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Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:05 AM Mar 2014

5 myths about the Venezuela crisis

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/07/5_myths_about_the_venezuela_crisis_partner/

1. Latin America is wild about Chavismo

Many on the left believe that Chavismo, the leftist movement launched by the late Hugo Chavez, has the backing of most Latin Americans. That’s not borne out by the research. Latinobarometro, a Chilean nonprofit that tracks public opinion in 18 countries in the Americas, found Chavez’s approval rating was mildly negative across the region for much of his time in office. On a scale where 0 indicates “very bad” and 10 “very good,” he scored between 3.9 and 5 over the period 2005-2011. Although there are no similar studies on his political heir, President Nicolas Maduro, there are reasons to believe he may be faring worse than his mentor. He won last April’s presidential election — amid a national outpouring of grief over Chavez’s untimely death from cancer — by a razor thin margin, 50.6 percent to his opponent’s 49.1 percent. Venezuela’s deep-seated economic problems have reached crisis proportions since Maduro took office, while even some of his supporters acknowledge he lacks Chavez’s personal appeal. Within Venezuela, Maduro’s popularity is falling. According to one study by pollster Datanalisis, his government’s approval fell from its peak of 55 percent to41 percent last November.

2. The opposition is a bunch of “fascists”

Maduro routinely dismisses the entire Venezuelan opposition as “fascist” and “coup-mongers” — even as he calls for national reconciliation. He gets away with it in part thanks to the US-backed 2002 coup attempt against the democratically elected Chavez, an event that discredited the Venezuelan right for years. But just how right wing is the new wave of younger opposition leaders? Not very, if you pay attention to what leaders such as Henrique Capriles, who narrowly lost to Maduro last April, actually say. His Democratic Unity alliance says it’scommitted to establishing a social security system “that works for all,” and strengthening the missions, Chavez’s revered social programs targeting the poorest. Capriles has also spoken out against discrimination against gays — in response to homophobic comments from Maduro highlighting his opponent’s singleton status. Meanwhile, the small Popular Will party of Leopoldo Lopez, the jailed leader awaiting trial for allegedly inciting anti-government violence, is affiliated with the Socialist International movement. To be a member, you don’t actually have to be socialist, but you do at least need to uphold European-style “social democratic” principles. Within the US, Capriles and Lopez might possibly feel at home somewhere on the moderate wing of the Democratic Party. As Harvard political scientist and Latin America expert Steven Levitsky has pointed out, their problem is not that they are “fascist” but that they are “posh,” a serious political handicap in a country still wracked by poverty and conditioned by 15 years of class war rhetoric

3. Chavismo is good for the poor

If Maduro and Chavez have a single claim to justify their combined 15 years in power, it’s that they have significantly benefited Venezuela’s poor majority. No one seriously questions that the percentage of Venezuelans classed as poor has dropped from around 50 percent to 30 percent over that period. The problem is that many other countries in Latin America, including staunchly free-market economies Chile and Peru, have registered similar progress over the same period. Just take a look at this graph by Argentine economist Lucas Llach. Meanwhile, the Venezuelan Violence Observatory, a research nonprofit, confirmed to GlobalPost that most of the victims of the horrific violent crime overwhelming Venezuela are poor. The country’s food scarcity and eye-popping inflation — 56 percent last year — also hurt the poor more than the rich, many of whom live in heavily guarded gated communities and have offshore dollar bank accounts. As if that wasn’t enough, there are serious doubts about the sustainability of Chavez’s social programs, which rely heavily on funding from the ailing state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA (PDVSA). It accounts for a staggering 96 percentof Venezuela’s exports and half of all government revenue from taxes. Any new administration wanting to maintain or improve the missions will first have to take the painful steps of sorting out Venezuela’s economic meltdown, and ending its addiction to easy petro-dollars.

