempt to destabilize a legitimate government. That doesn't make sense to me.

These questions are extremely relevant when someone sets themselves up as a credible observer of these events. Eg, to make it more clear, if someone does not condemn government brutality against PEACEFUL protesters in their own country, why on earth would they see fit to object to it against a violent uprising, led by known Right Wing 'leaders' formerly involved in attempted coups somewhere else?

I hope you don't see this as 'nasty' but I can't think of any other way to explain why we need to have these questions answered.

the discussion isn't going your way.

This thread is about what's happening in VZ now--not Bush, or Condie, or OWS.

If you want to talk about those other things, go on and start a thread about them, instead of derailing this one.

You don't have standing to demand "purity tests" from anyone, particularly when you're coming up short on basic facts about what is happening on the ground in Caracas and elsewhere this very week.

I will look forward to your comments on our own peaceful protests in the future and the expected brutal response to them.

As for a discussion 'not going my way', really? It's a discussion, isn't it? It's up to US to know the FACTS in order to determine who is right and who is wrong. That's all we ask for as Democrats, isn't it?

Interesting projection though, I'm not Venezuelan so I need to read credible sources in order to determine the facts. Generally for obvious reasons, I dismiss Right Wing sources, we've certainly had enough experience with Latin America's past to know that Right Wing Sources are rarely credible.

But to suggest that people are here to make things go 'their way'. What way would that be? I'm for democracy and opposed to Right Wing coups, especially in Latin America where we have so much sad history of our own Government supporting Dictators like Pinochet eg. Hopefully Latin America has established stronger resistance to such nefarious 'policies' and will be able to end any hopes on the part of the old, wealthy Right Wing oligarchs of a return to those dark days.

You don't have a clue as to what's going on there in recent weeks, and it shows in every sentence you type.

Now you're bringing up Pinochet, who has nothing to do with Maduro's woes, either.

Stick to the topic, or don't bother. This is about the people of VZ, even if you refuse to acknowledge that. How dare those wealthy poor people and students want a safe environment and food in the supermarkets! The nerve of them!

'opposition' were involved in those illegal, treasonous attempts. Sorry to bring up inconvenient facts.

Not being Venezuelan hasn't prevented you from offering your support for these 'protesters'. Excuse me if I remember them from previous coup attempts and then remember Latin America's relatively recent tragic history and OUR support for dictators like Pinochet. Right up to when he was protected from extradition not so long ago for his crimes against his own people.

Hmmm, I didn't know one had to be Iraqi, Venezuelan, Syrian, Honduran (remember that recent coup btw) in order to NOT support another coup in Latin America. If I supported it would it be okay that I am not Venezuelan? Just wondering.

I'm starting to wonder if you realize that Pinochet wasn't VENEZUELAN? Why not compare Rob Ford to Bill DiBlasio? After all, they're both mayors, on the same continent....

Stop changing the damned subject--if you want to be taken seriously. Address the serious issues that exist in VZ. Stop pretending it's all "nothing to see here, move along." It's not. It's BAD. It is serious. These people are pissed off.



You want "The Guardian?" That meets your standard?

Here ya go:

what I know about Pinochet when all you had to do was read my comments where I made clear I was pointing out US history in Latin America, including the backing of Dictators like Pinochet. Point to me where your assumption that he was, imo, Venezuelan?? It's always good when you make an accusation to back it up with FACTS.


Thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat that info for anyone who wasn't aware of our shameful, relatively recent history there which we are apparently attempting to repeat.

That is why former Chavez supporters are in the streets. They've had enough. They want food, security, lights, and access to money. They don't want murders every hour, inflation that is INSANE, and corrupt officials.

You act like that's unreasonable. That, in itself, is telling. You'd rather prop up that crazy thief who tells people to eat less to combat food shortages, than support the people of Venezuela who should have the right to live without fear.

trying to find out ... thanks finally for an answer. Unless of course you think the Venezuelan people are inferior to the American people and should be expected to overturn legitimate governments when they feel their are 'incompetent'. Which is of course about 'ideology', assuming that is your opinion of course.

I respect all people who fought, as this country did, to establish Democratic governments and do not expect to see them resort to third world dictatorship policies any more than I would here. We are all equal, are we not, entitled to the same 'privileges'. Still I'm not clear on YOUR opinion on this.

Now, stop making up falsehoods about what I believe. That's rude and disruptive to state untruths about a DUer, you know.

And you're the one who apparently--by your words--think the people of Venezuela are inferior. Why do you think they can't handle a succession following a resignation, like any other country? Why do you think they can't manage to hold an election? Why do you think there would "have" to be violent overthrow (something I suspect gives you a secret thrill, the way you keep going on about it)?

Do you even know who Rangel is?

I think you don't.

So far as I know he has no intention of resigning. I would think the only way that might happen would be IF the Right Wing coupers, and they have ADMITTED TO NOT WANTING TO 'WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT ELECTION', that was from YOUR OWN LINK, were to be successful in tearing down the government.

Don't give me your whining. You have attacked me personally over and over again in this thread. I have asked you questions, I don't care about your personal attacks frankly, but I sure haven't whined about them.

Stick to the issues. You have just now stated support for the 'resignation' of an elected president in Venezuela. Why would you assume this to be a possibility at all? Other than as a result of a violent coup. Now show me where this doesn't show support for such a coup.

Try reading again. I did not say that. You just made a false assertion.

