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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 10:43 AM Mar 2019

For all the Maduro-apologists: In what way could Venezuela POSSIBLY solve this problem on its own?

Venezuela currently has a President who was elected in a pseudo-democratic election where opposition-candidates were not allowed to run.

Venezuela currently has a Supreme-Court stacked with Maduro-cronies, that doubles as a judicative organ and as a legislative organ.

Venezuela currently has a so-called Constitutional National Assembly that is supposed to write a new constitution that would end the political dead-lock, but instead it is unconstitutionally conducting oversight and unconstitutionally passing bills.

Venezuela currently has THREE legislative bodies: The Supreme Court, the Constitutional National Assembly and the National Assembly. And the only legislative body that is actually constitutionally legitimate, the National Assembly, has been declared illegitimate by the Supreme Court.

The Maduro regime has its own extralegal, paramilitary forces, the "colectivos", who attack opponents of the Maduro-regime with legal impunity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colectivo_(Venezuela)



So, for all the who people who love to complain that Venezuela should be left alone, here's your chance:

What can the people of Venezuela do to end this crisis, to restore law&order, to end the political fighting and to launch economic reforms?




Can they sue?
Nope. The Supreme Court would rule against anything that threatens the rule of Maduro.

Can they pass bills?
Nope. The only legislative body that actually represents the will of the people and was elected in a free democratic election has been declared illegitimate.

Can they vote for somebody else?
Nope. In 2017 Maduro manipulated the electronic voting-machines to get his party 100% of the vote and in 2018 no opposition-candidates were even allowed to run.

Can they protest?
Well, they can try. If they don't mind getting teargassed, shot and beaten up by colectivos.

Can they violently overthrow Maduro?
Nope. Because if Maduro goes, the military loses its control over the economy.





You love to moan and lament how the US should leave Venezuela alone. Here's your chance to actually post your own ideas instead of trash-talking other peoples' ideas.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
For all the Maduro-apologists: In what way could Venezuela POSSIBLY solve this problem on its own? (Original Post) DetlefK Mar 2019 OP
Pure class those colectivos GatoGordo Mar 2019 #1
"legitimate violence is exercised by the state alone" FBaggins Mar 2019 #2
I agree that they can't solve the immediate crisis Perrenial Voter Mar 2019 #3
The problem is not a lack of money. The problem is an unwillingness to reform. DetlefK Mar 2019 #4
Can't happen GatoGordo Mar 2019 #5
The could learn some lessons from what Cuba did Perrenial Voter Mar 2019 #9
The problems in Venezuela are institutional. GatoGordo Mar 2019 #12
I agree 100% with your observations Perrenial Voter about food production... MRubio Mar 2019 #6
"US refusal to repatriot Citgo profits" GatoGordo Mar 2019 #7
As I've said elsewhere about the new sanctions........ MRubio Mar 2019 #8
Who are these "Maduro apologists"? Miguel M Mar 2019 #10
The mods don't like us naming names GatoGordo Mar 2019 #11
BUT CHILE 1973!!!!! lol nt EX500rider Mar 2019 #13
 

GatoGordo

(2,412 posts)
1. Pure class those colectivos
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 11:01 AM
Mar 2019
https://in-venezuela.com/2015/11/22/11-22-15-colectivo-attacks-rally/



But to the apologists, these armed thugs (paid and ACTIVELY armed by Chavismo) are only "community organizers" who do "peacekeeping".

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10499

Q. What is the true relationship between collectives and firearms?

A. The reality of it is that there is no identification between the collectives and firearms. I believe that both the commander Chavez, and president Nicolas Maduro each made their position unequivocally clear; any person who raises weapons in alleged defense of the Bolivarian Revolution is out of line, and outside the limits of the law. The monopoly of legitimate violence is exercised by the state alone, as a democratic obligation. We have to make an effort not to allow these false judgments to take root, because collectives are not synonymous with weapons and violence, but with organization and grassroots movement, culture, and of working alongside the Bolivarian government to resolve concrete problems in the communities.

Jajajajajajaja!
 

Perrenial Voter

(173 posts)
3. I agree that they can't solve the immediate crisis
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 12:05 PM
Mar 2019

in the short-term, because there are external factors shaping it over which they have no control: debt to China and other countries; oil prices; US refusal to repatriot Citgo profits. The government there, on the other hand, is responsible for corruption and mismanagement of the economy, and, in the long run, they will have to address these. The first priority should be making the country food self-sufficient not only to help the balance of trade but to make the country less vulnerable to outside manipulation.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
4. The problem is not a lack of money. The problem is an unwillingness to reform.
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 12:09 PM
Mar 2019

Chavez-socialism has failed. Venezuela needs an economic reform. I'm no economist, I don't know what kind of reform, but anybody can see that it needs SOME kind of economic reform.

Except that Maduro cannot introduce reforms, because then he would have to admit that Chavez-socialism is not the best system ever and that would ultimately delegitimize his own power.

 

GatoGordo

(2,412 posts)
5. Can't happen
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 12:11 PM
Mar 2019

Chavez nationalized most all of the productive food industries and promptly bankrupted them. Venezuela used to export food. Now it can't feed its own.