4. The United States has influence

Some in the United States want the Obama administration to take a stronger stance against the Venezuelan government, most notably Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and Bob Menendez (D-New Jersey), who are pushing for “targeted sanctions,” including visa bans, for Maduro and his senior officials. Although the US has much at stake in Venezuela — not least the 750,000 barrels of oil the US imports from the South American nation each day — Washington might do well to remember how it came to be viewed with such hostility in the South American nation. Many Venezuelans remember bitterly George W. Bush’s support for the failed 2002 coup against Chavez. That memory still provides high-caliber ammunition for Maduro’s speeches railing against US “imperialism.” Even the Venezuelan opposition now avoids being seen to associate with US officials. Using proxies to pressure the Maduro administration won’t work either, given the echoing silence coming from most Latin American leaders about events on the ground in Venezuela. Possibly, the smartest US strategy would be to do nothing, beyond offering verbal condemnation of Maduro’s repression, and let his government run aground all on its own. That appears to be exactly what the Obama administration is doing.




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5 myths about the Venezuela crisis (Original Post) Bacchus4.0 Mar 2014 OP
Maduro speaks RobertEarl Mar 2014 #1
49.1% of Venezuelans voted against Maduro, and that was before the shortages and Flatulo Mar 2014 #2
So now you are an economist? RobertEarl Mar 2014 #3
"And so the rich did everything they could to defeat the Bolivars but failed! FAILED They f'n lost" ChangoLoa Mar 2014 #4
It is called a campaign RobertEarl Mar 2014 #5
What do you mean by "the bolivars"? ChangoLoa Mar 2014 #6
My bad RobertEarl Mar 2014 #7
He's more of an economist than Maduro is. smokey775 Mar 2014 #8
Read this RobertEarl Mar 2014 #9
I did read it. smokey775 Mar 2014 #10
And yours? RobertEarl Mar 2014 #11
My source? Already listed, smokey775 Mar 2014 #12
The 49% who voted against Maduro represents more than 7 million Venezuelans Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #13
Yes, many richer people voted for Maduro. RobertEarl Mar 2014 #16
So what about those who are poor and have been poor that voted against him? Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #17
All you need to know, dear fellow RobertEarl Mar 2014 #18
You still haven't answered my question, stop trying to change the subject Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #19
Talk with any economist who knows Venezuela well and they'll tell you the same thing Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #14
Sure? RobertEarl Mar 2014 #15
Why is there erosion in confidence in VZs currency? Flatulo Mar 2014 #20
The 'useless shit' I designed was computer hard drives, Flatulo Mar 2014 #21
"The US is putting the economic screws to VZ, because Big Oil wants the VZ oil." EX500rider Mar 2014 #22
Capitalist fascists hate democratic socialists. Complete and total HATE. delrem Mar 2014 #23
Democratic Socialists don't like or use toilet paper, believe all food should be imported Bacchus4.0 Mar 2014 #24
That's just ...... not thought out. delrem Mar 2014 #25
yeah, your post was ridiculous Bacchus4.0 Mar 2014 #26
The gov't of Venezuela is democratically elected. Socialist. delrem Mar 2014 #27
the government of Venezuela is horrible, just look at the problems in the country n/t Bacchus4.0 Mar 2014 #28
As I said... nt delrem Mar 2014 #29
As you said? Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #30
So, you're really, really upset, mondo upset, Marksman_91. delrem Mar 2014 #31
There's really no need for that kind of language Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #32
I'll repeat it then. Since asswipe shortages seem to be on some people's brains. delrem Mar 2014 #33
Sometimes labels aren't particularly helpful. The Scandanavian states Flatulo Mar 2014 #34
No. You only know how to smear. You have no argument. delrem Mar 2014 #35
No interest in history? Not so. I'm on record in many postings as being completely and utterly Flatulo Mar 2014 #36
Right. I believe you, Flatulo - you're baffled by your own posts. nt delrem Mar 2014 #37
Funny how you respond to civility with rudeness, without fail. Flatulo Mar 2014 #39
You keep reducing these discussions to personal attacks and you'll face the banammer Marksman_91 Mar 2014 #41
Well, y'know - you're engaging in a personal attack. delrem Mar 2014 #42
I think it is very telling, delrem Mar 2014 #38
Would it be possible for anybody in any way, to express disagreement with the Venezuelan government Oele Mar 2014 #40
Not if the intent is to foment violence, to make way for a coup, delrem Mar 2014 #43
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
1. Maduro speaks
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:01 PM
Mar 2014

