The Russians are not on the crusade of the Social Justice Warriors. They don't care what form the Venezuelan government takes, or how their economy is structured. They make deals based on their actual interest, as we claim to do but don't.

They sell things for cash. They don't place a "democracy" tag on the sale. They don't foment revolution as part of the sale. They don't make "regime change" part of the deal. For them it's simple. "We've got weapons, you've got oil. We trade and then you have weapons and we have oil. Done deal and nobody fights a war over it." Smart.

We, on the other hand, try to steal the oil by force, invasion and occupation, regime change and "spreading democracy" which leads to eithteen years of endless war and chaos and ... wait for it ... no oil. Stupid.

So they have a "Russia First" policy? We know the money in Russia goes to the oligarchs & dictator. Maybe we should elect someone to institute an "America First" policy so all the money can flow to our oligarchs & dictator...then we could buy oil from Saudi Arabia & sell them weapons, despite them funding the 9-11 terrorists, dismembering journalists, etc. That's "smart"?

I hope I'm misreading your intention.

Or am I misinterpreting complaints about inequality?

And I cited no "intention" in my comment, merely observation.

I thought you were saying that it is "smart" to just make the equivalent to international "payday loans" to dictators/shady countries (versus creating endless wars in a misguided effort to steal oil). I'd prefer neither. I definitely wouldn't want to sell weapons to dictators, including Saudi Arabia, that may end up being used against us someday...just to make a quick buck. Eventually Saudi Arabia or Venezuela could do something so repugnant that even Republicans would feel like the U.S. should do something militarily.

If Russia wants to deal with creepers, fuck them and I hope it blows up in their faces. The U.S.--even now--has some moral superiority, IMHO, and should stand for something internationally.

What loans? They have oil, and the Russians are trading weapons for the oil. They attach no ideology to what is a financial transaction. How is that not smart? It is pragmatic.

You wouldn't want to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia? We are doing precisely that, and have been for many years, for cash. How is that any different than selling weapons to Venezuela?

Moral superiority? Because we engage in "regime change" by bragging about overthrowing the accepted leader of another nation? If a Muslim nation bombed Washington to kill Obama for the death of Ghadaffi, we would think that nation had moral justification for that?

Payday loans are short, quick infusions of cash to keep someone afloat...while at the same time screwing them over long-term. Precisely what Russia is doing by grabbing control of the oil. I wouldn't want their kind of "help" unless I was a desperate dictator trying to stay alive.

I know we sell weapons to S. Arabia---I was dropping some sarcasm earlier. It's f$#Kd up b/c they're a terrible regime. It's actually worse than selling stuff to Venezuela, because they do support terrorists.

And some of these dictators that Trump/Putin cozy up to are not exactly the "accepted" leaders of their countries. Trump/Putin took power in the US in 2016, so I don't even "accept" Trump/Putin as my leader.

No doubt we've done some terrible, terrible stuff in the world (arming Bin Laden to fight Russia, cozying up to S. Arabia, etc.) but I do believe that we stand for freedom, some modicum of order, and general safety & opportunity, albeit eroding as we speak. That alone is why people walk a thousand miles in the desert with little kids in tow to get here. The transfer of wealth to the top 1% is what will be our downfall, b/c they'll do whatever it takes to keep bleeding us dry (including fixing elections/gerrymandering/voter suppression). Fortunately we are still in a position to try to do something about that.

I was asking what they have to do with Russia selling weapons to Venezuela. Russia has weapons. Venezuela has oil. Russia sends the weapons to Venezuela. Venezuela sends the oil to Russia. The deal is done. Completed. No more payments to be made. No debt created. No interest accrued. What does that have to do with payday loans?

How does it make sense to say that "we've done some terrible, terrible stuff" and at the same time that "we stand for freedom" and for "general safety & opportunity" all in the same sentence? That is just gibberish.

that started all this? LOL. Venezuela is giving up control of a good portion of their oil industry (49% of Citgo), not selling some oil...so the deal is not "done." They're giving up the goose, not just the golden eggs. Also, as the article states, Russia is establishing a "western outpost," and landing nuclear-capable bombers there to prove it.

So...again...the deal is not done after the Russian tankers pull away. Venezuela now has Russian weapons for their own forces, a Russian outpost, and Russia can literally drain them until oil runs out. Seems like Venezuela is getting screwed long term by a dictator for a short-term gain by their own dictator. Kinda payday loan-ish.

I can see that you think the United States is a terrible place, but I haven't given up hope. And the immigrants that I know and talk to have said they come here for safety, freedom, education, democracy (what's left of it).

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)

The original poster provided everything they thought I needed to know.