I give you the truth, and you don't like it. That's not an attack, that's fact-based conversation. Get over it. And stop whining. And try READING. For a change.

You keep trying to put words in my mouth. Everytime you do, I will call you out. Get over it and get used to it. Or better still, start acknowledging the facts on the ground, instead of seeing everything through the prism of an heroic Maduro (who is actually a corrupt and incompetent thief).

I "stated support" for the people of VZ. Nothing more. Maduro has two choices--as I said. He can get correct, or he can go. That's what the PEOPLE want, not me. If you paid attention, you'd know that.

Stop playing games--I will keep calling you out if you do.

so we don't have to be reduced to kindergarten level type discussion? Thanks.

Back to the issues. You support the Vz people. That's a pretty nebulous statement. You don't say you support their right to elections. You support the guy who says he can't 'wait for elections' , see your own link in the first comment, the one you accused me of not reading.

So again, does supporting someone who has stated his intentions to topple an elected government, translate to supporting the Vz people, and are you claiming that they, the Vz people want to go back to the old days of Latin American Right Wing coups and then more coups, rather than a democritic society.

Look, these are not difficult questions. Ask me the same questions and I will answer them directly. But you appear to be supporting a coup, a 'resignation' which you stated as if it were a given and as if it would be a good thing. All you had to do was say 'no, I do not support a coup, I support the people voting out the government if they don't like it'. That's all.

Stop making accusations and snide remarks, and maybe I won't have to correct your wrongful insinuations. The one in nursery school here isn't me.

It's not at all "nebulous" to say I support the Venezuelan people. I want them to determine their own future. You, OTOH, look at the crowds in the streets, you hear what they are saying (or do you even speak Spanish? Can you understand their chants?) and you insist that this is the work of nefarious actors. Nothing could be further from the truth, and if you had a hint of the level of actual human suffering in that country, you wouldn't make such obtuse and wrongheaded remarks.

Then, you boldly morph my support for the people (how dare they want a reduced murder rate? How dare they want food? How DARE they want electricity? How dare they want their money to be worth something?) into something mendacious, because YOU have this affection for Maduro that transcends his brutality, his excesses, his corruption and his fucking incompetence. I personally don't give a shit if They, The People hold a gun to Maduro's head and FORCE him to govern like someone who knows what he is doing for a change, if they tell him they want him to resign, or what-EVER. All I know is that the people deserve better.

And you should learn the system of government. There are choices besides "Let Maduro continue to be a dictator and drag Venezuela to hell" and that hot-breathed "coup" you keep shrieking about.

Anyone who sees a woman beaten by a civil guard, with a frigging HELMET, held down on the damn dual carriageway, and suggests that the willingness of the people to put themselves in that kind of danger, to the point where over a dozen people have been shot dead by Maduro's thugs and many, many more grievously wounded, is anything but an organic expression of EXTREME distress by, They, The People, is a damned propagandist who is ignoring reality because they are bound by ideology and loyalty to an asshole who doesn't deserve any.

with murders every day. Is that our President's fault? Because that is the ridiculous charge being made here. DC, right down from the WH is a murder capital of the world. Returning Iraq Vets from the war zone, have stated they were safer in Iraq than in some of our inner cities. If THAT is the purpose of these protests, then good luck to them with their coup, THAT will stop the murders I am sure.

IS Obama responsible for the murders in Chicago, his home town btw, or adapted home town, or in DC? What a ridiculous thing to assume.

I have accused you of nothing, I have deduced from YOUR OWN COMMENTS, and from the link you provided in which one of the 'leaders' of these protests have stated that they 'cannot wait for elections' that to you, supporting the Vz people means supporting what is most likely a minority of Right Wing criminals planning a coup.

You clearly support these people, or else you did not read your own link. A love letter to those who intend to topple the government, IF they can.

Don't blame others if your own comments lead to the conclusion that you support a coup in Venezuela. All you have to do is say 'I do not support a coup and I condemn the Right Winger Lopez for his stated goal of attempting a coup.

We saw crowds like this back in 2002. Same thing, different year. But when the rubber hit the road, they were a MINORITY and their coup was overthrown by what had been a, relatively silent majority, until it MATTERED.
Did you support the Vz people then?

Photos of crowds mean ZERO in terms of what the people want. We see crowds of Tea Baggers here, hundreds of thousands at Sarah Palin rallies in 2008. The world must have thought she was a shoe in. But when the PEOPLE spoke, those crowds meant NOTHING, in this democracy.

I KNOW why Lopez 'can't wait for the elections'. He KNOWS they would lose through the Democratic process. As they already did when the Vz people spoke with their votes, despite all the 'crowds' chanting against Maduro and the predictions of 'great victory'.

And what do you mean by 'I support the Vz people?? Do you support the leader of these protests who has stated clearly he intends to topple the government because he 'can't wait for the elections'? Or not. Why is that such a difficult question to answer?

I guess when there's no Charmin at your local grocery store, and you have to by the Scott, instead, you compare yourselves to the Venezuelans who have to stand in line for three hours to buy toilet paper, too...

Good grief, thanks for that post--you really DON'T get it, and you just proved it.

I think "I support the people of Venezuela" is quite clear. It's up to THEM, not me, and they are making their voices heard. Good thing you have nothing to do with that--you'd eagerly shut them up if it helped Maduro out, their concerns be damned, of that I have no doubt.

already their made their decision clear. They made it clear EACH TIME THESE right wingers tried to bring down their elected government. And here they are, trying it again. They ARE right wingers, worse than our own by comparison, right wing loonies. They make teabaggers look like liberals. Yet you support them. You give them credence. There is a real inconsistency in people who support the far Right in Latin America while deploring our, by comparison, mere shadows of these thugs.

