... I think the perception of things "female" as being at root inferior to things "male" is particularly involved w. marginalization of gay males.

I think that it also accounts for the particularly virulent strain of homophobia that attaches to gay men as compared to lesbians and even more specifically to gay men who are perceived as "feminine" as opposed to those who are not perceived that way.

There are other things... various social dynamics.... at work here but denigration of the female is not unrelated.

And yet homophobia against lesbians seems to contradict this.

Of course, you could counter that male homophobes resent women who act "butch" because it threatens to subvert the power claimed by the Patriarchy, but that is akin to having your cake and eating it too.

Even among homophobic men, there exists an attitude of respect, even reverence, for the feminine. How then can the feminine aspect manifested in men be the reason for homophobia?

Similarly, if masculine attributes are as revered as this suggests, why then the homophobia towards lesbians?

If one is inclined to win the argument at any costs, no matter how many logical pretzels one creates in the process, one could claim that it is the Patriarchy defending itself against any challengers. But that to me is the work of someone with an unalterably preconceived viewpoint that is determined to blame men for everything.

some observations:
>>>And yet homophobia against lesbians seems to contradict this. >>>

Not to minimize the effects of anti-lesbianism in the culture (and it's destructive impact on individuals) but I think we can reasonably make some distinctions. There is a special, particularly pointed and aggressive variety of animus that abounds in the culture that is directed *specifically* toward gay males.

One can see it in the suicide stats. One doesn't hear much about young lesbians jumping off of bridges and hanging themselves. No, I don't have the stats handy and will be happy to be proven wrong but I think we can probably get general agreement that gay male adolescents are a *particularly* vulnerable psychological demographic in that respect.

One can see it and hear it in everyday interactions... particularly if one is around young people a lot. Here:
http://www.nohomophobes.com/#!/today/

Most teachers would back me up on this. There is greater latitude regarding homosexuality and bisexuality and gender non-conformity afforded to females than there is toward males. Multiple reasons for this not the least of which is that a lot of hetero men find lesbianism "interesting"; but not many straight women find male homosexuality interesting in the same way.( They don't know what they're missing. Tee-hee.)

Anyway .... apples and oranges. There is unquestionably hostility in the culture directed toward lesbians. But it ain't as sharp, serious, universal and lethal and I don't think it "means" the same thing. ( i.e. in terms of more general attitudes toward "male" and "female".)

>>>Even among homophobic men, there exists an attitude of respect, even reverence, for the feminine. How then can the feminine aspect manifested in men be the reason for homophobia? >>>>
I don't see a lot of evidence for this. Femininity is something straight males like to see in WOMEN. I'm not sure they "revere" it. They may be intrigued by it, but that's far from the same thing. In any case they don't , for the most part , want to see it in themselves... or in other persons of their gender. When they do see it in men it upsets their sense of order; perhaps reminding them uncomfortably that most of this stuff is societally imposed; i.e. a social fiction. But it remains an important part of how he ( the prototypical and hypothetical "straight man&quot sees himself.

>>>If one is inclined to win the argument at any costs, no matter how many logical pretzels one creates in the process, one could claim that it is the Patriarchy defending itself against any challengers. But that to me is the work of someone with an unalterably preconceived viewpoint that is determined to blame men for everything. >>>>

I'm sort of out of the loop on this aspect. Sounds a lot like 70's ( 2nd wave?) feminism... which I thought we had ( necessarily) passed through but now were on to more nuanced ( and productive) discussion of these things.

I was actually wanting to start a thread on homophobia in here based on some things I was reading elsewhere (now, I can't remember the damn sites! ).

From what I have learned by experience and study, is that homophobia is a cultural stigma based in issues with sex, sexuality, and intimacy. Homophobia also has deep roots in religion, as well. Some forms of homophobia do appear to have ties to sexism against women. The problem with creating a clear explanation as to "where does it come from" is that it comes from different places, from different people, and under different circumstances.

Of course, some of it also rooted deeply into sexist stereotypes of masculinity and femininity. IMHO, this is what most people use as a basis to enforce their tightly held beliefs (issues) with sexuality. It also is used to as an opportunity for others to exploit sexism (against women/men), which just complicates the hell out of the situation. I also when people use our accomplishments to bash others.

I have experienced many forms of homophobia, from being called a "faggot," amongst other things, to, of course, not being allowed to marry my partner of 11.5 years. All forms of homophobia (personal (individual)/societal/institutional) affect me in almost a daily basis. However, I feel there is hope because I do changes, and that makes me very happy!

Ask me anything!

I preface this by saying thanks for allowing me to ask a difficult and somewhat non-pc like question and by giving us the room to speak openly without fear of offense. I think such a space is necessary in order to really increase understanding and promote unity between all men.