MADURO: That’s an excellent question, because indeed the opposition… there’s been a debate, and different positions. At first majority of the opposition is part of the mood, the democratic group, and through electoral means they have tried to change the government. They have participated in elections, they have deputies, the opposition have 40% of the deputies of the assembly. They have governors, they have majors, they have participated in all presidential campaigns of the last years with the single presidential candidate, with all the forces of the opposition behind and they have tried through democratic means to present their programme to the country. However, the opposition participated in the coup attempt against Hugo Chavez in 2002 in April. They attempted another coup d’état in December 2002, 2003, they attempted a similar action like today to provoke violence for another coup d’état in 2004. They tried to get rid of that past, of that record, but I say today you should know in the US and your audience of this prestigious show that those who have started this violence plan is a minority, is a tiny group belonging to the opposition, and they are put the rest of the opposition in a dire situation, and this is a criticism I made publically, and do not say they are in agreement with these attacks. In the US for instance, just give me an example, the case of the US, a political group, they call to offer President Obama, and then they have a road map and say “this day we’re going to do this and this to get rid of Obama, we’re going to the White House this day for President Obama to go”. What would the US do if a tiny group would say they’re going to generate a revolution or a revolt to change the constitutional government of the US? I guess the state will react, will then resort to the tools to restore order and peace and to intact (?) those who are against the constitution, and that’s exactly what happened in this country over the last weeks.
snip--
MADURO: I think that we need is cooperation. Cooperation. Venezuelans have a long history. So we are able to listen to each other, to talk to each other. From here were born the liberators of the region, and they said before and after that process we have a culture of political action. We are not in despair. That’s the image broadcast to abroad. To try to hit morally a revolution that we are conducting in favour of the poor, of the workers, of the disenfranchised, a revolution that has given public education, free education, good at all levels. You can go to the streets and you find children in the free schools, universities, young people they don’t have to ask for loans to go to the universities to study engineering, law, etc. a revolution that gave back the right to health to the people, to the poor, to the humble, a revolution that has special plans, and guarantees food to all the people so Venezuela is not in despair situation as some people try to portray and sell to abroad. We have problems, as any other country. We have economic problems of course we have. Do you have problems in the US? Do you have problems in the US? You have a huge debt, a colossal debt, as never, ever before. How come you have a huge fiscal deficit, you have increased in poverty in the US, an awful figure of poverty in the U.S. You had a very good level of life and now you have people in the streets without their houses. You have problems in the U.S. All countries have problems, social problems, economic problems, challenges. Venezuela has its own problems, but the problems that we don’t have are the problems of poverty… and culture that we had in the past and have been solved thanks to the effort that we have made over the last year
snip---

MADURO: That is correct. And we have denounced this. Capitalism works in this manner. In Venezuela we are overcoming a capitalism that is dependent solely on rent, and that was very harmful for the exchange rate. I can give you a list. Very soon we are going to publish the list of the owner of companies, capitalists, that stole the money, the dollars, to, that we gave them to meet the needs, and they took the dollars and took it to the US. They have big mansions in the US. And we denounce that. They consider themselves political people, prisoners, etc. But I can tell you this, as a framework of question, because you are overwhelmed by information and you are in anguish with so much information. I can tell you this. over the last years, Venezuela has had... over the last 15 years, a process of expansion. We went from a GDP of 90 billion dollars to a GDP of 400 billion dollars, including last year. We were the target of economic war, because the right-wing sectors in Venezuela they thought that since President Chavez had died is was the end of the revolution. They started an operation to destroy our economy. And we have maintained even last year a programme of growth, of protection, Venezuela has…
snip---
MADURO: I can tell you something very simple. Go to the streets, talk to the workers… Our children have public and free education guaranteed. In the United States, did you have a public education for the children or the youth in the US? No. Our people have public health guaranteed free of charge. Did you have that in the US? Our people have the higher minimum wage in the whole of Latino America. Our people have housing through a special process. Guaranteed housing we have given, and as soon as I finish this conversation we’re going to a special show of a Venezuelan housing programme. We’re going to deliver 600,000 housing to people. There are going to be 3 million housing units to solve the deficit. Of the 180 million dollars that we have received over the last decades, we have invested 65% of the oil rent in education, housing, food, culture. It’s another (inaudible). That’s what I told you when we started. Try to understand in the US. Try to understand a little bit that here we are building a different social economic model, different from yours. Try to open your mind to the dialogue of culture, of civilization. Try to understand what we are doing here is different.