We shut up people when we elect a president? They don't seem to have any problems at all over the past decade, less than OUR peaceful protesters here eg, letting us know what they think.

To try to justify crimes of treason by pointing to economic problems and murder rates, it just boggles the mind.

There is only one way to support the people of ANY democracy, and that is to oppose those who would steal that democracy from them. Period.

that is filled with personal attacks, childish ridicule of individuals in Venezuela as a 'news report'? We know eg, see leaks from various sources, cables, etc, that right wing 'interest groups' plant stories in legitimate news media, the Guardian has published a ton of them. I am sure you would agree that the Guardian gives voice to all sides, see Glenn Greenwald eg, and then see their Right Wing 'articles'. I saw nothing in that 'article' other than ridicule and accusations but few facts, all of it one-sided.

I am asking for NEWS not opinion and simply because something appears in, eg, the NYT, remember Judith Miller, doesn't make it news. I would have thought you already knew all of this.

By your remarks it's quite obvious you didn't read the thing.

Any author who lauds Lopez as the 'chivalrous' leader of the opposition, and casts him as a 'hollywood hero', are you serious? I actually laughed when I read it to be honest. A Rah Rah cheerleading piece for the anti-democracy process in Venezuela. IF THAT is your idea of a 'news' source, I'm afraid I could not disagree with you more.

The author clearly is biased. To the point of breathlessly repeating, what s/he didn't really realize, Lopez' intentions of 'not waiting for the next election'. Now what do you think that means?

If anything that article, and I'm glad it appeared in der spiegel where the world will get to see who these 'protesters' are, if anything it simply confirmed the suspicion that these are not 'protesters' they are out to effect a Coup D'Etat and the author of that biased piece apparently supports them.


But you're free to show me how 'neutral' and 'factual' it was if you wish.

Yeah, you read it all right (not).

Check out the BBC primer elsewhere in this thread--you're plainly confused about what the goals of these protests are and you're overlaying your biases on them.

has been for millions of Americans? I suppose if we went out and set fire to things, talked about 'not waiting for the next election' etc, you would now support that?

I think you may be the one who didn't read your own article.

Stop trying to construct false equivalencies and pretend that there's a similarity there, when there isn't and only you haven't figured that out. You're just embarrassing yourself at this stage.

From an earlier post:

Jens Glusing? Wow, you guys are really scraping the bottom of the international conservative barrel

Is Hugo Chavez Friends with FARC?

By Jens Glüsing

A spectacular find may prove what many have long suspected. E-mails and other files found on a FARC laptop in the jungles of Ecuador show that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez may have close relations with the terror group.

...

Chavez discovered his sympathy for the Marxist rebels in the early 1990s. At the time, he was a member of a group of rebellious officers who drew their ideological inspiration from the Marxist insurgent movements of the 1960s and '70s in Colombia and Venezuela. Following an attempted coup against then President Carlos Andres Perez, Chavez landed in prison. A cash injection from the FARC allegedly helped him out of his financial squeeze at the time.

...

“Venezuela is the drug trafficking mecca,” confirmed Colombian narcotics boss Luis Hernando Gomez Bustamante following his arrest last year. Former rebels say, however, that the Venezuelan authorities are directly involved in the trade. European diplomats in Caracas see a real danger in the country degenerating into a “drug state” under Chavez.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/dangerous-liaison-is-hugo-chavez-friends-with-farc-a-545910.html

You're sending people to a conservative author who represents a country that's waging an economic and banking *austerity" war on other countries right now? Wow.

Other fun articles by this hero of the rightwing trash at FR : "Was Salvador Allende a Racist?" "The Curse Of Che Guevara "

For Gawd's sake, try harder.

Please try harder. This is DU, not Free Republic where people swallow any conservative trash.

They even covered it in Glenn Greenwald's Guardian, eight long years ago. Unless you're suggesting that Glenn Greenwald's Guardian was "conservative trash," hmmmmm?

You're the one who is gonna have to do better, I'm afraid. This IS DU, indeed, where bullshit doesn't fly.

Your "nothing to see here, move along" schtick is getting OLD.

Greenwald, we were not supposed to take anything from the Guardian seriously anymore. It must be hard trying to keep up with what is an what is not a good source. Telling the difference between opinion pieces and actual news.

For me, I know that The Guardian and Der Spiegel and the NYT present sometimes very questionable opinion pieces, but we are able to sort out opinion from NEWS.

You know GG left the Guardian, so I suppose you'll find that the reason to dislike them now! I never told you to not take the Guardian seriously--you made that up, for effect.

My point is that a wide variety of sources, that aren't propaganda shitpools like Venezuelananalysis, are all saying the same thing.

Venezuela has trouble, and the reason for the trouble is the shitty economy, the horrible inflation, the worst murder rate in the world, no food, no electricity and a failing infrastructure....oh, and corruption. Lots and lots of Maduro corruption!



When will you figure out this isn't about ideology? It's not left-right, elites-serfs, or any of the false constructs you keep trying to vomit up.

It's about incompetence! Plain and simple.

who 'don't want to wait for the next election' and do the same thing? I suppose that is one way of doing it, not the democratic way, but one way. And since you support that way, I am assuming you would support it here, and if not, why not?