To what degree is the narrowness with regards to how some define male behavior (aggressive, unemotional, mansplaining, etc.) responsible for SOME gay men feeling the desire to separate themselves from such "overtly male" stereotypes. The more obvious examples that come to mind are the exaggerated way of speaking or moving that SOME gay men have.

If we had a broader identity as men, would their be fewer gay men who feel the need to behave in ways that are somewhat caricature-like?

I don't know I can explain it fully, but I will try to apply what I know. I think some gay men "act" certain ways because those are the images we grew up with, and still see in many media applications. It is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, or rite of passage. The gays who have an "obvious" stage sometimes see themselves as being the "real" gays, and any gay (this is mainly men, but does apply to lesbians), who doesn't fit into a stereotype is a sell-out, closet case, or assimilationist.

As roles for gays and lesbians change, we are seeing much less of the over-exaggerated mannerisms and the like. Of course, you do have to take into consideration, some people are just more 'masculine/feminine' than others, and there can also be other issues. Using myself as an example, I talk with my hands quite a bit and am very demonstrative, well, so is the majority of my family (men and women). I also walk with a "switch", but that has everything to do with poor ankle formation, so I compensate by walking on the insteps of my feet. I also have a higher voice than most men, can't help that at all.

Does that help?

And yes, you can ask me non-PC questions; I know you aren't using this situation to attack me or belittle homophobia.

I once asked a very, very prominent gay activist about why some gay men speak with the affected "lisp" and he admitted he could not offer a good answer.

I certainly do agree that all people contain both feminine and masculine aspects and I suspect that largely the homophobia is a rejection of the feminine side of the person so that he/she can fit more easily into the societal expectations. In keeping with this thought, it is clear that men are more tightly bound and yes, victimized, by society constrictions. If you don't believe it, try to talk to a child at a playground or sit next to a child on a bus and see how you are viewed with suspicion if you try to be friendly. --Just tonight, on DU, someone implied that I was a rapist. Women feel free to throw their fists around because they think their lack of physical strength will protect them from appropriate charges of violence, but I digress...

The reason that I wanted to start this thread was to discuss the subject of homophobia, but I also want to make the point that not everything related to men and their identity has something to do with women. Furthermore, I found it somewhat nauseating to see this subject used so cynically and in such a tone-deaf manner to make a point that has only to do with feminism.

It was in very bad taste and provided a perfect example of extreme myopic egocentrism.

When I was a presenter, I discussed many "positive" stereotypes and how they really aren't all that positive, though they seem as such. As an example, "all gay men are attractive." A very positive stereotype; or so it would seem. Think of the damage it does to gay men who are average or unattractive. Are they suddenly "less gay" or not gay at all? It also affects others, such as attractive men who aren't gay.

The example about children I have discussed before. I don't go near children if I can help it at all. Partly because I don't care for them (though I love babies), but also because there is a part of me that always worries I will be accused of sexual abuse, even with female children. It is homophobia so deeply rooted in me, that is really does affect me and how I deal with some situations. Which, IMO, goes back to what I was saying about buying into stereotypes, including how gay/lesbians are supposed to sound, act, appear, and be.

Homophobia is very complex, like most bigotries.

If not for you (perhaps you'd like kids if you could feel comfortable around them) but also for the kids who are denied exposure to one-half of the human template. They grow up to be men (and women) who have learned that men aren't supposed to interact with kids.

I am actually very good with children, and have mentored them in many situations. That said, I will go out of my way to make sure I am never in a situation where I am alone with them or in the presence of a homophobe and children are present. My attitude is more from my mom. She doesn't care for children either, but loves her children, grandchildren, and nephews and nieces. I am the same, I love my extended family, but I do admit, I worry about being around them at times. Of course, I am the good uncle because I send money and cool gifts (sent a drum set to my 4yo nephew, but that was about getting back at my brother. ).

Of course, it doesn't stop with children. IRL, I don't have straight male friends. I have almost never had them. The only exception was when I was in HS and in college before I came out of the closet. I don't associate with straight men, except here. When I do encounter straight men, I generally avoid eye contact, and almost never touch them, though I tend to be a touchy-feely type person. The one thing I have really come to enjoy about DU is that I can freely associate with straight men, and don't have to worry about what they are thinking. It is my own prejudice I have about straight men; in some respects, I fear them. It isn't rational, but years of taunting, years of accusations of appropriate behavior (including one that almost cost me my job), and years of hate directed at me, I have just given up. Personally, I find that to be sad, because I am sure there are some wonderful men with whom I could have a good relationship...and I just don't.

Not the part about not liking kids; I mean, in that case it's no great loss- but the societal stuff around abuse and those abhorrent stereotypes about gay men.