Read more: http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/07/full-transcript-nicolas-maduro/
 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
2. 49.1% of Venezuelans voted against Maduro, and that was before the shortages and
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:59 AM
Mar 2014

hardship became endemic. Things have gotten significantly worse since Mr. Maduro came into office. The VZ government is clearly doing something fundamentally wrong, and that something is pretty evident to people learned in economics.

The problem of product shortages has been identified as the inability for producers to import raw materials, which are paid for in dollars. Don't blame the US for this - the US has an unshakable reputation for paying it's bills, despite the huge debt burden that we carry, because we service that debt. The Republicans in the US congress came perilously close to destroying this faith in US currency's with their government shutdowns and hysterics over raising the debt ceiling, but thankfully common sense prevailed.

VZ needs to devalue their currency to reflect it's actual worth. The country's economic output has dropped precipitously, and that metric sets the value of the currency in the global markets. Producers are simply unable to purchase raw materials using worthless Bolivars.

Further, the VZ government spent lavishly during a period of reduced oil prices, on which nearly their entire economy depends. While that plays well with heroic defenders of the poor, the end result is playing out now.

Supporters of the leftist regime there can rant and rave about sabotage and plots, but the simple fact is that is that the economy is being terrible mismanaged. This is going to end badly for the poor there, despite the best intentions of the regime. They cannot disobey fundamental laws of how economies and global markets work and not expect exactly what is happening, to happen.

I'm sure Mr. Maduro has good intentions, but instead of making the reforms needed to avoid a complete catastrophe, he seems to be doubling down. Lucky for him that he has plenty of moral support from useful fools on message boards.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
3. So now you are an economist?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:22 AM
Mar 2014

Last edited Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:36 AM - Edit history (1)

One who claims some theory about how this is not going to work out for the poor. See? There ya go. What the Bolivarian Movement has done is for the poor and it has worked quite well for the poor. Not for the rich, tho. And so the rich did everything they could to defeat the Bolivarian Movement but failed! FAILED. They f'n lost.

You say the US has no hand in this. Well, that's as wrong as anyone could ever say. Why you think that way must be because that is what you pray is true. Well, it's not. The US corps and the government have done plenty to take down the Bolivars. And guess what? They lost the election. The US is putting the economic screws to VZ, because Big Oil wants the VZ oil. Geeez, how many times does that simple truth have to be told?

And then you end up calling us "useful fools". Good gawd damn. Fuck that shit. Who the fuck you think you are calling us names? We support the elected government of VZ who is not a friend of Big Oil but is a friend to the poor, and that has raised the poor way higher than ever. And you call us useful fools?

Look, you made gobs of money designing useless shit. Why not just fade away and leave the poor alone? Do us all a favor.

ChangoLoa

(2,010 posts)
4. "And so the rich did everything they could to defeat the Bolivars but failed! FAILED They f'n lost"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:03 AM
Mar 2014

What do you mean? How did they do that?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
5. It is called a campaign
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:13 AM
Mar 2014

What? You think they didn't raise funds, buy ads and make speeches to win the election?

ChangoLoa

(2,010 posts)
6. What do you mean by "the bolivars"?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:26 AM
Mar 2014

If you put a definite article, the bolivar is the Venezuelan currency.

 

smokey775

(228 posts)
8. He's more of an economist than Maduro is.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:36 AM
Mar 2014

And if Maduro has done such a good job with the poor, then why are the poor joining the protests now?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/20/venezuelas-poor-protests-chavez-revolution

Venezuela's poor join protests as turmoil grips Chávez's revolution


Government claims protests bear the hallmarks of US-backed coup plot led by jailed opposition leader Leopoldo López

The poor neighbourhood of Petare in western Caracas is not an obvious hotbed of anti-government sentiment. In the past, its residents have been among the major beneficiaries of Venezuela's public health and education campaigns, and an economic policy that resulted in one of the sharpest falls in inequality in the world.

But as demonstrations sweep several major cities, even the people of Petare have taken to the streets to protest again surging inflation, alarming murder rates and shortages of essential commodities.

Jorge Farias, a self-employed motorcycle taxi driver, once voted for the late president Hugo Chávez, but this week he joined opposition rallies
.

Yes, Maduro did win the election, barely, but if things keep going as they are now, then his chances of winning another election are slim to none and slim has already left the station.