As for your Guardian piece, clearly you are not familiar with 'author' of the piece. Put it this way, he's not a very good choice as a 'reliable, unbiased source'.

two legs and an arm.

If you can't see the difference, you have a problem.

And if you don't think that Chavez and the FARC were in cahoots, well, then this never happened. Only wait...it did.

Ooops. There comes a point, Sabrina, when you can't shoot the messenger.

(see America's tent citiies, cities bankrupt, people with no jobs, no homes, no future. Tell THEM it's just a 'paper cut'. See what they have to say to you.

So, are you now saying that the degree of economic woes, like the Great Depression here, or was that just a paper cut also, justifies toppling a Government duly elected by the people?

I mean you get irritated if I interpret from YOUR COMMENTS what it is you are supporting. Yet, you refuse to just come right out and say what most Democrats have no problem saying 'NO, I do not support the toppling of a Democratic Government'. It's a short, concise statement of where you stand, but so far, you have gone around and around, attempting to justify Right Wingers planning a coup, because they 'can't wait for elections'. YOU posted the link to those statements, so you must have read the article, no? You have not yet condemned Lopez' for his clearly stated plans, so forgive me if I get the idea that you DO support what Lobez is planning.

at the statistics. Start with the murder rate.



You aren't doing a very good job of reading what I write, so perhaps you should just stow what you "interpret" and work real hard at simply reading the sentences on the screen and processing those.

Lopez's "plans"--near as I can tell, and I am no "insider"--would be to answer the charges against him and get out of jail. The government has him under lock and key, for you to make him the "Boogie Man" in this equation suggests that you believe he has super powers. Or something.

That's a hard one to figure, along with the article posted in DU briefly from one source claiming Chavez was a billionaire.

Or don't...makes no diff to me.

It was created by the Venezuelan Consul's husband in the US.

Sorry, people aren't stupid here. We really DO know what's going on, despite all of your desperate attempts to censor what is posted.

You're posting the rantings of a government that shut down the last opposition TV station, and you're whining about CENSORSHIP?



Really, Polly7, you can do better than that, surely~! I think the one who is a bit, er, desperate is the one putting that word in bold!!

They're bullshit.

Just as is much of everything else you post.

articles and sources.

Sucks to not be able to control dialogue and facts, though, heh? Maybe you need a refresher in 'catapulting the propaganda' course, or 'how to control issues on a message board' - I'm sure there are places that will help you out, you've not doing so well with it here as of yet.

Polly, you aren't making your case. I don't need to "control dialogue and facts"--that's what you're trying to do, with your baseless accusations and your regime propaganda--that you are frantically trying to "catapult," only it's going over like a lead balloon.

You still haven't explained why da Silva and Mujica are getting involved. What's that about, hmmmmm? Why do you keep avoiding that inconvenient truth?

There have been dozens/hundreds of articles on what you're trying to deny. I'm not interested in your pathetic attempts to derail yet another thread.

Go start your own to rant about sources that have you pulling your hair out.

I'm hoping a few intelligent people will see this one and comment on the actual content.

Bye bye.

Where are these "hundreds" of articles? Not propaganda from Venezuelananalysis, actual articles, please?

You haven't been able to prove a single statement you've made. Why is that, I wonder?

Why aren't you commenting about what da Silva and Mujica are trying to accomplish? I've only asked you, what, three times now?

Is it that you don't have a grasp of the subject? That's why you snark, zzzzzzz, and wave 'bye bye?'

Yes, I think that's it.

he's convinced me. You, on the other hand, seem rather desperate and frustrated.

I know that it can be difficult accepting that a significant chunk of what you sincerely believe may be untrue, but you have to be objective about the preponderance of evidence, or you're just cheating at solitaire.

For most of my life, I sincerely believed that the American economic system was the best in the world. After joining DU in 2006, I began to realize, slowly, that our system was deeply flawed and rigged to favor the rich and connected. It was very difficult for me to accept this, but I couldn't go on kidding myself when faced with mountains of evidence that the rich were fleecing everyone else.

I have no particular ax to grind against you or any of the VZ regime supporters, but I see a disturbing reluctance to accept any evidence that contradicts your worldview.

Me - I'm a cynic. I've lived long enough to see that any government will bend the truth into impossible shapes to survive.

Do you want a little medal for that? Many, many people have that or better. (But don't see the need to brag about it).

I happen to believe people and authors who've been proven out time after time as correct when it comes to ugly, shitty things like whole nations of people suffering and any advancements they've made gone out the window as right wing coups/invasions/corporations, etc. have first destabilized, then outright destroyed those nations for the benefit of the global elite (who I'm sure all have advanced degrees in something!).

Also ........ this isn't about YOU. Go start your own Flatulo thread somewhere else.

narrative doesn't ring true for me. You've been requested to source your claims from other authors than those at Venezuelaanalysis,com, and you haven't.

That is rather telling. I haven't seen such dissonance even from religious zealots.

I agree with you that western powers have fleeced LA for centuries. But this is 2014, and there are claims flying about that the protests in VZ are AstroTurf, but I see another side to this story, one which regime supporters here are desperately trying to ignore.

thread and discussion with your snotty analysis of others posting habits and demanding what they do. Do you keep a spreadsheet? I assume so, with that advanced degree and all.

You're also boring.

Bye bye.

You only hurt your own credibility when you publicly put your fingers in your ears and go 'Nyah-Nyah'.