I've written a bit about looking at that stuff from the other angle; i.e. that of a parent who is obviously wary about ANY excessive "interest" in my kids that could indicate something bad. And yes, absolutely, men are looked at far more skeptically than women- even by me, and I'm a man... but certainly not, in my case at least, Gay men more than Hetero ones. It's more ALL men, and one can talk it into the ground, it's still there.

But the fact is, kids' lives these days are often so programmed, it's pretty unlikely that one would just casually find themselves in a situation with someone else's kids that might even lead to raised eyebrows. Usually in most coach or mentor situations you are with a whole bunch of people- most parents aren't, like, "here, random adult, take my kids off all by yourself" ...obviously, if you're the babysitter, it's a different story.

And again, I think some of the social stuff you get- unfortunately- is tied to where you are in the Country. I just don't think the blue areas of the West Coast are nearly as backwards-ass as some places in this country can be around this stuff.

Of course, at the end of the day (Hi, Bonobo! ) if you don't WANT to be around kids or have that role model or mentoring interaction, that's cool- it's not for everyone, and frankly if I weren't a parent probably the last thing I would be doing is spending large amounts of time around little kids (if I never hear that damn Raffi CD again, it will be too soon) ... but like I said, it makes me sad that there is this wariness specifically tied to these horribly bigoted and awful stereotypes.

I am too lazy to rewrite it. LOL!

It is a shame, however, how I have come to feel about being around children in some respects. Don't get me wrong, I love my nephews and nieces, and if I had children, I would love them unconditionally too. Many gay men feel the way I do, and even though we are seeing more and more have/adopt children, I have spoken to more than a few who are terrified of perceptions. What really threw me for a loop? I had a discussion with a few lesbian friends who also felt this way (afraid of children)! I'd honestly never thought it was an issue among lesbians (and I am guessing bisexual women). Personally, it showed me how destructive homophobia really was, that so many of us seem to carry this in the backs of our minds.

There are a number of societal homophobia issues which seem to affect some more than others, but the fear of being accused of being a pedophile seems to be almost universal, especially among gay and bisexual men. Of course, the great irony is we are the ones least likely to be actual child molesters, but it sure as hell hasn't stopped that myth.

I have all kinds of personal sob stories when it comes to homophobia. Some have been really painful and still hurt me; others were upsetting at the time, and some just rolled off my back. I have actually thought about writing an OP on how homophobia and heterosexism have affected my life and the lives of those I love. You'll laugh, you'll cry, it'll become a pert of you!

Okay, maybe not such good news for you.

But even guys with really cool stage names are paid only 20% of women porn actresses.

"Luberjack Jeff stars in "bar oil".

I think I'll stick to my day job.

I could not, for the life of me, figure out what you two were going on about! I was pronouncing it in my head as "luh-Burr", you know, like a "landlubber". And, then, when I spelled it (the previous word) out, I realized, the misspelling wasn't "luh-Burr", but "loo-Burr."

At least I could bring some mirth to an otherwise downer of a thread (the topic, not the comments, per se).

Not many other classes have to worry about their own families discriminating against them. Add to this zero protection from discrimination under federal law and the denial of a basic right to marriage in most states that other classes don't have to deal with.

All bigotries are ugly. Homophobia is more so than most.

The sad thing is how much shit we still have to endure, and some of it, from supposedly "progressive/liberal" people. Marriage is a big one now, especially for me, even more so because of where I live (Oklahoma). Before we returned to OK, there was a story about a gay couple in Tulsa (well, outside of Tulsa), and when one of the partners died, after 27 years of being together, a third cousin...yes, a THIRD cousin, swooped in, challenged the will, and WON! He kicked the living partner OUT THIER OWN HOME! I discovered the state, itself, can actually challenge the will! I don't know what would happen to me if something happened to my partner (G-D forbid), because I don't know how his parents would react (he has no siblings, but there are all kinds of cousins). Now, as for my family, my mother is under strict orders to take out anyone...anyone, who challenges my partner in the event of my passing. My mother may be older and a little thing, but you really don't want to piss her off. So, my partner is well protected, which makes me very happy!

I lived in Tulsa for a few years.

The problem is this narrow minded shit is legitimized by people who elect politicians who will hide behind organized religion as a defense of their bigotry. People who use religion to justify hate should be called out for it and they aren't nearly enough.

Bigotry is not limited to one class. While it might be true that many misogynists are also homophobes, that doesn't mean one always causes the other and the two can always be conflated. That was the implication I got.

One doesn't necessarily predict the other, or is even related in all cases. I don't like when homophobia is co-opted. IMO, it belittles homophobia, especially homophobia against men.

I live in Japan, as you know.

One of the things that I love about it is that boys and men touch each other a lot more than in the US.

It also makes me sad because it is so hard for me. It makes me self-conscious and uncomfortable even though I want to be able to share this form of closeness.