 

smokey775

(228 posts)
10. I did read it.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:47 AM
Mar 2014

Venezuelanalysis.com? Really? You are aware that they are nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan govt aren't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelanalysis.com

Get back to me when you have a credible source.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
11. And yours?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:56 AM
Mar 2014

The poor elected Maduro. It sure wasn't the rich. And now the economic screws that the rabid RW US senators are hoping to twist even further have hurt the poor even more.

You do know you and that crazy ass Rubio are in cahoots, right? Your lecturing is pretty much the same as we hear from the RW crazies. Try and find some other friends, would be my advice.

 

smokey775

(228 posts)
12. My source? Already listed,
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 11:10 AM
Mar 2014

but just in case you missed it, here it is again.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/20/venezuelas-poor-protests-chavez-revolution

I'm not denying that the poor elected Maduro, he barely won, and I certainly don't support a coup against the elected govt, elections are the only legitimate way, what I'm saying is that Maduro has so screwed the country up that the next election, he's going to lose, as evidenced by the very people that put him in office are now demonstrating against him.

And the only thing Rubio and company are calling for is visa restrictions against those govt officials that are involved in the violence against the protesters.




 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
13. The 49% who voted against Maduro represents more than 7 million Venezuelans
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:05 PM
Mar 2014

I highly doubt that 7+ million of Venezuelans are all "rich, right-wing fascists"

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
16. Yes, many richer people voted for Maduro.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:16 PM
Mar 2014

Not all rich people are out just for themselves. Plain common sense tells you the majority of people who voted for Maduro were those who think Maduro will lift them and the country up and out of poverty.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. All you need to know, dear fellow
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:10 PM
Mar 2014

Is that Maduro won. He is in office and doing the best he can. Just hope he is very successful.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
14. Talk with any economist who knows Venezuela well and they'll tell you the same thing
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:10 PM
Mar 2014

I find it funny how people who support the Venezuelan regime don't have a basic grasp of how macroeconomics work.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
15. Sure?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:11 PM
Mar 2014

I find that if you had 100 economist in a room you will find one hundred different ways used to describe any complicated economic system. A system such as VZ has, is a very dynamic system with many variables and transmutations.

What has happened in VZ is a corruption of the belief of the value of the VZ currency. Why there is that corruption of belief is a matter for discussion.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
21. The 'useless shit' I designed was computer hard drives,
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 10:24 PM
Mar 2014

which used to cost $50,000 and store a few megabytes. Thanks to selfish idiots like me, really smart people like you can go online on affordable computers and tell us how stupid we are.

So thanks, or something.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
22. "The US is putting the economic screws to VZ, because Big Oil wants the VZ oil."
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 04:27 PM
Mar 2014

Right, 'cause up to now they just pour their oil down the drain.......no, wait, that's not what they do....they send most of it to their biggest export AND import partner, the USA.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
23. Capitalist fascists hate democratic socialists. Complete and total HATE.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 07:24 PM
Mar 2014

The two ideologies, capitalist-fascism/democratic-socialism, are opposites.

This hatred is aroused esp. when democratic socialism wins elections, as in Venezuela.

So, naturally, capitalist fascists suggest that the democratic gov't that they hate is "a dictatorship", and, when not pushing that blatantly false message, they do everything in their power to push a message that the electoral victories of democratic socialism aren't significant.

The only significant elections recognized by capitalist-fascists are those that elect a neo-con over a neo-lib, or vice-versa, in a tweedledum/tweedledee electoral farce. Capitalist-fascists are all too willing to deny political rights to the socialist left. HUAC isn't all that long ago, and those who designed HUAC went on to even more effective works - many of those works being in Latin America.

Capitalist fascists are all too willing to empower a right-wing coup overthrowing a democratic socialist gov't. This has been proven over and over in Latin America, and not just in Latin America. But fascists are never willing to claim actual responsibility. Their denial of history is astounding -- and in the midst of their denial of history, of responsibility, they will spew accusations that democratic socialists are lying.

Even in this forum there are some who are now denying that there was an aborted 2002 coup against the democratically elected gov't of Hugo Chavez -- they say that documentaries like 'The Revolution won't be Televised' are false, made up shit, and they promote a tidier opposition friendly account (the opposition, in this case, being that of the fascist would-be coup plotters). They deny any news or analysis of Venezuela that isn't brought to the world by big money MSM interests - saying that such news and analysis is communist propaganda.