Venezuela. I believe you called my request for such sources 'nasty'. Sorry about that but if you are debunking one source, the way to do so is to provide a credible source, not your own opinion, that could prove your 'opinion' to be correct. Up to now, I haven't seen you produce an actual debunking of what you claim to be 'not credible'.

I guess it's nasty of me to request something substantial, other than your opinion which of course you are entitled to, to prove this source wrong.

Get out of transmit mode and do a little reading. You just might learn something.

What's nasty is your repeated whines about demands for sources, and then your refusal to read them when I point you to them, in all caps, too--that's POST ONE in THIS THREAD. AGAIN. Like I told you, BEFORE.

Give it a go!

Oh, and the obligatory little roly poly laughing guy now a staple of 'serious' discussion here

Otherwise you would not be here trying to debunk something that so far has not succeeded. Anything to say about the involvement of Right Wingers formerly involved in attempted coups of the legitimate government, like the guy lauded in the link you provided, Lopez, hmmmmm?

tossed snark and zzzzzzz's and pretended to be bored.

Lopez has more stones than Maduro--at least he's confronting the issues, as is Capriles and dozens of other leaders across the country.

This is about security, food, murders in the streets, no power, no internet and censorship.

Your answer is "Waaaaaaaaaaah.... LOPEZ!"

Pssst, Lopez is in Ramo Verde, but I'm wondering if you're even aware of that...he's not running the show anymore.

position which I appreciate. You DO support the overthrow of a legitimate Democratic Government.

Now to the next question, do you support this ONLY in foreign countries, or would you support it here and if there is a difference, please point it out to us.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, Sabrina--no sale. This isn't text messaging. Your comments and mine are visible, and people CAN read.

What happens to that corrupt idiot is up to the people of VZ. He's either going to have to correct himself or step down. Of course, if he steps down, who steps up, hmmmm, oh "Venezuela expert?"

Let me help you, since you seem to confuse "resignation" with "coup" and you do it way too often. Because you seem to get a THRILL from the idea...something for you to rail against, dramatically!

The VP is a guy named Rangel. Psssst--he's Maduro's VP, he's a chavista...is that quite clear now? He'd get the chore until elections could be called. THAT's how the government works.

But oh, you want--so badly--for mo' bettah drama, doncha? Darn the bad luck!

I don't 'pretend' to be bored.

You do bore me.

I saw exactly the same tactics used to justify Iraq, Libya and so many more of these right-wing funded coups and change of gov't. You're not original, convincing or even intelligent.

The food issues, security, violence issues have been addressed many times in many threads here - but what you can't use to ramp the propaganda for your much wanted overthrow of a popular gov't doesn't seem to interest you.

Pathetic, and BORING.

There's zero relationship between VZ and Iraq.

But go on ahead and see visions of conspiracies dancing in your head if that makes you feel better.

Those videos aren't of ten guys around a statue. There are people, in white, marching for peace and justice as far as the eye can see. But hey, pay no attention to them--they're "just" the people of Venezuela. And a LOT of them voted for Chavez.

And you're so "bored" you're back for more...I'd say that "pathetic" term needs to be reassigned.

that the propaganda articles they post are nearly all from non-Venezuelans including many who are paid by the regime? Alex Main, Weisbrot, Golinger etcetera.

You've been attempting to invalidate sources you dislike since you got here. Take the time to give DU'ers evidence you should be believed regarding your claims FIRST, don't just throw it out there every time.

this for those of us who dare to comment on affairs that involve OUR GOVERNMENT if you don't mind?

and their owners would have been long gone. Period. What sane person can forget what the Congressional Republicans did to PBS, and Public radio? Jesus H. Christ on his pogo stick. Their funding was yanked almost completely, and they've been reduced to a faint, and right-wing shadow of their former selves, which, as we know, were never leftist, to start with. They apparently simply weren't right-wing enough!

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Media In Venezuela: Facts and Fiction
Written by Caitlin McNulty and Liz Migliorelli
Monday, 17 August 2009 09:36

~snip~
Media Sources in Venezuela

The preferred news source of most Venezuelans is television media. There are at least five nationally broadcasted television stations that dispatch via "free-over-the-air" and publicly allotted signals. These stations include Venevisión (controlled by Grupo Cisneros), Univision, Televisión de Venezuela (Televen) and previous to it's closing (which will be explained later in the article), Radio Caracas Television (RCTV).2

For several decades, commercial television in Venezuela has belonged to an oligopoly of two families, the Cisneros and the Bottome & Granier Group. The tremendous influence of these parties reaches beyond broadcast networks into advertising and public relations agencies that operate for the welfare of the stations, as well as record labels and other societal industries that produce material to be promoted on the stations. Not only does the Cisneros family own Venevisión, the largest station in Venezuela, they own over seventy media outlets in 39 countries, including DirecTV Latin America, AOL Latin America, Caracol Television (Colombia), the Univisión Network in the United States, Galavisión, Playboy Latin America as well as beverage and food distribution such as Coca Cola bottling, Regional Beer and Pizza Hut in Venezuela. They also own entities such as Los Leones baseball team of Caracas and the Miss Venezuela Pageant.3 The reach of the Cisneros power is massive; the media monopoly broadcasts to more than four million television screens in Venezuela, giving it tremendous power and influence.