 

Perrenial Voter

(173 posts)
9. The could learn some lessons from what Cuba did
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 07:20 PM
Mar 2019

during the "special period" when the Soviet Union collapsed and their subsidized oil disappeared. The had undertaken American-style agriculture with massive carbon inputs for fertilizer and pesticides. This was a big, state-run industry, operated much like private agribusiness in the US. But they figured out that to be self-sufficient they would have to return to something more akin to organic farming, without using massive machinery and carbon-inputs. They learned that this was done better on a small scale, so land was parcelled to co-ops and families, and their farms out-performed the state-run organization. It helped that some permaculture specialists came from New Zealand to help them reform their agriculture, but the took measures that were effective and could be in any country with cultivatable land.

 

GatoGordo

(2,412 posts)
12. The problems in Venezuela are institutional.
Fri Mar 8, 2019, 06:26 AM
Mar 2019

In perhaps the most fertile land on the planet. And a LOT of it that is available.
Venezuela has a huge campesino community. So it isn't the lack of land or willing laborers.

So... what could the problem be?

Chavez promised these prospective campesino voters land. But instead of giving them their own land from vast tracts of arable, undeveloped land, he promised them someone elses land. Land that was already being farmed or used as ranch land. (The Chavistas took that cunning plan from the Lenin/Mao playbook.)

So these farmers had "land". But they couldn't farm it because they didn't have equipment, seed, fertilizer and every other thing a farmer needs to turn a profit. It turns out that Chavez ruined all of the equipment, seed and fertilizer industry in Venezuela by his mass nationalizations, and these things needed to be purchased overseas... at market rates, not at the subsidized rates in Chavismo's FantasyLand. (see Agropatria) Naturally, Chavez promised them all of these things...

Chavistas think that food appears by simply willing it to. Maduro say, "I'm injecting $4 billion into the farming economy!" And with great fanfare, not a thin dime gets injected into the farm economy...

MRubio

(285 posts)
6. I agree 100% with your observations Perrenial Voter about food production...
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 12:32 PM
Mar 2019

....the irony being that Chavez virtually killed the country's ability to produce its own food. If you'd like me to explain how he did it, I can.

The nail in the coffin was Chavez's expropriation of a national company called AgroIsleña. Without a doubt, this was one of the finest agriculturally-related operations anywhere in the world. The company's products, equipment, services, and personnel were world-class. They even offered credit for the planting of crops, all of the seed, fertilizer, and chemicals the producer needed, technicians to help solve problems on the farm, and would buy the crop at harvest, paying within 30 days.

Within a year or two of its expropriation, the company was nothing more than a shell of its former self. Last time I passed in front of AgroPatria in Punta de Mata, all I saw were empty pallets.

Last year's corn harvest here in my area probably didn't reach 5% of what it once was. Think about that.

 

GatoGordo

(2,412 posts)
7. "US refusal to repatriot Citgo profits"
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 02:22 PM
Mar 2019

The repatriation of CITGO profits is a new sanction, less than a month old. Maduro has had every opportunity to spend those profits the way he saw fit. But instead of buying food and medicine (a perpetual promise to El Pueblo) he buys tear gas, anti-aircraft missiles and ammunition for his henchmen.

CITGO and PDVSA reports DIRECTLY to Manuel Quevedo, a General in the FANB? That all profits are funneled through them first? (an argument can be made that Cuba gets the first skim)

All food distribution is handled by the FANB?

The distribution of medical supplies is controlled by the same entities?

Venezuela has NO MONEY, NO FOOD AND NO MEDICINE.

Who to blame? (see below!)

The Chavistas blame everyone but themselves. No running water. No reliable electricity. No food. No medicine. No industry. No imports. No exports. The list is endless, and always someone else to blame.

https://www.newsweek.com/sun-causes-venezuelas-power-outages-maduro-ally-963209

A political ally of Venezuela’s strongman Nicolás Maduro has blamed the Earth’s position in relation to the sun for the country’s ongoing blackouts.

“It is because we are very close to the Sun … while the rest of the world is cold, it is hot here, that just makes the situation more serious,” Lisandro Cabello, government secretary in the state of Zulia, said in a press conference. He blamed the summer solstice for the country’s electricity problems, The Times reported on Wednesday.

Venezuela, a country that is grappling with a major economic crisis, has been suffering power cuts for several months. According to workers at the country’s nationalized electricity company, Corpoelec, the problem is actually due to years of poor maintenance accompanied by rampant theft.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/04/10/in-venezuela-a-daily-struggle-for-the-basic-necessities-of-life/?utm_term=.e23b75b5e810

MRubio

(285 posts)
8. As I've said elsewhere about the new sanctions........
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 04:14 PM
Mar 2019

........we've seen little difference in the before and after phase of these new sanctions. That's to say, things continue on pretty much as they were before.......zero drop-off in what one can find to eat around here.

What that means to me is that it would appear that whatever was being spent by Maduro beforehand to import the food and other needs of the people of Veneuzela, hasn't been reduced because of the new sanctions. I suspect therefore that what has been reduced is the amount of money being stolen off the top by the corrupt regime and its cronies.

It would appear that THEY are finally suffering, at least for now.

 

Miguel M

(234 posts)
10. Who are these "Maduro apologists"?
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 07:34 PM
Mar 2019

Grow some balls and name them, rather than a smear directed at anyone who differs from you in approach.


 

GatoGordo

(2,412 posts)
11. The mods don't like us naming names
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 07:39 PM
Mar 2019

So we busy ourselves hinting and insinuating.

But if you feel inclined to tell us about every Chavismo victory I'd love to hear all about it.

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