Democratic socialists work toward ideals like single payer health and education systems, systems which *block* private insurance companies, for example, from participation. Democratic socialists work toward single payer medicare and pharmaceutical care, both of which regulate what would otherwise be the most despicable profiteering on the back of desperation. Both of which, when combined, would put impetus behind the creation of community health care clinics, behind prevention, behind the promotion of generic alternatives to costly drugs, etc. All of which would give even the least advantaged, in however numbers, a more equal opportunity to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in a modern world.

Democratic socialists work toward the ideal of community/state ownership (and regulation) of natural resources. The fascist right requires, as a sine quo non of their definition of "reality", of their "reality based world", 100% private ownership of all natural resources, as well as all means of production. Such a "reality", to them, is a natural state (and they have natural gods, as well - like an "invisible hand&quot , and thus they define the object of social democracy out of existence. When in power they do everything that they can to make their fascist system permanent - by systematically stripping the gov't of all power to work toward a common good, in favor of instituting new powers that give the moneyed elite an unimpeded, unregulated hand.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
24. Democratic Socialists don't like or use toilet paper, believe all food should be imported
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 07:55 PM
Mar 2014

are completely dependent on oil, are indifferent to extreme violence, join paramilitary gangs, will lie about absolutely anything and everything, and a extremely prone to pro-chavista propaganda.

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
26. yeah, your post was ridiculous
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 08:26 PM
Mar 2014

All you have to is watch that video of Diosdado Cabello talking about the paint ball guy, or the other thread where he says that the guns from a picture of a US gun shop were seized from the opposition, or that Hugo was inoculated with cancer and tell me whether this government lies or not.


I have yet to see anyone ever here say that there was not coup in Venezuela in 2002.

The problems in the country are result of 15 years of this horrible chavista government. You can talk about an ideal Democratic Socialist government all you want, but that's not what the Ven government is.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
30. As you said?
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:13 PM
Mar 2014

All you're doing is repeating the same garbage over and over again from the propaganda machine and don't admit to the fact that things in Venezuela are bad due to the inept government's poor management of the country. I dare you one day to come down there and live as a civilian for a few weeks, especially in the most pro-government barrio you can find, and see if those living conditions are good enough for you.

It's really sad how this government has made Venezuela so dependent solely on oil revenues, revenues which they get thanks mostly thanks to the US, by the way. What's also sad is that people still try to see this as a conflict driven by political ideology, when it's really just about a nation's people getting tired of the lies and ineptitude of a small group of people in a government which have stolen most of the oil revenue money for themselves. This is no longer about "socialism vs capitalism", this is about a cleptocracy which is doing everything it can to stay in power, even blatantly trample on the constitution. When all those delinquents lose their diplomatic safety net, they'll be judged for high treason for all the unconstitutional acts they committed, and not to mention all the other stuff that I'm sure will come to the surface.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
31. So, you're really, really upset, mondo upset, Marksman_91.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:28 PM
Mar 2014

I suggest that if you want peaceful and substantive change to the benefit of Venezuelans, or the benefit of any people anywhere, you should work at a community service level and get involved in grassroots democratic politics. That the politics ought to be democratic is irreducibly axiomatic. From there, reach out.

I see no point in trying to heat up a situation, to engender violent demonstrations with an intent to foment conditions ripe for a coup to come in and "bring peace and security".

On the other hand you might join the throngs of employees selling Charmin asswipe who're totally appalled by rumors that a Charmin employee hasn't the opportunity to wipe every last Venezuelan ass.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
32. There's really no need for that kind of language
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:30 PM
Mar 2014

It already cost you to be able to write in another thread. I suggest you behave more like a decent human being instead of a troll unless you want to get banned in yet another thread. It's not gonna get you far in life if that's the way you discuss with people.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
33. I'll repeat it then. Since asswipe shortages seem to be on some people's brains.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:40 PM
Mar 2014

I suggest that if you want peaceful and substantive change to the benefit of Venezuelans, or the benefit of any people anywhere, you should work at a community service level and get involved in grassroots democratic politics. That the politics ought to be democratic is irreducibly axiomatic. From there, reach out.