Globovisión, a channel that is widely broadcast in major metropolitan centers such as Caracas, Carabobo and Zulia and is also available on satellite on DirecTV, and CNN en Español are both private stations that have a harsh anti-Chávez rhetoric. President of CNN en Español Christopher Cromwell has said that Chávez may not like the programming on his network, but this meant that CNN was doing its job correctly. Another station, Valores Educativos Televisión (Vale TV) is a major regional network that is neither state-run nor commercially aimed, run by the Asociación Civil, which is managed by the Catholic Church.4 These smaller, regional networks are never mentioned in reports of media in Venezuela. Five major private television networks control at least 90% of the market and smaller private stations control another 5%. This 95% of the broadcast market was quick to express its opposition to President Chávez's administration as early as 1999, soon after Chávez first took office.5 There are three public and state-controlled television channels that exist on the same national electromagnetic spectrum, including Venezolana de Televisión (VTV, established in 1964, a state-owned television network); Visión Venezuela (ViVe TV, established in 2003, a cultural network funded by the government that is not yet broadcasted nationally); and Televisora Venezolana Social (TVes, established in 2007 as RCTV's substitute).6 These channels cannot compete with the privately owned, commercial media that serve as the dominant source of television news media in Venezuela.

Print media in Venezuela is diverse, but it depicts a greater opposition presence than seen in television networks. Many publications are corporate-owned and extremely critical of the Chávez administration. In comparison to the United States, where New York, the largest city, has only four daily papers (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, Daily News), two of which are markedly sympathetic to the Bush administration, Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, has twenty-one daily papers. Whereas the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today and Washington Post are the only nationally distributed daily papers in the United States, Venezuela circulates eight daily papers nationally. A Washington D.C. based think-tank Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) has described the print media situation in simple terms: "nine out of ten newspapers, including [the most prestigious daily] El Nacional and [the business oriented] El Universal, are staunchly anti-Chávez." 7

The Coup d'Etat

Never was corporate media's agenda of destabilizing the Chavez government more transparent than during the 2002 coup attempt against Chávez, which was seen by many as the "first media war in world history".8 Overwhelming public outrage broke out as the majority of Venezuelans who voted Chávez into office saw the democratic process derailed before their very eyes. Their voices, actions, and protests were silenced by the news media in favor of the "inauguration ceremony" of Pedro Carmona, the illegitimate coup-appointed interim President of Venezuela. In response to the government's change of the executive board of Petroleros de Venezuela (PDVSA, Venezuela's oil company) a massive opposition march to the headquarters of PDVSA was promoted by print media, radio and television incessantly. In the days before the coup, instead of regular television programming, Venevisión, RCTV, Globovisión and Televen broadcasted constant anti-Chávez speeches and propaganda calling for viewers to take to the streets. Some ads urged, "Venezuelans, take to the streets on Thursday, April 11 at 10 a.m. Bring your flags. For freedom and democracy. Venezuela will not surrender. No one will defeat us."9 Many propaganda ads were extremely threatening and clearly intended to instigate violence and an overthrow of the Chávez government.

More:
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/venezuela-archives-35/2059--media-in-venezuela-facts-and-fiction

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Carter Center Explodes Myths About TV News Media in Venezuela – without even trying to
By Joe Emersberger at Jul 25, 2013

A few weeks ago, former US president Jimmy Carters’ group came out with a report on Venezuela’s presidential elections in April. Here is a crucial excerpt from the summary:

A Carter Center television monitoring exercise from March 28-April 16 showed that state television station VTV broadcast more electoral coverage (excluding paid campaign ads) than the three largest private television stations combined. In the total coverage monitored, the Maduro campaign received 57 percent of the coverage of all outlets monitored, the Capriles campaign 34 percent, and the National Election Council (CNE) 9 percent.

Venevisión as the undisputed national leader for news, with an average of 35 percent of the market. It is followed by the public channel Venezolana de Televisión, with 25 percent, and Televen and Globovisión, in third and fourth place, with 22 and 15 percent, respectively.

some 'approved sources'? You don't like this source, surely you have some links that would refute the information in this one? Credible sources I mean.

I provided a link from der speigel, who are hardly USAUSAUSA apologists on any given day.

Course, if you'd read the thread for content, instead of honing in on me, as you do, you might have noticed that.

are predictable.

Got anything to say about the content of the article by any chance?

You should explain why DU'ers shouldn't be allowed to refer to this source to read truthful writing.

It's up to you to explain through examples shown that they would be so loathsome as to use their publication as an outlet for scummy hate mongering and whoppers.

leaks about how online discussion is being manipulated by 'intelligence' agencies. One of the tactics is to 'attack the source' and never, discuss the content. I guess they think it works otherwise why keep doing something that only emphasizes the lack of substance to these kind of comments. Just want them to know, it doesn't.

I see that no regime supporters have commented on it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826651

at least they don't publish photo-shopped pics like you do, Judi Lynn.

these Right Wingers seriously.

I honestly don't have the patience any more for this bullshit of derailing threads based on accusations so transparent and stupid, so thanks for trying! Please just ignore the crap and don't waste anymore time on them. For anyone who wants to read the article and may find something of interest, I'm glad to post .... for the coup-supporting, right-wing parrots of a script and tactic I've seen used over and over ad-nauseum .... yes, you're boring, pathetic, transparent and not worth the comments that both of the above have been gracious enough to provide you with. Your right-wing freaks have a larger fight on their hands than Maduro, but I imagine you're salivating at the thought of the millions who've poured their hearts and souls into a prosperous Venezuela free from corporate control and the horrors they once lived through being sent back in time of affluence and influence for only those at the top. I'll say it again ................... you're PATHETIC.