It really surprised me, but it is so beautiful. To see 14 year old boys, friends, sit un-selfconsciously with ones head leaning against a friend's shoulder... For a man to hug you from behind to show affection... As an American man, it really made me feel how much we are missing and how victimized we are by society's shackles.

Women talk about their shackles and yes, I know they exist. But it seems to me that in many ways they are more free. Free to dress in dress or pants, free to wear makeup or not, free to wait to be approached by a man or to make the moves herself, free to find a career or (more likely than a man anyway) to try to find a partner to support her, free to devote herself to her children -or not, free to show emotions without being reproached, etc.

I am sure their answer would be that it is the Patriarchy setting the rules and therefore "you did it to yourself"...sort of blaming the victim if you ask me.

Anyway, I see this as strongly related to male homophobia.

I don't know much about Japanese culture (I did study some history and mythology), but sounds similar to Middle Eastern norms, as far as contact between males. It does cast an ugly light on how we relate to other men. One of the things I used to present was pictures of what many perceived as attractive men. When I asked male participants to rate them; they couldn't. However, when I had pictures of less than attractive or ugly men, and asked them to rate them; no problem! What I was demonstrating was how men are uncomfortable expressing anything which could be seen as expressing attraction for another male. In reality, of course, if you can rank the unattractiveness of someone, it means you have a standard of what is and isn't attractive and you should be able to easily rank attractiveness.

I will say that I think homophobia in general, and homophobia among men, is a complex issue with multiple apparent causes or tie-ins. I do NOT think that the role of religion can or should be discounted, minimized or under-played. I think it is a gross oversimplification- and a misreading of the situation- to claim that homophobia is simply driven by misogyny, because hetero men see gay men as they see women, and as such gay men are really just a proxy for hatred of women.

Misogyny is real, I do believe there are people who hate women, just as there are people who hate... well, lots of different kinds of people. ...but I don't think misogyny from men towards women is expressed the same way that homophobia between men is expressed. Nor do I think the causes are the same.

(And this is leaving aside trying to clear up a definition of 'misogyny' which is often taken to include many forms of sexual attraction from men towards women- not unwanted advances, not harassment, but the attraction itself, when it is based upon superficial physical characteristics or appearance or an expression of 'wanting to have sex with', which is taken, again, somehow as an indication of "hate" That's a whole additional can of worms)

That's not to say that there isn't some overlap between men- particularly overly traditional, and particularly religious fundamentalist (again) men who look down on women and similarly look down on gay men. If there's a sexual angle to it all, I'd have to say that at it's core it has to contain a good deal of self-loathing; if you reflexively hate anyone who might be attracted to someone like you, what does that say about how you feel about yourself?


Hmmmm. Gee, whiz! That really might be food for thought, might'nt it?... Ahem.

I also think there is a relationship, definitely, between some homophobia and cultural expectations (of the tired, leave it to beaver sort) of what it supposedly means to "be a man". Or to be brave, or strong, or whatever- Which is ridiculous, of course, because some of the most bad-ass, brave and strong men I know of were/are also Gay.

My experiences with homophobia growing up were that it was sort of akin to the idea of "cooties". (Or, maybe Communism under the HUAC) If you weren't sufficiently and vocally anti-gay, you might get accused of being gay yourself, and then God knows what might happen..... but which all ties back into the idea someone, somewhere promulgated that being gay was this inherently horrible thing. And it did not escape the notice of the smarter, nerdier, glasses-wearing creative kids that it was often low-valence meathead goons who were using anti-gay rhetoric and slurs against us smart, nerdy, glasses-wearing creative types, regardless of who we were attracted to.

So it seemed to me that somewhere between 1990 and 1999, mostly, a large portion of the hetero male members of my generation collectively went "Er, why the fuck should I care if someone is Gay"? And that was pretty much that. The generation after mine, even better, seems to have popped into adulthood with this sensibility already installed.

And geographics does play a big role. I consider myself fortunate that I live in a part of the country where being gay is literally the sort of thing that no one bats an eye over, not anymore, not for a long time. (Sadly, yes, I know our state constitution doesn't reflect that... but I am confident it will, soon)

Homophobia isn't an expression of hatred of women.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/joe-bell-gay-teen-cross-country-walk-_n_3132550.html

Conflating other classes as proof of cause seems to be quite common vis-a-vis "white male privilege".

Thinking over my entire adults life, I really can only think of two instances when I was harassed by gay men who were not already smashed. One was a university professor, the other was just a random weirdo I worked with. If you include those who were drunk the number is maybe a dozen. And I'm not sure I consider a drunk slurred proposition to be harassment.

Most of the statements I hear from men that would be perceived as homophobic are much more oriented to the flamboyant behavior than a sense that Elton John is going to pull him into an alley and rape him.