approach to social change), then we have to start a serious effort to hit hobnob, and not just add another boycott to a phonebook full of others. You know you succeed when many big outfits start distancing themselves from the cretins by taking progressive actions on insurance and fair play for women.

But get serious about it. South Africa serious.

and more effective than a quiet boycott.

Keep it in the social media and never stop associating their name with this.

They will pay dearly.

this is what happens when we feminists lose.

"Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

This is precisely why I say gather your allies, like those on DU, rather than push them away with petty stuff that does NOT rise to the level of a really major issue.

The catastrophe of women being told, once in a while, to smile is not really in the same league although it may be a fun thing to throw around on Discussion boards in order to kill time. But it is NOT an effective way to change minds. On the other hand, here is an issue where all your Progressive bothers and sisters agree.

Silly of me not to understand that.

Hope you had a happy 4th...

Didn't you start that exchange with a snide "I told you so/
We were right" remark?
Of course, unnecessary. I've always supported feminist/equality
causes, particularly reproductive freedom, and I think most people
here probably do too (Though, it seems they sometimes don't
express it well). So, other than to stir something up, I don't
know why anyone would post that when most people here already
agree.

I even agree with Bonobo's point that all the petty bickering
overshadows important things, like this (The entire SC decision
and it's ramifications well beyond HL). Probably could have done
it with more tact, in fact, I'd say he probably stooped to the level of
bickering the way he did it. I guess that goes with the point though.
Why is everybody sweating the small stuff when actual important
things are happening?

Low hanging fruit I guess.

The the reply, "Mansplaining."
I mean, what is that? Come on, I don't want to knock DU too much,
but pretty much every OP on this site is some form of self righteous
(deserved or not) "This is what I think and why I'm right, also why you
should think that too. Oh, and I'm awesome, give me pats on the back!"

It's the ridiculous tribalism that just bugs the shit out of me.
When the whole situation is like that, is it really any wonder that
laws and rulings, like the SC HL ruling, can happen?

As to actual problems. I really don't know how to combat idiotic justices,
but I do know I haven't bought anything in Hobby Lobby for years.
Small, I know, but hell, if they are too proud to compromise their
"morals" then I assume they are too proud to accept my heathen
money. Not much, but I've probably gotten 5-10 other people, friends
and such, to not shop there too, back when HL first started complaining,
or maybe it was something else they had done. On this individual issue,
that's about all I can personally do.

life before the women's movement changed everything. The women's movement has been and still is extremely important to me. As such, I suppose I migrated toward like minded people and I now have a family of feminists and pro-feminist men. There is a marked respect for one another in my family and extended family. The men would not even remotely be capable of mansplaining as we understand the term here. They are caregivers for their children, do housework without being asked and most important: they LISTEN to women. And their kids are raised that way, too!

You see, women are trying to tell folks here why these issues are important...and what seems to you as small stuff is really about a spectrum that needs to be examined from one end to the next, because it is all related. Seen in that context (which is not unique to women since I know men who understand it too), these "minor" issues take on a new meaning.

Which is why I am surprised and disappointed to discover men here on DU who cast our issues as being insubstantial or minor ones. I wonder "how can they not understand?" because I am surrounded by so many men who understand it in their very bones. There is no need to even discuss it...it is a given. And it doesn't mean the women are disrespectful of men. It is mutual respect. Which is what feminism and humanism is all about.

I refer to the bickering (and point keeping, tribalism, obnoxious back patting attitudes etc)
that can be found throughout the site and beyond that really do nothing to promote equality.

I don't consider mutual respect ("mansplaining", btw, not particularly respectful), equal responsibility
(caregiving, family life, etc), or listening (I assume you mean respecting opinions etc) "minor" or
in anyway radical. There are probably people here who do, but not me.

My complaint is absolutely NOT about women (and men) who are here to share important issues.
It is about the descent into internet, backwater idiocy....all around. There are people everywhere
engaged in it. Please don't put words in my mouth to make me look bad by assuming I think the
issues are "minor." I really didn't specify what I thought was "minor," the only thing I specified at
all was that I strongly support reproductive rights.

I am disappointed with a lot of people on DU too, among them men yes, men in this very group yes.
If I personally have cast a female concern as minor which you hold dear, I'm afraid you've imagined it,
because I don't believe (but could be wrong) that I ever have. Though who knows, I would certainly
never assume that all women hold all issues to identical ranks and standards of importance.

(As a note, I would hazard to guess that Bonobo's and my own interpretation of "minor", or any other
person on this board and beyond for that matter, are different. I don't generally extrapolate the
opinions of one person by association with another or others.)

critical of what you said. And I don't disagree about all women holding all issues to identical ranks and standards of importance. Depending on where a woman or man is in their lives there are always different ranks of importance. It's just life.

I really don't see the tribalism you find here, but then I stay out of lots of fights on DU because I don't want to be sucked into a vortex of argumentation over extended periods of time. For one thing, this is the Internet, fer gawd's sake. I just can't take the Internet too seriously as a personal matter in my life.

What I DID see here in the past few days was feminists' disgust and justifiable anger over the SCOTUS rulings. That's when standing together really counts. Could it be that the "back patting" you see here was actually meant as supportive?

There is definitely a tribalism as I see it, but you are right, much of it is because
this is the internet (both a marvel and a sewer of humanity. It's complicated).

No, believe me, SCOTUS angst (no, disgust) is right. I'm concerned about the
ruling as well. I'm all for whatever religious freedom, but come on, I thought
America had some standards.

Back patting. No not that, and it's all around.
It's hard to say, it's part of the tribalism. When people get praised for no other
reason than insulting someone with differing opinions. I mean, at least people
ought to attempt a genuine discussion prior to shutting down, and many people
do. However, many people don't. I don't know, it goes hand in hand with simply
disingenuous discussion, were people only seem to start discussion with people
for the purpose of "defeating" them, scoring points, getting those pats on the back...
even if the discussion really had no substance. It's like neither side of most topics
is operating in good faith in regards to the other side. People should be fostering discussion,
genuine argumentative disagreement, and respect. Maybe I frequent too many tense
topics, but there doesn't ever seem to be much of that, unless of course, they already
agree.

Sad day when we only respect those we agree with.

quoting John Donne's "no man is an island" we are all ultimately vulnerable to the forces of intolerance and hatred by a determined right wing in this country. As I see it, ultimately feminism is humanism and vice versa; they are inextricably linked together. It is not a zero sum game that if feminists "win" then men "lose."

I've known a few feminists who I didn't like, but it had nothing to do with their feminism...it had to do with them as people...they just weren't very likable for reasons having to with personal style. Mostly, my feminist friends are wonderful. But there are always those people we just won't get along with.

The women I have the most trouble liking are those who say they believe in gender equality and then say things like "a woman boss is worse than a male boss." Somehow they think women bosses are harder to get along with than men bosses and I really don't know where they comes from. I have had only one very difficult female boss and a host of wonderful female bosses over my long life/career. The difficult one, I found out later, was bipolar and often skipped her meds. I had to leave that job and get another she was so unbearable at times and I couldn't stand the uncertainty of how she would be on a given day.

Of course, I've been retired now for 10 years so my work experience is quite dated. The most difficult thing for me to accept is women who have been mentored by other women and brought along and then say they are not feminists. I don't understand that.