And the opposition press is even worse. Knowing how our government is disrupting online forums, I'm not even sure it's worth engaging with our resident proudly imperial citizens. The internet is a poisoned well now - an agent of control more insidious than television. Private contractors are out there flooding popular forums with pro-Western, pro-corporate propaganda, and their tools have overwhelmed the methods developed so far for rooting them out. If I spend hours arguing with someone online, that's coming out of time I could be spending volunteering somewhere or with my family. I'm not doing it if all I'm doing is paying some troll's light bill. I'd rather just engage with people who don't seem like tools.

Thank you so much. I saw this same sort of thing before and during Iraq and Libya's bloody fiascoes, to see it again time after time has just got me to the point I can't even bother anymore and truly admire those that have the patience here to deal with it.

I spend little time here because of what you point out.
I'd rather help decent people in need of help.
Spending time repairing a denture, making a bite appliance, or doing lab work on cases for patients that I'm not charging for is time well spent. Much better than time spent discussing these topics with trolls.
I do love my friends herein - I have such great admiration for so many of you.
We (my smiletrain.org group) were going to be going to Ven in April. Not sure of what's going to occur now. Very bummed out because of this.

Thanks for your salient and kindhearted post.


Much love to all my sisters and brothers herein.

[hr]

You're one who most clearly puts your money where your mouth is, and healing skilled procedures where other mouths are!

Thanks for your kind words.
Not only do I do what I do for others, but I do so for me too.

"Our lives are not our own.
From womb to tomb,
we are bound to others,
past and present,
and by each crime and every kindness,
we birth our future."
~ David Mitchell

This one is spot on.

Especially after this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826651
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1108&pid=26734

sources in any way?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826651

I have a hard time believing the story for a few reasons. One - there are plenty of stock photos out there of real guns, not the blatantly orange-tipped toys visible here. Hell, the Venezuelan army has guns that they could put on a wall and take a picture of if they really needed to fake it. Two - if this guy is currently barricaded in his house (with his arsenal), how could they possibly have a picture of his arsenal? So the description of the story is at the very least incomplete, but more likely partially or totally fabricated. Now that I looked at yours, why don't you watch this:

It was done exactly to try to stimulate, evoke foaming-at-the-mouth fury at the democratic people of the country, to fire up the right-wing assholes to take their criminality into the streets to continue their "guarimba" (violent, filthy "protest&quot 'til there were no leftists left standing.

If ANYONE tried that evil stunt in a law-abiding country, those responsible would have been buried in the deepest, most remote part of some federal prison.

You seem to not understand what is happening here. Cabello is shown, very clearly at 1:09:59, holding a photo of an arsenal of paintball guns, claiming that they are assault weapons. You need to look at this and wrap your mind around what it means.

There's no earthly way around this - the man is blatantly lying, caught on an unedited, uninterrupted clip from VTV. You can even follow the time stamp in the bottom right corner of the screen to see that there is nothing missing. The scene cannot possibly be altered, as there is a sequence of frames showing a wide shot of Cabello holding the photo in his hand. There is no cut scene into which phony video can be inserted; it's all one take. Maybe Steven Speilberg could pull it off, but I doubt he's involved.

There's just no way that a person with even a shred of integrity can deny this. You seem to have inserted a generic rant instead of addressing what is happening here.

The VZ government, represented by Cabello, has been caught in a massive lie. The video is conclusive evidence

To be perfectly honest, the orange tips on the guns didn't leap out at me in the top photo. I'm on an iPad, and the top photo seems to be deliberately blurred. Upon closer examination of that single frame I do easily see the plastic tips, but if it was just a few frames from a video, it would be easy to miss them.

I think we need to look at the frames in the context of the video. My Spanish isn't good enough to translate, but if it was a hoax, wouldn't the regime denounce it as such?

I have seen "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised' a few times, but not for a while. I'll take a look this weekend. I wouldn't be surprised to see that both the regime and the opposition are trying to spin the news to their advantage, with clever editing etc.

Thanks for taking the time to address my post with integrity.

Is pretty well made. The problem is that they manipulate facts as everyone does regarding the 11 april 2002 events in Venezuela.

For example, if you see when they describe the situation with the gunmen on the bridge, it is maybe true that they weren't shooting at demonstrators but it is false to say that they were shooting at snipers. You can easily see that they aren't shooting to the rooftops but to the street in front of them. Also, when they talk about the snipers and then show people who, they explain, are hiding from the incoming sniper shots, there's a little problem. You see people taking cover by just lying down on the bridge road, which means they were not protecting themselves from bullets coming from above, but from below.

Also the fact that they go to the richest neighborhood in town and that they interview exclusively the most radical antichavista people shows their total parti pris. Anyone could go make a documentary about chavismo and its ideological stands with interviews of the most radical groups too. It would make chavismo look like a criminal ideology.

Which is an important issue. They were on the bridge ready to ambush unarmed protesters. Had the police not diverted, I expect a lot of dead people would've been the result. A lot.

It's a wide shot - you see Cabello and his arm and hand and the phony photo all in the frame, all in one take, so there's no cut scene in which a few doctored frames could have been inserted.

This settles it for me.

Cabello is clearly holding a photograph of a paintball arsenal. My Spanish isn't good enough to translate, but I get the gist if it.

