I honestly don't believe the vast majority of those who call themselves feminists hate men. I think some just hate having their ideas challenged and when someone does that using condescension, bitter sarcasm or some other abrasive rhetorical device, the effects are highly predictable. I've just decided I don't need those tools of rhetoric so much anymore. They are overused here already. I'd like to see more women here. I think their input on these issues is valuable, even if I may not agree. Everyone deserves a seat at the table when gender issues are being discussed.

take it to extremes, and some have some grave emotional injury which shapes their thoughts, and some are just plain nuts for no good reason at all. Most, fortunately, are just good people who see a wrong that needs to be righted, but the usual rules of conversation and debate here are confounded.

Here we are, trapped in this anonymous cage where we have none of the cues or balances we have in real life that moderate behavior. We don't even know if that strident man-hating feminist is a woman or some guy laughing his ass off at how he's got us going.

You found a way out of that hole you were living in, but how many others here are in the same pain, and how many of those haven't found their way out yet?

It's tough to judge those you know. Here, we are just judging words, and we're not doing that very well.

I do it because the social framework which they promote is harmful to my sons.

It's not about me, or about you.

Re: I'm a nice guy.

"Nice guy" is supposedly code word for secretly scummy, creepy dude who tries to be friends with a woman in an effort to have sex with them.

I was being somewhat snarky. Sorry 'bout that.

Just didn't know what you meant. I'm kind of naive about this stuff.

if you posted in one of those rape threads last weekend. Seemed like a feeding frenzy, with males who weren't seen as displaying the proper amount of deference, as the main course..

This kind of thing out of the mens group, i.e. discussions about DU, DU members, or other groups on DU.

There will, hopefully, be some statements coming out of both groups in the near future regarding this and our mutual desire to find common ground.

I understand that one subtext of your message - "don't get sucked into silly fights" gels very well with the approach many of the members of this group are trying to take and will continue to try to take, to improve the tone on DU.

However, characterizing other members if the site as "man hating" is no more helpful than when broad brush characterizations are made about "misogynists in the mens group", etc.

I do not believe that many, if any, people on this site genuinely "hate men", any more than i believe there are secret enclaves of woman-hating. I *do* think, in no small measure, the strife and drama has been exacerbated by trolls who, for personal or political reasons, enjoy stirring the DU pot. That is not to say there aren't genuine people with genuine disagreements. But i think most of the genuine people have watched the drama of the past few weeks and, at this point, genuinely desire to ratchet down the fighting.

With that in mind, I'm going to ask those inclined to participate in these threads, here, to help start to move the focus of this group back towards "discuss issues of interest to men" and away from discussing DU.

I will reiterate what I said before about the GD rape threads- i did not like the tone of broad brushing or collective gender guilt which came across in some posts. I am skeptical of sociological narratives which involve terms like "the rape culture".

However, it became apparent to me that we do clearly have fellow DU members who have been victimized by sexual assault, and i was moved by their bravery in speaking out- i was also deeply impressed and inspired by the ability of some of these individuals to try - even in some fairly egregious circumstances - to empathize even with posters who probably didn't deserve that much understanding of their egregious behavior.

So personally i'm trying to muster as much empathy and understanding on that particular topic, as i can. That is my top priority.

It seems like every thread here is just a volley in some long-standing civil war. I think it would be nice to come into this board and not find that very post is a comment on something said on some other forum. I guess the Meta forum is the place to duke it out.

Overall, I "don't have a dog in this hunt, as the expression goes. I'm mostly a casual reader/ poster here. And as I'd probably easy to surmise, I have my own set of problems which are bigger to me than this issue. I'm just coming from this place where I really don't want judgment from others because of who am, based on gender or whatever. If I had done something wrong, that would be another story. I already have really struggled with the concept of being diagnosed as bipolar at age 47, and the implications of that for my future in a society that isn't always very understanding and tolerant.

Frankly, I want to apologize for the fact that my post was way TMI, too. I find I struggle with the fact that my inhibitions are down, so I often say or write things, only later to question them.

So, I am going to edit it away - that way the thread will still be open for follow-up comments instead of being locked.

Thanks anyway for listening, guys. It helps.

It just happened along at a time when I needed to make that particular point. Honestly, if anyone's been guilty of the feud perpetuating, and meta-creeping in here, it's yours truly.

So you writing that made perfect sense. I just know that there is a consensus to try to move things in a different direction around here, and this seemed like a good place to bring it up.

As for the TMI part- dont worry about it. I'm real sorry to hear you've been having a tough time of it, lately.

And thanks for the kind thoughts.

i have read your posts for a while now. i know you have been walking a tough road. good luck to you, and wish you the best.

It's been like some real-life version of Survivor with a helping of Lost on the side - they kept trying to vote me off the island and some really weird shit happened.

I just keep sitting here thinking of song lyrics I can relate to - "Don't let the bastards grind you down" - "Luck ain't even luck, you gotta make your own breaks" - "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

I survived this thing, and will come out the other side better. It was far from easy. But it was a life altering experience. I could have gone either way at a few points, but I always chose to fight, even when it was NOT a fair fight.

A lot of this happened because I was weak and vulnerable with terrible self esteem. Never again. Because at 47, I am finally growing up. And I think that is one measure of being a man, not that life throws things at you, but that you handle them with as much strength and dignity as you can and come out the other side standing.

I am doing all kinds of things that are new to me and very positive, and I'm having an absolute blast doing it. I'm coming out if my safe zone, so to speak. And that is really important.

I guess it's a measure of how good life currently is that my list of stuff to build is gathering dust.

Throwing up all day in the men's room wasn't nearly as productive of an outlet for stress.