I see no point in trying to heat up a situation, to engender violent demonstrations with an intent to foment conditions ripe for a coup to come in and "bring peace and security".

On the other hand you might join the throngs of employees selling Charmin asswipe who're totally appalled by rumors that a Charmin employee hasn't the opportunity to wipe every last Venezuelan ass.
 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
34. Sometimes labels aren't particularly helpful. The Scandanavian states
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:34 PM
Mar 2014

are socialist democracies, yet they have demonstrated an understanding of economics and market forces and used this understanding to compete in the global marketplace with great success and better the lives of all their citizens. Their leadership has performed ethically and within the boundaries of human decency.

Venezuela is also a socialist democracy, with a duly elected leadership, but that leadership has badly mismanaged their economy, vilified the productive and ownership class, and in general performed quite poorly, and they can (and will) be tossed out in the next elections.

See how labels fail here? I gave two examples of socialist democracies that just could not be more different, yet you find it more useful to rant and froth over capitalism vs socialism, which is completely irrelevant to the situation in VZ. The issue there is one of competence and integrity, not one ideology versus another. It doesn't matter whether the state or the private sector owns the natural resources if neither one can figure out how to balance their income stream with their expenditures.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
35. No. You only know how to smear. You have no argument.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:42 PM
Mar 2014

You pretend that you wish a level of wealth equal to the Scandinavian countries, for Venezuela - and you use the fact that there's a long way to go as a cudgel. Nothing more.

You, and by that I mean *all of you* who're on this anti-Chavez, anti-Bolivarian campaign, have no interest in history. Especially so, you have no interest in recent history of US intervention in Latin America.


 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
36. No interest in history? Not so. I'm on record in many postings as being completely and utterly
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:46 PM
Mar 2014

against any US mischief in VZ or any other state for that matter. I'm aware of the long history of meddling in that region, and that our meddling has without exception made things worse for the people who live there.

I think you're mistaking honest observation for hostility. I wish no harm to anyone in VZ, and have no axe to grind, but I find it interesting that otherwise intelligent people go all gooey over the romantic notion of the heroic socialist leader beating back the evil capitalists, all the while completely blind to any and all failings of the leadership. It's so much easier to blame nebulous outside forces and ignore the reality on the ground.

Frankly, it's baffling.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
39. Funny how you respond to civility with rudeness, without fail.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:58 AM
Mar 2014

You always seem to reach a point where personal attacks take over from reasoned response.

I'm not offended personally, but it says a lot.

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
41. You keep reducing these discussions to personal attacks and you'll face the banammer
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:11 PM
Mar 2014

I honestly expected you'd quiet down your pottymouth after getting banned in 2 threads now. Guess it's hard for you to counter any arguments in an intelligent manner since, well, you have no arguments at all. Your ever-increasing desperation amuses everyone in this forum, especially since it's quite hilariously backfiring on you.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
42. Well, y'know - you're engaging in a personal attack.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:14 PM
Mar 2014

And perhaps you could've alerted on your colleague who called me an "***wipe* (with the asterisks!), rather than on me for mentioning that the same wonderful fellow forgot to mention "***wipe" (but I didn't use asterisks! me bad!) when listing the commodities that Venezuela was short of. On DU, asterisks seem to make all the difference, context makes none.

Since we're discussing your personal attack on me, let's look at your "hopefully he'll be banned", post. That doesn't portray an attitude open to discussing differences. It portrays your objective in alerting on my every post. So alert away, marksman_91. Since you have nothing else.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
38. I think it is very telling,
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 12:34 AM
Mar 2014

that the line:
"I'm aware of the long history of meddling in that region, and that our meddling has without exception made things worse for the people who live there."
is used to 'cover' so-called "US mischief". Paving way for the US finger.

Surreal...

Oele

(128 posts)
40. Would it be possible for anybody in any way, to express disagreement with the Venezuelan government
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 06:07 AM
Mar 2014

without being portrayed as a "coup monger" by you?

delrem

(9,688 posts)
43. Not if the intent is to foment violence, to make way for a coup,
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:16 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)

following the same leaders and plan as has been tried before.

Sorry if that bothers you.

eta: I didn't use the term 'coup' in that post. I did, however, mention the alternative that Flatulo and, apparently, you wish to use instead: "US mischief".

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