This man is clearly full of shit.

incident to make the opposition look blameless. I get that. Our own media has committed similar transgressions. It's just evidence that they're not truly impartial, especially Fox News, but I see spin from MSNBC as well. The take-away should be that one should look at as much information as possible to get all the angles on the story. One source is usually not sufficient.

I'm not expressing support for the self-proclaimed leaders of the opposition, although as VZ citizens, they certainly have the right to protest as well. I'm expressing support for students themselves to peacefully protest. I think they should distance themselves from the self-proclaimed opposition leaders.

I'm also expressing concern that there seems to be a civilian army of red shorts dedicated to making sure that the citizenry has 'got their mind right'. I find that incredibly creepy. If it happened here I'd be stockpiling guns and ammunition. I don't think people need an civilian army to protect the revolution. If the revolution is any good, it will survive on it's own,

I believe that there are sufficient problems with the VZ governance to warrant peaceful protest. The government has been ignoring basic economic theory, at their peril. They've overspent, printed money, and now they're trying to keep their currency artificially high, which is affecting the ability of producers to import materials they need to pay for in dollars to produce the goods the people need, preferring to blame outside actors for their poor decision-making. At least that's my non-expert take on it, gleamed from a wide variety of news sources.

The problem I have with some regime supporters here on DU is that they rely exclusively on Venezuelaanalysis.com for their data. This site seems to me to be fawningly, obsequiously, dedicated to the Chavez/Maduro experiment. I understand that they very much want the VZ socialist experiment to succeed, but they seem to turn a blind eye towards any evidence to the contrary. At least you seem willing to look at alternate interpretations.

Certainly paramilitaries often lead to tensions boiling over into violence. But given the history of military coups and right wing para-militarism in the country/region, and Venezuela's inability to seriously engage a Western military force, it's hard to fault the logic in it. Venezuela still faces the very real risk that some organized military force headed by a former general is going to show up and declare that they are the government, again. That's not far from what happened in Honduras, and now left wingers are disappearing across the country. That isn't ancient history; that could happen in Venezuela too.

I have no issue with the people protesting to air grievances or to build public support for peaceful democratic change. Some of the tactics that are being employed even by the peaceful demonstrators in Venezuela are not going to be tolerated anywhere. Trying to shut down the whole city by forming human circles at all major intersections would get you jailed at the least in my town, and probably beaten too - by other citizens if not by the police. The problem is that many people here and at other forums are trying to sell the current protests as a justification for regime change through non-democratic means, which I'm not OK with.

Being an outsider to the country, I'm not versed enough in the day to day reality of life in Venezuela to dictate to people what the solutions to their problems are. I just know that there is a certain fog of war that comes with the Western media portrayal of the country, so I take what I hear about it with an enormous grain of salt. I do know the country has a fairly robust democratic process, and that the PSUV has won 14 of the last 15 elections. I know that they picked up seats in the elections they held just last December. I know that the opposition has several dedicated TV channels, protests frequently, and isn't afraid to use violent tactics, so they don't seem particularly suppressed. When and if the people of Venezuela democratically express that they want to end the Maduro/Chavez experiment, I will be fine with that. Anything less than that will draw extreme skepticism from me.

here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1108&pid=25604

I think they show a pattern of what we in the States would clearly define as excessive force, if not outright murder. After all, there are at least fifteen dead already, and I don't believe for a minute that, as some regime spokespersons have claimed, the protesters are killing themselves and then blaming the security forces. I see the security forces firing into crowds, a woman being savagely beaten by a group of brave men, and other abuses.

I think it shows, at the very least, a sorry lack of training on the part of the NG, and at worst, far too much revolutionary zeal. The protesters are human beings, after all. There is also clear evidence that armed civilians are joining in with the security forces in using live fire into crowds. I suspect they're government workers who don't want to lose their plum jobs, but I have no way to prove it.

I agree with you that the democratic process must be adhered to if there is to be any regime change. Any western-backed coup would be utterly tainted and would set VZ into an endless cycle of violence. However, even the formerly adoring Carter Center has expressed concern that various types of intimidation were used in the last few elections. Red shirts patrolling polling places, that sort of thing.

You seem like a fair-minded person - have a look at those video clips. Even if they're cherry-picked, they're still disturbing.

liberals, and like-minded others.

They don't seem to grasp their right-wing gibberish is wildly out of place here, their temper tantrums, slurs, mockery.

variety of reasons. Prominent democrats include Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and John Kerry.

When Skinner renames the site to Socialist Underground, your most unwelcoming posts will be more appropriate. Until then, I think there's room in both the party and this site for disagreement.

Your comment is way out of place. Let people speak their minds and try to relax.

it didn't hurt that the Army jailed all their opponents for the Uni elections

Rather than some piss fucking poor criticism of some anonymous posting which originates from nowhere rebutted with deflections and complete de-humanization of the student protesters.

I am so glad to have read this. I must repeat it, even though you excerpted it in the O.P.:

We reject any attempt at destabilization, hoarding of food and of coup-mongering that aims to bypass the sovereign decisions of the people of Venezuela (…) Similarly, we don’t feel represented by the actions of Venezuelan student sectors that have taken the side of the defense of the old order and are opposed to the path that the people have defined.

THE ONLY objective of “THE GUARIMBA” (…) is to create anarchistic chaos on the national level with the help of all citizens and in the main cities of Venezuela, so as to force the CASTRO-COMMUNIST regime of Venezuela to order “PLAN AVILA {a military contingency plan to enforce public order that was used during the 1989 Caracazo protests and that left thousands dead}.”