The topic in this discussion, however, went into lalaland from the start. You wouldn't want us to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, claim that was merely sarcasm, then claim that even though we have done terrible, terrible things we stand for all that is good and decent.

And while I'm sure you know and talk to a lot of illegal immigrants in Delaware (now that was sarcasm), the ones that have been interviewed by the media who are currently on their way here have said, more than 90% of the time, nothing about coming here for "safety, freedom, education, democracy," they have said they are coming here because there are no jobs where they came from and they are looking for jobs.

...couldn't it? You clearly know everything about everything--even Delaware!--and present it in such an enlightening way to your fellow posters here on DU.

Thank you for all your valuable insights--I'll sleep better now knowing that it's OK for Russian nuclear bombers to be parked in Venezuela, overseeing the takeover of Venezuelan oil. Maybe Trump will build a wall at the end of the airfield, with Venezuela paying for it, to protect us. I'm sure your boys Trump/Putin have no ill will...and neither would Saudi Arabia; them buying up refineries in Texas in 2017 is also nothing to worry about.

It was a real pleasure discussing this all with you (that may be sarcasm--you'll have to let me know)! BYE

The United States can be accused of a lot of things, and rightfully so. HOWEVER, the US has nothing to do with the wholesale raping of Venezuelan natural and economic resources at the hands of the Chavists who are desperate to stay in power; and the Russians, who are only too happy to bend Maduro over and give him a good hard "rogering".

Putin wants two things: The first is to thumb his nose at Uncle Sam in his own back yard. Putin is the noxious little shit who lives next door, who is always picking on your sister, teasing your dog and putting cat shit in your mailbox. You know its him. You've seen him do it. But he is savvy enough to stay far enough out of reach that you can't pummel the little fucker. So Putin sends money and arms to prop up a half assed Marxist despot in Venezuela. He sends his "nuclear capable bombers" (the last of the few that still fly) every 5 years to taunt the US. All of this to be the pebble in Uncle Sams shoe

The second thing Putin wants is his money back. He has a lot of angry Russian companies (banks, businesses, investors, etc) who have sunk $BILLION$ into the corrupt Chavista pockets*. And if Putin loves anything more than taunting Uncle Sam, it's staying in power. He remains ONLY because the oligarchs in Russia fund his antics.

The Russians are plenty happy to fuck over Venezuela. But, when the SHTF and Chavists are hanging from street posts and bridges, Putin will be right there (along with Uncle Sam) trying to insert his puppet, so that he can continue thumbing his nose at the US and hopefully, get the next flunky to repay the debts owed to Russia.

*Chavez useless daughter, Maria Gabriela is worth over $4 billion. I wonder what she did as a low level UN diplomat to amass THAT fortune?

Hmm???

There are many, but just to pick one. "And if Putin loves anything more than taunting Uncle Sam, it's staying in power."

Putin was elected for a specific term and will not run for reelection after that term. He has made several references in speeches to the status after his term expires and when he will no longer be head of state. He has no more love of staying in power than did Barack Obama, whose run for reelection was in no way evil or dictatorial.

The rest of your rant is no more accurate than is your accusation of the dictatorial ambitions of Vladimir Putin.

Don't bother to engage me in any sort of name calling contest, because I do not intend to prolong this discussion. I am done.

Tell us all what you know that is going on in Venezuelan, oh sage?

Though he is an American citizen now. Very educated, with a Ph.D. I asked him about Russia, and to my surprise, defends Russia and Putin (and all previous Soviet/Russian leadership from the Tsars up to today)

According to him, in most of Russia the worldview is that Russia has NEVER been an aggressor against anyone, and (prepare yourself...) Russia has been very patient with the world when it comes to all of its territory that it lost over the years. According to him, all of Finland, half of Sweden, northern Norway, all of the Ukraine and Belarus, the Baltics, half of Europe, most of Asia (including all of Mongolia and Manchuria) as well as all of Japan north of Honshu, (Hokkaido) Persia and Turkey are by "rights" Russian territory. Oh... and Alaska. Any and all Russian past military expeditions are the result of their neighbors instigation, without exception.

As far as Russian leaders (past and present) and their ruthlessness? Needed... as Russia is full of traitors and counter-Revolutionary types who would see Russia become a vassal state to the EU. "It's a shame, but this sort of thing needs to be done." He is totally dismissive of the argument that it could be him and his family being purged. "Never happen. They know who the traitors are. But, most of the traitors have fled to Israel and England."

I'd like to think this guy is an isolated nut job, but I am not so sure. The guy is a huge fan of Trotsky. Loves to quote him, especially his "Root out the counterrevolutionaries without mercy" bit.